"Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases
electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit
that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons)
can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of
some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an
electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is
not
a circuit.

CN


It is obvious from the above that CN, has absolutly no intelectual
knowledge of how wet cell batteries work, and the chemical reactions
that are involved, in both the charging and discharging of said wet cell
batteries.

He says that electrons are put into a wet cell battery during charging
and then they are released from said battery when discharging to preform
work at the load.

Now, we who have been wondering about his state of Education, surmise
that he never got out of Grammar School, and has a Grammer School
Inteligence view of the Laws of Physics and Chemistry.

Since this is now, obviously the case, it will serve all the rest of us
here to just let him go on thinking that his view is correct, for it
does work for him, and we can move on to weightier questions.

No amount of Posts are ever going to bring CN, into the real world,
because he doesn't have the education to understand the chemical
reactions, and Laws of Physics that apply to the subject at hand.

His simplistic view of the world, works for him, and he see's no reason
to educate himself otherwise. The rest of us know better, but there is
just "NO Hope of charging his brain with the required knowlege". To
high of "Internal Resistance".


You haven't read the post where I clarified your above misconception by
explaining lead/acid batteries don't store electrons per se but use
electrons provided in the charging process to drive chemical reactions
that change the composition of the plates and set them up for chemical
reactions in the other direction that changes the composition of the
plates back with an attendant release of electrons via the chemical
reactions. One could say electrons are stored vicariously.

CN

"Keith Hughes" wrote in message ...


Capt. Neal® wrote:

Do something for me. Take a flashlight that uses two AA batteries in series and put
a discharged ni-cad AA cell and a fully charged ni-cad into it. Turn on the switch and
let it run for about ten minutes. Remove the batteries and check them with a volt
meter. You will find the dead cell is no longer dead. Some of the

*******eletrons flowing through it******** in the circuit driven by the
good battery will have driven

From the mouths of babes...or, in this case, cretins. Thus does the good Cap'n put paid to his own ludicrous 'theory'. Methinks
the boy may have seen the light :-) Oops, sorry, had an attack of blind screamin' optimism there for a moment.

Keith

Semantics and an honest mistake explained in the post above. Here is a cut
and paste for your edification.

***************

Thanks for pointing out that inconsistency. My bad.

Semantics again, but you are correct. I should have said some of the electrons
flowing through the circuit (external) will drive the chemical reaction in the
discharged battery so it's state of charge will be increased.

Even though the positive and negative poles are on opposite ends of an AA
cell, electricity does not really flow through from end to end as there is
no internal circuit as such - just chemical reactions as in a lead/acid battery.

But let's not miss the point by pointing out semantics discrepancies. The fact
is the discharged cell will take on some charge from the circuit. The same
goes for two 12v lead/acid batteries in a circuit.

CN

"Keith Hughes" wrote in message ...
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Care to argue with that?


Easy to argue with that. Electrons only "flow" in a conductor. A chemical
reaction is NOT a conductor. Electrons don't flow in a chemical reaction.

Duh, do a Google search on "Redox" reactions. Electron flow is exactly what's happening.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction.

These particular chemical reactions just happen to change the metal composition
in such a way as to change back and forth metals that store or release electrons
up the plates and out the top and not along a circuit through the electrolyte.
There is no "flow" in the traditional sense of the word between the positive
and negative plates. No circuit. Where there is no circuit there is no flow.

Dude, you've been draggin' your appendage in the dirt so long on this one, you could see the lines from Soyuz. Give it up. Cretin.

Hope this helps,


I right. Why should I give up? It looks like it is you who have tossed in
the towel. I seem to be making inroads into the ignorance.

CN

Keith wrote:

..this little spat looks as though the 'great' are taking on the 'good'..

.. to the consternation of those - like me - who would appreciate a
definitive answer..

Any chance of MOBbing in an expert? This thread ain't gonna go away, is
it..?


Hmmm... take a vote. One one side, we have the good captain. On the
other side, everyone else.

