On Sun, 09 May 2004 15:46:35 GMT, Gualtier Malde
wrote:

Bart wrote:
Are boats like the Tayana 37 still popular and still a good choice for
ocean crossings?

I've crawled in and out of a few boats during the past couple weeks
and it looks to me that the heavy displacment boats are just built a
lot better than the mid to light displacement ones. This is
especially true in the price range I can afford (less than $100k).

Most of the heavy displacement boats also have more storage because
the tanks are usually located in the bilge leaving the settees free
for storage. This appears to be another plus.

When comparing open ocean vessels, Is the performace between a heavy
and mid displacment boat really all that much different? If not, then
maybe I wouldn't get bored with a lower performance heavy displacment
vessel. I'm not sure about this and would like comments.

Most heavy displacement boats have bow sprits. If a boat has a 5'
bowsprit, do you add that into the total length of the boat when
computing moorage charges? It would be ashame to get charged for 42'
when the boat is only has 37' on deck and 37' of living space.

As you can see, I'm still having trouble finding a suitable boat. I
want something to liveaboard here in Alaska and in 3 years take off
and at least sail the S. Pacific if not farther.


Our daughter and son-in-law worked in Saipan for 5 years. During that
time they bought a very badly maintained 36' Union and worked hard to
make it livable and seaworthy.

In Seattle, I was telling a sail boating friend about the purchase and
the product and he put on a disappointed face, saying "I hate to see
kids buying a boat like that." I was alarmed but, in a flash, realized
he was a racing sailor for whom nothing was as important as that. And
he confirmed it as he went on: "The damn things are like Hans Christians
- they can't get out of their own way in less than a full gale."

He must have seen my anxiety, because he seemed to relent and finally
said: "Of course, no matter how bad it gets, she'll bring her crew home".

Our kids had previously had no significant blue water experience,
maintenance and surveying on Saipan was minimal, and I was terribly
worried about their planned crossing to Seattle in the summer of 2001.
We got reports from Pacific Seafarers' Net, but worried constantly. We
could tell they were having some trouble with equipment - the Saipan
fuel congealed in the cold weather of the north Pacific, the water maker
stopped working... All through those months I clung to those words like
a mantra: "She'll bring them home". And she did.

Our daughter told us later that they experienced about every type of
condition they could imagine, and not once had any concern for their
safety.

My vote is: "Heavy"

You said they had no experience, so "every type of condition they
could imagine" means nothing.

All responsible studies of bad weather problems have concluded that
for any given displacement, the longer the safer, as long as it is
structurally sound.

I wion't offer an opinion. I don't think anyone should make such a
choice based on internet opinions.


Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a


Ask not with whom the buck stops . . .

"Armond Perretta" wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:

But I can answer about the bow sprits ...

Now on a mooring, I don't think they do count. If you have a 37
foot boat with a 5 ft bow sprit and the length limit for the
moorings is 40 feet, I think the bow sprit would not count.

Our experience may differ, but I've never encountered rental moorings priced
by length. I have certainly encountered moorings that are designed for
particular lengths or displacements or drafts, etc., but they were all
rented at the same dollars/day, Martha's Vineyard and Northeast Harbor ME
are typical examples.

Where have you paid different prices for putting different length vessels on
a mooring?

That's not what I meant.

I didn't mean that you would be charged a different price. I meant
that you wouldn't be allowed to rent the mooring at all if you were
oversized.


grandma Rosalie

Matt/Meribeth Pedersen wrote:


In passagemaking, I don't see the moderate displacement boats
burning up the miles significantly faster than the heavy displacement ones.
I do think that you need to have adequate sail area to make a decent
passage, but when you're cruising, trying to keep the boat speed up over
about 1.2 sqrt WL is just too much trouble. As long as you are
powered up, then waterline length is going to govern.


