Herodotus wrote in
:

That's what I admire about you Larry - a true lateral thinker.

Seriously.

I'd be interested to see what results you get.

cheers
Peter



I like the idea of using those gel cold packs instead of the heat sinks.
They probably will absorb much more Btu than just Aluminum.

I have all kinds of crazy ideas I like to think is based on some basic
knowledge of science, in this case thermodynamics. For many years, my
electric bill with electric heat and for the last 4 years simple $100
but very efficient Korean window air conditioners has been less than
half of my neighbors'. I wasn't too interested until the main heat pump
failed and I thought I'd have to pay through the nose using simple
electric heaters as it was in the winter, January, our coldest month.
Oddly, the house didn't simply freeze up and I found that only 1800
watts of two "milkhouse" nichrome-wire warm air heaters kept the place
as warm as toast for me and my parrots. They even cycled on and off
quite regularly. I began to wonder why as some neighbors were over
$400/month with electric strip heat in central heating systems in these
cheap trailers.

What I discovered was it was my crazy lifestyle as a pack rat that was
the cause of the low bills! I'm quite a packrat. I collect 'things' I
find fascinating or remotely useful, especially from thrift shops on the
truly cheap. My 14x70 yacht is loaded to the gills with my collections,
some useful, some forgotten. I'm a loner, most of the time, so who
cares? I love my stuff. Some times I go through and find things I
haven't seen in years. Every day is like Christmas morning...(c;

It was this crazy obsession of mine that was causing the low bills! All
the stuff piled up all over the house creates two phenomenon I could
measure....THERMAL LAG merely from the Btu stored in the "stuff" during
the day with the sun coming in the windows....and the "stuff" radiating
it into the cooling house all night...into a much smaller airspace than
the usual empty house beautiful's 8 acres of perfectly clean white
carpet you aren't allowed to walk on in shoes has. The other phenomenon
is INSULATION. If "stuff" is sitting on the floor, because there is no
place else to put it left...(c...it creates a tremendous R-value of
insulation as the heat can't simply escape through a tiny bit of clean
white carpet noone is allowed to walk on in shoes plus a little
fiberglass insulation under the floor. Hell, in some places, my floors
have 3 feet of insulating "material" over the carpet...in addition to
being a heat storage medium.

Throwing away that "stuff" is a mistake! It lowers your power bill!

I suppose (on topic) the same is true on boats. An empty boat being
delivered to its new owner with nothing in it heats and cools off much
faster than a properly fitted out cruiser with 3000 pounds of tools,
oil, spare parts, insulating books, and all that stuff you've forgotten
about stuffed into the storage space under the settee....keeping the
boat cooler in the day and warmer at night.

Well, the neatniks don't last long around here. My friends love to come
by and just go exploring. "What's this?", they'll say, holding up
something I probably haven't seen in 2 years. "I dunno. You want it?
It's yours.", I reply turning back to my keyboard or Heineken's keg
filling my glass. I love to give stuff away because I'm a packrat and
can't stand to just throw stuff out! What a waste. Someone got curious
about an Ionic Breeze high voltage ion generator they sold for big money
here in the States. I paid $5 in a thrift shop. It's gone....I helped
him load it because he was carrying other stuff I'd dumped on him
earlier...(c; My friends' boats are full of cable I'd just dragged off
spools in the shed out in the yard. Radio Shack was selling stuff in a
store to get rid of it, and I bought the whole lot of cables for $100
cash. We could hardly carry it out to the van! At the rate I'm giving
it to friends, I'll run out in June of 2284...(c;

That R-12 fridge I bought this morning brings my count of small fridges
up to 6 I know about, at the moment. Somebody's beer is gonna love the
new cooler pretty soon. I gave 4 away last summer...(c;

$1000 fridges my ass....

On Jul 18, 9:28 pm, Larry wrote:
" wrote in news:7f8aa6de-0499-4d2c-
....
Tom, how are you measuring these percentages? Are you using a hydrometer?

Zen. Well, I have an Ample Power computer but it only gives a general
feel. I've got AGM's so a hydrometer is out. Anyway, I didn't mean
for the percentages to be taken very exactly. When the batteries are
low I can throw a couple hundred amps at them for 15 minutes or so and
the absorption drops off pretty slowly. I figure until the rate is
down to 60 or so I'm saving charge time over what I'd be doing with a
normal alternator. One of the joys few joys of lead acid is that you
don't need to top them off each time you charge them. Every week or
so is fine. My feeling is it takes much less time to get charge the
bank to a 15 amp acceptance with the 110's over what it would with a
sixty...

-- Tom.