Andy

Capt. Neal® wrote:

Semantics

....is the only basis of your argument. Thus it's hardly appropriate to
use it as a excuse also.

and an honest mistake

No mistake, in that instance you were correct.

explained in the post above. Here is a cut
and paste for your edification.

None needed, but thanks.

Thanks for pointing out that inconsistency. My bad.

Semantics again, but you are correct. I should have said some of the
electrons
flowing through the circuit (external) will drive the chemical reaction
in the
discharged battery so it's state of charge will be increased.

Even though the positive and negative poles are on opposite ends of an AA
cell, electricity does not really flow through from end to end as there is
no internal circuit as such - just chemical reactions as in a lead/acid
battery.

Look at any electronics reference, closely, and maybe you'll see your
mistake. Quite simply, there is electron transport (i.e. electric
current by classical definition - not to be confused with the
Tricoboxylic Citric Acid Cycle, or Krebs cycle, or oxidative
phosphorylation for e.g.) external to the battery, under load, and there
is a concomitant *ION* transport occurring internal to the battery.
Both currents reverse going from discharge to charge. Now, pay
attention: how do you make an ion? Answer, remove or add electrons. Thus
Ion flow is nothing more than electron transport (i.e. current flow)
using an electrolytic intermediary. That's what redox systems are all about.

So...there is a current flow (via ionic intermediaries) within the
battery. Semantical pretenses aside, electrons are moving both inside
and outside. Get it??? No, I didn't think so.

Keith

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:07:39 -0400, Capt. Neal®
wrote:


"Me" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Are you trying to claim that a battery in certain state of discharge cannot
be charged by a battery that is fully charged if the batteries are connected
in a circuit?

CN

If they are "Series Connected", that is exactly what I am saying, and
claiming, and all your Dufus Theories, will not change the Physical
Laws involved.

Me who wonders if you are going to answer "Bruce in alaska"'s
question......

I think I just answered that one of will soon if I missed it.

Do something for me. Take a flashlight that uses two AA batteries in series and put
a discharged ni-cad AA cell and a fully charged ni-cad into it. Turn on the switch and
let it run for about ten minutes. Remove the batteries and check them with a volt
meter. You will find the dead cell is no longer dead. Some of the electrons flowing
through it in the circuit driven by the good battery will have driven the chemical
reaction in the direction that stores electrons.

The very same thing will happen with two 12v batteries in series in a circuit.

CN

Oh yea, it will charge the dead battery all right. Only problem is it
will charge it the wrong way! You will be reverse charging the dead
cell because the charging cell is hooked up backwards to it!

The good cell's positive terminal is hooked to the dead cells negative
terminal through the light bulb. And the good cell's negative terminal
is hooked to the dead cell's positive terminal.

That sure looks like reverse charge time to me. What do you think?

Regards
Gary

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

Easy to argue with that. Electrons only "flow" in a conductor. A chemical
reaction is NOT a conductor. Electrons don't flow in a chemical reaction.

Well, you picture you quoted clearly says so. And apart from that, an
electrolyte IS an conductor, that is why it is called an electrolyte.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction.

Indeed, with movement of electrons, as in Redox reactions.

These particular chemical reactions just happen to change the metal
composition
in such a way as to change back and forth metals that store or release
electrons
up the plates and out the top and not along a circuit through the
electrolyte.
There is no "flow" in the traditional sense of the word between the
positive
and negative plates. No circuit. Where there is no circuit there is no
flow.

Ah, and where there is no brain, there is no sense in arguing......
I rest my case.

Meindert

Capt. Neal® wrote:
"Pete Verdon" d wrote
Capt. Neal® wrote:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

does not reverse the
current as most dumb engineers claim.

Oh? So how come the little arrow marked "I" (current) has changed
direction between the third and fourth pictures?

Duh! That is an EXTERNAL circuit. Note how there is never an arrow
shown inside the battery - only chemical reactions shown because
there is no internal circuit.

That's lovely. I'm not discussing whether there's a circuit inside the
battery. I'm addressing your claim that current in the external circuit
flows the same way for charging and discharging/use. The picture you
pointed to quite clearly contradicts that claim.

