In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Are you trying to claim that a battery in certain state of discharge cannot
be charged by a battery that is fully charged if the batteries are connected
in a circuit?

CN

If they are "Series Connected", that is exactly what I am saying, and
claiming, and all your Dufus Theories, will not change the Physical
Laws involved.

Me who wonders if you are going to answer "Bruce in alaska"'s
question......

In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the
battery.
A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together.
It is but
a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE
electrons.


Ahhhh, I see you have answer the question that I asked you, in a
previous post.

So, it is your contention that the battery "STORES" up electrons
inside it when you charge it, and then releases these same electrons
when it dicharges and they go over to the Load and do work? Right?

Do you agree with this statement?
Inquiring minds would certainly like to know what your exact position is
on the above.


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases
electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit
that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons)
can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of
some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an
electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is
not
a circuit.

CN


It is obvious from the above that CN, has absolutly no intelectual
knowledge of how wet cell batteries work, and the chemical reactions
that are involved, in both the charging and discharging of said wet cell
batteries.

He says that electrons are put into a wet cell battery during charging
and then they are released from said battery when discharging to preform
work at the load.

Now, we who have been wondering about his state of Education, surmise
that he never got out of Grammar School, and has a Grammer School
Inteligence view of the Laws of Physics and Chemistry.

Since this is now, obviously the case, it will serve all the rest of us
here to just let him go on thinking that his view is correct, for it
does work for him, and we can move on to weightier questions.

No amount of Posts are ever going to bring CN, into the real world,
because he doesn't have the education to understand the chemical
reactions, and Laws of Physics that apply to the subject at hand.

His simplistic view of the world, works for him, and he see's no reason
to educate himself otherwise. The rest of us know better, but there is
just "NO Hope of charging his brain with the required knowlege". To
high of "Internal Resistance".


Bruce in alaska who can understand "Me's" point
--
add a 2 before @

"Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the
battery.
A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together.
It is but
a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE
electrons.


Ahhhh, I see you have answer the question that I asked you, in a
previous post.

So, it is your contention that the battery "STORES" up electrons
inside it when you charge it, and then releases these same electrons
when it dicharges and they go over to the Load and do work? Right?

Do you agree with this statement?

Not what I said. I said a battery is a tank that uses chemical reactions
to store or release electrons. But my main point is there is no circuit and
no conductor (as a conductor in usually defined) inside a battery.

There are a series of plate, positive and negative. The fact that, if there
is no circuit connected externally to the poles of the battery, it stores
chemically the potential to provide electricity to the external circuit,
proves my contention that there is no internal circuit as the so-called
engineers are contending.

CN

In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

I'm not trolling here. I'm attempting to educate some folks who need it.

CN

Ever heard of "blind leading the blind", Dufus? You couldn't educate
your way out of "Wet Paper Bag".....


Me

"Gary Schafer" wrote in message news
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:33:47 -0400, Capt. Neal®
wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message .. .
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery

Utter ********.


Utter truth. A lead/acid yacht battery stores electrical potential in the plates via chemical reaction.
If there was a circuit within the battery it would not take or store a charge.


CN

Maybe you would like to explain to us how current gets from one cell
in a battery to the next so that each cell gets charged when a charger
is hooked to the battery.


Duh! The plates are hardwired together and connected to either the positive
or negative poles, but not to each other, as would be the case in the minds
of those claiming an internal circuit.


I am also still waiting for you to explain how one discharged cell in
a battery gets charged from the other cells in the battery by only
putting a load on the battery. As I am sure you know that discharged
cell will be trying to get charged with it's positive terminal hooked
to the negative terminal of the cell that is supposed to be doing the
charging.

Duh, since the positive plates and the negative plates in each cell are
hard wired together with all the other positive and negative plates but
not hardwired negative to positive and vice versa, to make a circuit as
some claim, and if one cell is discharged to say 1.5 volts while connected
to cells charged to 2.2 volts in a circuit with some sort of load between
the positive and negative battery terminals the discharged cell takes on
a charge just as if a battery charger were connected. The discharged
cell doesn't know anything other than the higher voltage is reversing it's
chemical reaction from a discharging reaction to a charging reaction.