Half a knot to a knot means a lot on a passage. That is 12 to 24 miles a
day which adds up pretty nicely on a 5 or 6 day run. Most of the time
you are not going to be driving at hull speed so a boat that can easily
be driven in light winds has a definite advantage. OTOH, the quicker
motion of the medium displacement boat can get a bit tiring.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Rosalie B. wrote:
"Armond Perretta" wrote:
Rosalie B. wrote:

But I can answer about the bow sprits ...
Now on a mooring, I don't think they do count ...
If you have a 37
foot boat with a 5 ft bow sprit and the length limit for the
moorings is 40 feet, I think the bow sprit would not count.

Our experience may differ, but I've never encountered rental
moorings priced by length. I have certainly encountered moorings
that are designed for particular lengths or displacements or
drafts, etc., but they were all rented at the same dollars/day,
Martha's Vineyard and Northeast Harbor ME are typical examples.

Where have you paid different prices for putting different length
vessels on a mooring?

That's not what I meant.

I didn't mean that you would be charged a different price. I meant
that you wouldn't be allowed to rent the mooring at all if you were
oversized.

I sometimes have trouble knowing what folks meant. I do however know what
they wrote.

Bart stated: "Most heavy displacement boats have bow sprits. If a boat has
a 5' bowsprit, do you add that into the total length of the boat when
computing moorage charges? It would be a shame to get charged for 42'
when the boat is only has 37' on deck and 37' of living space."

Rosalie replied: "But I can answer about the bow sprits. Yes you usually do
count them. You especially count them if it is a face dock. The amount of
dock space you take up includes bow sprits and dinghy davits, and then they
allow about 5 feet between boats. So many marinas do charge for the
total "dock length" (as apposed to deck length) of the boat ... Now on a
mooring, I don't think they do count. If you have a 37 foot boat with a 5
ft bow sprit and the length limit for the moorings is 40 feet, I think the
bow sprit would not count.

At which point I asked the question I asked. Sorry if I didn't know what
you "meant." Please note that I am _not_ referring to bowsprits
specifically, but rather to the idea of renting mooring and charging by
length.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

"Armond Perretta" wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:
"Armond Perretta" wrote:
Rosalie B. wrote:

But I can answer about the bow sprits ...
Now on a mooring, I don't think they do count ...
If you have a 37
foot boat with a 5 ft bow sprit and the length limit for the
moorings is 40 feet, I think the bow sprit would not count.

Our experience may differ, but I've never encountered rental
moorings priced by length. I have certainly encountered moorings
that are designed for particular lengths or displacements or
drafts, etc., but they were all rented at the same dollars/day,
Martha's Vineyard and Northeast Harbor ME are typical examples.

Where have you paid different prices for putting different length
vessels on a mooring?

That's not what I meant.

I didn't mean that you would be charged a different price. I meant
that you wouldn't be allowed to rent the mooring at all if you were
oversized.

I sometimes have trouble knowing what folks meant. I do however know what
they wrote.

Bart stated: "Most heavy displacement boats have bow sprits. If a boat has
a 5' bowsprit, do you add that into the total length of the boat when
computing moorage charges? It would be a shame to get charged for 42'
when the boat is only has 37' on deck and 37' of living space."

Rosalie replied: "But I can answer about the bow sprits. Yes you usually do
count them. You especially count them if it is a face dock. The amount of
dock space you take up includes bow sprits and dinghy davits, and then they
allow about 5 feet between boats. So many marinas do charge for the
total "dock length" (as apposed to deck length) of the boat ... Now on a
mooring, I don't think they do count. If you have a 37 foot boat with a 5
ft bow sprit and the length limit for the moorings is 40 feet, I think the
bow sprit would not count.

At which point I asked the question I asked. Sorry if I didn't know what
you "meant." Please note that I am _not_ referring to bowsprits
specifically, but rather to the idea of renting mooring and charging by
length.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I should perhaps have made a paragraph
between the bit about face docks and slips, and the section about
moorings. We have been prevented from using moorings because our
overall length was too great. (and we DON'T have a bow sprit) Altho
IMHO it would be more sensible to factor in boat tonnage and not just
length.