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:18:33 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jul 18, 4:46*pm, Bruce in Bangkok
...
In practice high output alternators make a big difference getting up
to about 80% charge. *That can be very, very useful. *It may be that
you have some logic and battery chemistry in your text books but I
live on my boat and go voyaging a bit. *High output alternators are a
good thing.

So do Larry, Peter and myself. (Well, larry doesn't live on one, he
just voyages).

Frankly, in my experience a 110 amp alternator and a 440 A.H. battery
bank is overkill,
...

Well, I've got two 110 amp alternators on a 510 AH bank and I think
that's about right. My experience is that I can bulk my batteries
quickly with my 110's. Sometimes I top them off with solar and
sometimes I work them in the 80%-50% range. Every week or so they get
a full charge and that does take a long time, but still less time than
it would with a 60 amp unit. YMMV.

-- Tom.


During your bulk charging stage what voltage are your batteries
reading and how many amps are you charging at?


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 09:46:57 +1000, Herodotus
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:32:48 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:


Thanks Bruce,
This is the sort of information I am looking for.

It's a pity about the wind in that area. I always have to smile when I
see people hiring the Sunsail yachts out of Langkawi and then motoring
everywhere. Still, not a bad place to motor around the Islands and
then up to Siam.

In Curacao the trades blow non-stop. Even disconnected from the mains
and relying on the one 80 watt solar panel (16 years old) and the new
Airex wind generator, it keeps the batteries charged no matter my
usuage and the charging light goes off indicating a full charge quite
often during the day.

Need some of those trades back home.

cheers
Peter

(A bunch cut)

Following is information from the Catamaran Guy I mentioned.

Boat - 35 ft. Cat.
Engines - 2 X 3 cyl. Yanmar, standard Alternators (probably about 50
amp)
Solar Panels - 2 X 68 Watt (new Japanese) measured output 10.2 amps at
noon
Wind Generator - none
Fridge - Built in Eutetic, Fridge only
Insulation - Approx 7-8 cm. insulation, believe standard closed cell
foam
Compressor - Isotherm Classic Compact 12VDC/220VAC (uses inverter)
Condenser - Water cooled, 12VDC pump
Inverter - CLD Inverter, powers fridge and also acts as controller for
fridge system - owner says not used for boat power
Batteries - 3 X 120 AH = 360 AH
Water System - 12VDC pressure
Lights - All LED ------------------------------

Service:
4 day sailing trip: Ran engines as required, probably average of 3
hours per day, no problems with maintaining batteries at 90% or
higher.

At anchor: One week at anchor, did not run engines, ran fridge, radio,
lights, computer, etc., batteries never under 90% charge.

Comments:
Stephen, the fridge guy, feels that system is unduly complex with
water cooled condenser and inverter. Feels that straight 12VDC, air
cooled condenser, would be less trouble. Owner admits that had initial
problems with system, mainly electrical (inverter/controller).

Owner says on 4 day trip kept thermostat at 15 degrees C. Tries to
keep fridge full and ice on cold plate. Frequently charters bare boat
and says all charters have reported no problems with fridge.

Suggestions: Think that Stephen is right. Seems senseless to run 12VDC
through inverter to power 220 VAC compressor. Always some losses in
this type of system. Believe that air cooled condenser makes more
sense as personal experience shows that 12 VDC air cooled system works
in tropical climate and eliminates all the problems associated with
the water cooling system - pumps, clogging, etc.

If you need any more data let me know and I'll go down to Stephen's
shop and talk with him.

Do note the ALL LED lighting.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 04:54:43 +0000, Larry wrote:

Herodotus wrote in
:

That's what I admire about you Larry - a true lateral thinker.

Seriously.

I'd be interested to see what results you get.

cheers
Peter



I like the idea of using those gel cold packs instead of the heat sinks.
They probably will absorb much more Btu than just Aluminum.

I have all kinds of crazy ideas I like to think is based on some basic
knowledge of science, in this case thermodynamics. For many years, my
electric bill with electric heat and for the last 4 years simple $100
but very efficient Korean window air conditioners has been less than
half of my neighbors'. I wasn't too interested until the main heat pump
failed and I thought I'd have to pay through the nose using simple
electric heaters as it was in the winter, January, our coldest month.
Oddly, the house didn't simply freeze up and I found that only 1800
watts of two "milkhouse" nichrome-wire warm air heaters kept the place
as warm as toast for me and my parrots. They even cycled on and off
quite regularly. I began to wonder why as some neighbors were over
$400/month with electric strip heat in central heating systems in these
cheap trailers.