Pete

Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Ronald Raygun" wrote

Therefore charge does travel through the battery. We have a complete
circuit, with external flow of electrons and internal flow of H+ ions.

There's where I disagree. Charge does not 'travel through' the inside
of a battery.

The battery is empty when all the sulphuric acid is used up and has been
turned into lead sulphate on both plates. Let's look at the battery just
before it's completely empty, when the last ten dissociated H2SO4 molecules
are still swimming around, and let's consider what happens from then until
they're all gone.

Your diagram shows the dissociation of H2SO4 as partial into H+ and HSO4-,
but in some ways it's easier to think in terms of full dissociation into
2H+ and SO4--. It makes no difference to the bottom line in terms of
charge accounting, it's just a little more confusing to work with the
partially dissociated model.

Think of these 10 molecules as spread out uniformly through the remaining
electrolyte, and let's have the battery oriented with its - terminal (Pb
plate) in the West and the + terminal (PbO2 plate) in the East, and let's
imagine the electrolyte divided into five vertical slices perpendicular
to the East-West line, and let there be two molecules (i.e. two SO4-- ions
and four H+ ions) in each slice. Call the slices A, B, C, D, E, with A
adjacent to the West plate and E to the East plate.

On average, one of the SO4-- from each slice will end up on each of the
plates, and all four H+ will take part only in the Eastern reaction.
The plate reactions a

West: Pb + SO4-- + 2H+ -- PbSO4 + 2H+ + 2e-
East: PbO2 + SO4-- + 4H+ + 2e- -- PbSO4 + 2H2O

Pragmatically, though, both SO4-- ions from both A and B will go West,
while both from both D and E will go East. From C, one will go West and
one East. But all H+ from all cells will go East.

We must have a neutral charge change within each slice, but as you'll see,
there will be charge flowing across all slice boundaries.

At the boundary between the West plate and slice A, A's own two SO4-- ions
will travel West, as will the three which came passing through from slices
B and C. Net flow across this boundary: -10 West.

At the AB boundary, we have A's 4 H+ going East, and B's and C's three
SO4-- coming West. So as far as slice A goes, we have -10 going out on
the Western front, -6 coming in from the East (subtotal -4 out), and A's
four H+ going out East. Final charge total is neutral *for the slice*,
but of course at the *boudaries* we have a net flow -10W in the W and
-6W and +4E in the East, which is equivalent to -10W.

Slice B: Its two SO4-- go West, one SO4-- passes through EW from C, all
its 4 H+ go East and A's 4 H+ pass through WE. Since all the "passers
through" cancel out, the net change to B is -4W and +4E which is neutral,
but the BC boundary has one SO4-- going West (-2W) and eight H+ going
east (+8E) which again is equivalent to -10W.

Slice C: One of its SO4-- goes West, one East. Net -4 out so far. All
its 4H+ go East. Net neutral. 8H+ passing through West to East.
CD boundary: one SO4-- East (-2E) 12H+ East (+12E). Net +10E which
is equivalent to -10W.

I'll leave what happens in slices D and E and at the D/E and E/Eplate
boundaries as an exercise.

The crux is that that no matter where you "slice" the electrolyte,
there will be charge flowing across that slice boundary, equal to -10
going West inside the battery for every -10 going East outside the
battery.

There is no conductor

The electrolyte is sulphuric acid. I think you'll find that's a conductor.
It's a water based solutions with ions, i.e. charge carriers, swimming
around in it. If more charge carriers swim one way than the other,
then you have a net flow of charge, i.e. a current, and that makes the
medium a conductor.

Ronald Raygun wrote:

The crux is that that no matter where you "slice" the electrolyte,
there will be charge flowing across that slice boundary, equal to -10
going West inside the battery for every -10 going East outside the
battery.

In particular, if you were in reality to slice the electrolyte and
block it off, by building a plastic wall in the middle of the cell,
in effect making two cells, one with just the - plate in it, and and one
with just the + plate, then no current would flow on the outside.

Deny that!!

No current would flow on the ouside *because* no current can flow on
the inside either. Blocking off the electrolyte shuts the circuit
down every bit as much as would cutting the wire.