The problem I had was not knowing whether Bart meant dockage when he
said moorage, or if he was just talking about moorings, or if he was
including both. I was assuming that he was using the term to indicate
coming into a marina to a dock or slip. But just in case he meant
actual moorings rather than a dock, I stuck that last 2 sentences in
there. It was a separate thought. Sorry if it was confusing.



grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html

Bart wrote:
Are boats like the Tayana 37 still popular and still a good choice for
ocean crossings?

It depends on who you ask.


I've crawled in and out of a few boats during the past couple weeks
and it looks to me that the heavy displacment boats are just built a
lot better than the mid to light displacement ones. This is
especially true in the price range I can afford (less than $100k).

Bzzt, sorry to disagree, but I can offer positive proof that it ain't
so. Chipboard bulkheads and chopper gun fiberglass are very heavy and
can be very thick but will never be strong for marine structures... and
you see a lot of that kind of thing on the lower priced heavy
displacement cruisers.


When comparing open ocean vessels, Is the performace between a heavy
and mid displacment boat really all that much different?

Depends very much on the sailor & on the conditions.


maybe I wouldn't get bored with a lower performance heavy displacment
vessel.

Well, it sounds to me like you are very much in favor of the heavy
displacement boats and are trying hard to stretch a point. Go for it.

BTW don't think I am being insulting, I am a racing sailor and generally
see no use in heavy displacement boats except for people who would be
better off with a trawler. I happen to also own & cruise in a trawler.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Armond Perretta wrote:
Rosalie B. wrote:

"Armond Perretta" wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:

But I can answer about the bow sprits ...
Now on a mooring, I don't think they do count ...
If you have a 37
foot boat with a 5 ft bow sprit and the length limit for the
moorings is 40 feet, I think the bow sprit would not count.

Our experience may differ, but I've never encountered rental
moorings priced by length. I have certainly encountered moorings
that are designed for particular lengths or displacements or
drafts, etc., but they were all rented at the same dollars/day,
Martha's Vineyard and Northeast Harbor ME are typical examples.

Where have you paid different prices for putting different length
vessels on a mooring?

That's not what I meant.

I didn't mean that you would be charged a different price. I meant
that you wouldn't be allowed to rent the mooring at all if you were
oversized.


I sometimes have trouble knowing what folks meant. I do however know what
they wrote.

Bart stated: "Most heavy displacement boats have bow sprits. If a boat has
a 5' bowsprit, do you add that into the total length of the boat when
computing moorage charges? It would be a shame to get charged for 42'
when the boat is only has 37' on deck and 37' of living space."

Rosalie replied: "But I can answer about the bow sprits. Yes you usually do
count them. You especially count them if it is a face dock. The amount of
dock space you take up includes bow sprits and dinghy davits, and then they
allow about 5 feet between boats. So many marinas do charge for the
total "dock length" (as apposed to deck length) of the boat ... Now on a
mooring, I don't think they do count. If you have a 37 foot boat with a 5
ft bow sprit and the length limit for the moorings is 40 feet, I think the
bow sprit would not count.

At which point I asked the question I asked. Sorry if I didn't know what
you "meant." Please note that I am _not_ referring to bowsprits
specifically, but rather to the idea of renting mooring and charging by
length.

Funny how different people read things differently. I could tell when
she changed the topic from marina dock length and charging by foot to a
mooring where they don't charge by foot but may have "length limit".
Especially since in the original post they were in a separate paragraph.

Steve

I have to admit I really like the looks of the Tayana. I don't like
the teak decks and long bowsprit though. I believe the Union also has
both of these. There is one in San Diego that appears ready to go
anywhere for $89k. I just don't know how to get it up to Seattle and
am not positive if its the type of boat we want this time around. We
use to have a Fuji 36 that is very similar.

Your story is very interesting. There is a young couple here in
Juneau, Alaska that brought a Union 36 from Saipan back around 2001.
Did your daughter move to Alaska by chance?


On Sun, 09 May 2004 15:46:35 GMT, Gualtier Malde
wrote:

Bart wrote:
Are boats like the Tayana 37 still popular and still a good choice for
ocean crossings?