What I discovered was it was my crazy lifestyle as a pack rat that was
the cause of the low bills! I'm quite a packrat. I collect 'things' I
find fascinating or remotely useful, especially from thrift shops on the
truly cheap. My 14x70 yacht is loaded to the gills with my collections,
some useful, some forgotten. I'm a loner, most of the time, so who
cares? I love my stuff. Some times I go through and find things I
haven't seen in years. Every day is like Christmas morning...(c;

It was this crazy obsession of mine that was causing the low bills! All
the stuff piled up all over the house creates two phenomenon I could
measure....THERMAL LAG merely from the Btu stored in the "stuff" during
the day with the sun coming in the windows....and the "stuff" radiating
it into the cooling house all night...into a much smaller airspace than
the usual empty house beautiful's 8 acres of perfectly clean white
carpet you aren't allowed to walk on in shoes has. The other phenomenon
is INSULATION. If "stuff" is sitting on the floor, because there is no
place else to put it left...(c...it creates a tremendous R-value of
insulation as the heat can't simply escape through a tiny bit of clean
white carpet noone is allowed to walk on in shoes plus a little
fiberglass insulation under the floor. Hell, in some places, my floors
have 3 feet of insulating "material" over the carpet...in addition to
being a heat storage medium.

Throwing away that "stuff" is a mistake! It lowers your power bill!

I suppose (on topic) the same is true on boats. An empty boat being
delivered to its new owner with nothing in it heats and cools off much
faster than a properly fitted out cruiser with 3000 pounds of tools,
oil, spare parts, insulating books, and all that stuff you've forgotten
about stuffed into the storage space under the settee....keeping the
boat cooler in the day and warmer at night.

Well, the neatniks don't last long around here. My friends love to come
by and just go exploring. "What's this?", they'll say, holding up
something I probably haven't seen in 2 years. "I dunno. You want it?
It's yours.", I reply turning back to my keyboard or Heineken's keg
filling my glass. I love to give stuff away because I'm a packrat and
can't stand to just throw stuff out! What a waste. Someone got curious
about an Ionic Breeze high voltage ion generator they sold for big money
here in the States. I paid $5 in a thrift shop. It's gone....I helped
him load it because he was carrying other stuff I'd dumped on him
earlier...(c; My friends' boats are full of cable I'd just dragged off
spools in the shed out in the yard. Radio Shack was selling stuff in a
store to get rid of it, and I bought the whole lot of cables for $100
cash. We could hardly carry it out to the van! At the rate I'm giving
it to friends, I'll run out in June of 2284...(c;

That R-12 fridge I bought this morning brings my count of small fridges
up to 6 I know about, at the moment. Somebody's beer is gonna love the
new cooler pretty soon. I gave 4 away last summer...(c;

$1000 fridges my ass....


If you don;t stop going on about R-12 the tree hugging gestapo is
going to come calling and burn a cross on your lawn, or something. My
God man, you are probably responsible for half the ozone hole all by
yourself :-(


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 06:46:33 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:36:32 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jul 18, 8:42*am, Larry wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote :

Well, first of all you need a "Larry Lesson" on how batteries charge
as your 110 amp alternator is just a waste of money.

No, no! *Everyone knows a boat battery can be charged in 3 minutes if you
buy a big enough alternator!

Don't let logic, battery chemistry and me upset it.

In practice high output alternators make a big difference getting up
to about 80% charge. That can be very, very useful. It may be that
you have some logic and battery chemistry in your text books but I
live on my boat and go voyaging a bit. High output alternators are a
good thing.

So do Larry, Peter and myself. (Well, larry doesn't live on one, he
just voyages).

Frankly, in my experience a 110 amp alternator and a 440 A.H. battery
bank is overkill,

\The reason why I have a Bosch 120 AMP alternator is that the Nanni 37
HP diesel came with a standard 55 AMP one. I got the larger alternator
because I read that they never output their full power and it was a
great price new. With the smart charge/fast charge system it only ever
outputs a steady 80 amps before tapering down. Also, it seldom gets
hot.

The first one needed replacing in Europe so went to Bosch agents in
Italy and Spain. They hunted the part numbers from the casing and even
phoned Germany before receiving advice that Australian Bosch part
numbers were different. Found a new Bosch 120 amp one with the same
mounting in Spain in a catalogue - price 900 Euros - $1,500.

Arrived back in Australia, went to the dealer and purchased a Bosch
120 amp one for $240 - new.
Looked at the casing. It had a label "Made in Spain". That's
capitalism for you.

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 18:27:00 +1000, Herodotus
wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 06:46:33 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:36:32 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jul 18, 8:42*am, Larry wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote :

Well, first of all you need a "Larry Lesson" on how batteries charge
as your 110 amp alternator is just a waste of money.

No, no! *Everyone knows a boat battery can be charged in 3 minutes if you
buy a big enough alternator!

Don't let logic, battery chemistry and me upset it.

In practice high output alternators make a big difference getting up
to about 80% charge. That can be very, very useful. It may be that
you have some logic and battery chemistry in your text books but I
live on my boat and go voyaging a bit. High output alternators are a
good thing.

So do Larry, Peter and myself. (Well, larry doesn't live on one, he
just voyages).

Frankly, in my experience a 110 amp alternator and a 440 A.H. battery
bank is overkill,

\The reason why I have a Bosch 120 AMP alternator is that the Nanni 37
HP diesel came with a standard 55 AMP one. I got the larger alternator
because I read that they never output their full power and it was a
great price new. With the smart charge/fast charge system it only ever
outputs a steady 80 amps before tapering down. Also, it seldom gets
hot.

The first one needed replacing in Europe so went to Bosch agents in
Italy and Spain. They hunted the part numbers from the casing and even
phoned Germany before receiving advice that Australian Bosch part
numbers were different. Found a new Bosch 120 amp one with the same
mounting in Spain in a catalogue - price 900 Euros - $1,500.

Arrived back in Australia, went to the dealer and purchased a Bosch
120 amp one for $240 - new.
Looked at the casing. It had a label "Made in Spain". That's
capitalism for you.

Actually a XX amp alternator WILL produce XX power. The question is
for how long, usually not very.

Actually I should not needle you about a big alternator as I have one
too (but I know I don't need it :-) I've also got a "auto - manual"
selector which is a two way switch and a rheostat. Switches the
alternator from regulator to manual control. Good for when the
regulator fails :-(

The auto/manual switch sounds like just the thing. Run the engine at
low revs and crank up the field current and put out prodigious
amperage at low revs but it doesn't work that way. If the battery is
down even a little there is no difference between regulator and manual
selections. Apparently a "smart" regulator runs wide open until you
get to about 14 volts and then slows things down.

By the way. The last alternator I bought cost me US$50, used. Took it
to the rewind shop and had them check everything and test it - $7.00.
Like new alternator $57.00. Cheap is good, as Larry says.

But it failed the other day when I set off for the ship yard. Had only
been down there under the floor for five years too -- they just don't
build 'um like they used to :-(

Talk about capitalism. When I was in Viet Nam fighting the communists
and making the world safe for capitalism I ordered some parts. When
they arrived each and every one had etched on the case "Made in
Yugoslavia".


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

$1000 fridges my ass....


If you don;t stop going on about R-12 the tree hugging gestapo is
going to come calling and burn a cross on your lawn, or something. My
God man, you are probably responsible for half the ozone hole all by
yourself :-(


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

Watching a greenie show on TV last night and it showed an illustration
of the hole in the ozone layer. Their statement was that it was caused
by man but luckily it healed itself! HUH?
G

On Jul 19, 12:23*am, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:
...
During your bulk charging stage what voltage are your batteries
reading and how many amps are you charging at? ...

I generally cycle the batteries on passage where I try to get away
with one hour of charging a day. We support two 12 volt, air cooled
compressors (fridge and freezer) and the auto pilot and nav lights,
RADAR, radios &c. Our solar array is usually partially shaded while
under way so we have less input there.

Keeping in mind that no two days are alike and I'm not working off of
data logs or anything: In the morning we generally see ~12 volts or a
little less on the batteries (they are always under load) and the
acceptance rate plus load is more than 200 amps. The voltage rises
slowly to 14.2~14.4 (depending on what the temp is). After about and
hour I typically shut down the engine and the acceptance plus load at
14ish is in the low teens. For the first third or so of that the
charge rate is greater than 50 amps. My take is that I'd kill
standard sized alternators pretty fast asking them to go full out for
half an hour (integessing the extra time to 50 amps) plus another 45
min of topping off and it would take more time to get to the same
charge rate. Down the list a ways you mention a cat that charges its
batteries 3 hours a day. I would find that intolerable. It seems to
me that the trick to reducing charging time is to have a good sized
alternator and know when to stop charging. It's unusual to be
offshore for more than a week without a day of calms and on those days
you can top the battery off while getting a propulsion boost form the
motor. YMMV.

-- Tom.

"Gordon" wrote in message
m...
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

$1000 fridges my ass....


If you don;t stop going on about R-12 the tree hugging gestapo is
going to come calling and burn a cross on your lawn, or something. My
God man, you are probably responsible for half the ozone hole all by
yourself :-(


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

Watching a greenie show on TV last night and it showed an illustration of
the hole in the ozone layer. Their statement was that it was caused by man
but luckily it healed itself! HUH?
G


Not quite... didn't heal itself until after we stopped dumping the
refrigerant into the atmosphere.

http://www.livescience.com/environme...zone_hole.html
http://www.techmonitor.net/techmon/0...zo_science.htm


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com