If the battery was a conductor internally, tell me why as you charge
a discharged battery the amperage it takes gets less and less until it
tapers down to almost nothing. If the cells were connected by a circuit
inside the amperage would be constant.

CN

In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Sorry, I'm an expert yacht electrician and I used to teach 12v electrical
circuits at one time. I know of which I speak.

CN

If this is an example of your Electrical Knowlege, then all your
students should ask for Refunds as well, because they got short-changed
in Basic Electrical Theory, and Battery Theory and Chemisty.
Jeeeze Louise, I can't even imagine an Institution that would allow
an instructor to spew such "Absolute Billge", knowingly. They did fire
you for incompetance? Tell us the truth.


Me

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...
You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You
charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there
exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a
charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher
than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and
the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction
reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and
electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers
fall prey to it.

Say Capt'n, why don't you hook up an ampere meter in your circuit and tell
me what sign the reading has when charging and discharging. Or are going to
argue the principle of ammeters too?


Like I said in another post elsewhere, I'm not arguing with ammeter readings.
I AM saying, since an ammeter is connected in series external to the battery,
it tells you nothing about there being a circuit inside the battery. It only tells
you whether electrons flow into or out of the battery. There does not have
to be an internal circuit for electrons to flow. Chemical reactions take the place
of a circuit. These self-limiting chemical reactions change the composition of the
positive and negative plates; they do not conduct electricity.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Gary Schafer" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:33:47 -0400, Capt. Neal®
wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .

Capt. Neal® wrote:

Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of
a battery


Utter ********.



Utter truth. A lead/acid yacht battery stores electrical potential in
the plates via chemical reaction.
If there was a circuit within the battery it would not take or store
a charge.


CN


Maybe you would like to explain to us how current gets from one cell
in a battery to the next so that each cell gets charged when a charger
is hooked to the battery.



Duh! The plates are hardwired together and connected to either the positive
or negative poles, but not to each other, as would be the case in the minds
of those claiming an internal circuit.


I am also still waiting for you to explain how one discharged cell in
a battery gets charged from the other cells in the battery by only
putting a load on the battery. As I am sure you know that discharged
cell will be trying to get charged with it's positive terminal hooked
to the negative terminal of the cell that is supposed to be doing the
charging.


Duh, since the positive plates and the negative plates in each cell are
hard wired together with all the other positive and negative plates but
not hardwired negative to positive and vice versa, to make a circuit as
some claim, and if one cell is discharged to say 1.5 volts while connected
to cells charged to 2.2 volts in a circuit with some sort of load between
the positive and negative battery terminals the discharged cell takes on
a charge just as if a battery charger were connected. The discharged
cell doesn't know anything other than the higher voltage is reversing it's
chemical reaction from a discharging reaction to a charging reaction.

If the battery was a conductor internally, tell me why as you charge
a discharged battery the amperage it takes gets less and less until it
tapers down to almost nothing. If the cells were connected by a circuit
inside the amperage would be constant.

CN


If "since the positive plates and the negative plates in each cell are
hard wired together with all the other positive and negative plates
but not hardwired negative to positive and vice versa" how does a
battery ever acheive 12 volts. That would put all the cells in parallel
and since a lead acid wet cell is 2.2 volts, on average, the battery
would only have 2.2 volts.
krj

"Me" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Are you trying to claim that a battery in certain state of discharge cannot
be charged by a battery that is fully charged if the batteries are connected
in a circuit?

CN

If they are "Series Connected", that is exactly what I am saying, and
claiming, and all your Dufus Theories, will not change the Physical
Laws involved.

Me who wonders if you are going to answer "Bruce in alaska"'s
question......

I think I just answered that one of will soon if I missed it.

Do something for me. Take a flashlight that uses two AA batteries in series and put
a discharged ni-cad AA cell and a fully charged ni-cad into it. Turn on the switch and
let it run for about ten minutes. Remove the batteries and check them with a volt
meter. You will find the dead cell is no longer dead. Some of the electrons flowing
through it in the circuit driven by the good battery will have driven the chemical
reaction in the direction that stores electrons.

The very same thing will happen with two 12v batteries in series in a circuit.

CN