I've crawled in and out of a few boats during the past couple weeks
and it looks to me that the heavy displacment boats are just built a
lot better than the mid to light displacement ones. This is
especially true in the price range I can afford (less than $100k).

Most of the heavy displacement boats also have more storage because
the tanks are usually located in the bilge leaving the settees free
for storage. This appears to be another plus.

When comparing open ocean vessels, Is the performace between a heavy
and mid displacment boat really all that much different? If not, then
maybe I wouldn't get bored with a lower performance heavy displacment
vessel. I'm not sure about this and would like comments.

Most heavy displacement boats have bow sprits. If a boat has a 5'
bowsprit, do you add that into the total length of the boat when
computing moorage charges? It would be ashame to get charged for 42'
when the boat is only has 37' on deck and 37' of living space.

As you can see, I'm still having trouble finding a suitable boat. I
want something to liveaboard here in Alaska and in 3 years take off
and at least sail the S. Pacific if not farther.


Our daughter and son-in-law worked in Saipan for 5 years. During that
time they bought a very badly maintained 36' Union and worked hard to
make it livable and seaworthy.

In Seattle, I was telling a sail boating friend about the purchase and
the product and he put on a disappointed face, saying "I hate to see
kids buying a boat like that." I was alarmed but, in a flash, realized
he was a racing sailor for whom nothing was as important as that. And
he confirmed it as he went on: "The damn things are like Hans Christians
- they can't get out of their own way in less than a full gale."

He must have seen my anxiety, because he seemed to relent and finally
said: "Of course, no matter how bad it gets, she'll bring her crew home".

Our kids had previously had no significant blue water experience,
maintenance and surveying on Saipan was minimal, and I was terribly
worried about their planned crossing to Seattle in the summer of 2001.
We got reports from Pacific Seafarers' Net, but worried constantly. We
could tell they were having some trouble with equipment - the Saipan
fuel congealed in the cold weather of the north Pacific, the water maker
stopped working... All through those months I clung to those words like
a mantra: "She'll bring them home". And she did.

Our daughter told us later that they experienced about every type of
condition they could imagine, and not once had any concern for their
safety.

My vote is: "Heavy"

g


--
This outgoing message has been scanned by AVG Anti-Virus 7.0.
http://www.grisoft.com/us/us_index.php

On Mon, 10 May 2004 10:15:17 -0400, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

OTOH, the quicker
motion of the medium displacement boat can get a bit tiring.

===========================================

More than a bit in my experience. A quick motion is a bad thing, and
a quick squirrelly motion is absolutely the pits. There is really no
substitute for length and displacement for a half way comfortable
ride.

Norm,
I am very prejudiced towards the Tayana 37, so take anything I say with
a grain of salt.

You should know though that not all of them have teak decks. One of the
main selling points when we bought Tricia Jean was that it had teak back
in the cockpit area, but the side decks and foredeck are pure
unadulterated plastic. I like the look and feel of the teak back in the
cockpit, but it just never made sense to me to take a nice waterproof
plastic boat and drill thousands of holes in it then expect the water to
stay exclusively on the outside.

As far as performance goes, we were pleasantly surprised with it (and
absolutely love the asym. spinnaker we recently bought). Of course,
you've got to understand that our previous boat was a Catalina 30 - a
nice boat and we sure had good times with it, but when we took it to
Baja in the '99 HaHa, we were one of the last boats to arrive at every stop.

Fair winds - Dan Best
p.s. Did I mention storage? That's what REALLY sold us on the boat.
We've had it 2 1/2 years and I still have 3 drawers that have nothing in
them.

Norm wrote:
I have to admit I really like the looks of the Tayana. I don't like
the teak decks and long bowsprit though. I believe the Union also has
both of these. There is one in San Diego that appears ready to go
anywhere for $89k. I just don't know how to get it up to Seattle and
am not positive if its the type of boat we want this time around. We
use to have a Fuji 36 that is very similar.

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG