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#131
posted to rec.boats.cruising,alt.sailing.asa
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I decided
Capt. JG wrote: "JimC" wrote in message ... Well, come on... what are the advantages of heavier boats? You claim they're more comfortable. Is this just at the dock or perhaps it includes offshore. Yes, it's a rhetorial question. I've discussed those advantages many times in prior discussions, Ganz, but you apparently prefer to forget such comments and stick with your caricatures (what you like to consider as inexperienced, naive Mac owners). - In answer to your "rhetorial" question, larger, conventional keeled sailboats are heavier and usually more comfortable in heavy weather; they can be faster under sail, due to their longer water lines; and they have greater storage capacity suitable for provisioning for extended crossings. With a deep keel, they can normally point higher. And there's usually more room on their deck for sexy girls to see and be seen. Also, don't forget that if the skipper has inferiority problems, they can be a good ego booster. Jim Yep. I like the answer. Now, take a look at your Mac. What do you see? (answer: none of the above) LOL What do I see? Among other things, I see the following: 1) A boat that is not essentially limited to being sailed in the immediate area. - The Mac26M can be quickly and easily transported by the owner (with a pickup or SUV) in one weekend to waters hundreds of miles from it's berth or storage area, thereby making available hundreds of sailing areas that wouldn't be conveniently available with a larger, keeled vessel. (Without having it hauled out of the water and hiring a truck to transport the boat to a distant sailing area.) - Practically speaking, most large, conventional keeled boats are limited to sailing within a day or so of their marinas unless the owners are retired or want to spend several weeks of vacation. (Of course, you can always point to exceptions, but they ARE the exceptions, not the usual practice for most owners, most of the time.) 2) A boat that doesn't have to be berthed in a marina. Thus, the storage fees are substantially less than most marina fees, and ongoing lease and maintenance fees can be substantially reduced. Or, if desired, I can (and do) choose to keep it in a Marina, at a relatively modest fee because of its size and limited draft. 3) A coastal cruiser that can be sailed in a variety of waters, including offshore, with the understanding that it isn't recommended for extended ocean crossings and isn't as comfortable in heavy weather. The boat has plenty of ballast and plenty of righting forces. Also, it's suitable for sailing and/or motoring in shallow or restricted waters that aren't available to large, fixed keel vessels. 4} A boat that incorporates a number of safety features, including positive floatation that will keep the boat afloat even if the hull is compromised. The boat is also designed to accommodate a large outboard which gives the skipper more options in the event of heavy weather, e.g., for returning to port quickly. 5) A boat that, despite its relatively modest size, has substantial cabin space and berths for five people, including a queen-size aft berth. 6) A boat that is small and light enough to permit easy handling and docking by one person. 7) A boat that is priced substantially lower than conventional larger boats (comparing new prices with new prices and used prices with used prices, of course). This permits getting a fully equipped vessel (with accessories such as autopilot, chart reader, roller reefing, 50-hp motor, lines led aft, radio, stereo, etc., etc.), still within an affordable total cost. 8) A boat that can be sailed or motored with or without the ballast, and that can be trailord without the ballast, making it a substantially lighter load when trailoring. 9) A boat that can have a 5.5 feet draft for sailing (with dagger-board down) but that can be converted to one with only 1.5-ft draft in shallow waters or waters with variable depth, or for anchoring in shallow waters, or for bringing it up a ramp for trailoring, or for simply bringing the boat ashore on a beach for a picnic or the like. Or, the dagger board can be only partially retracted for increased speed on a reach or a run, or completely retracted for motoring on a plane. 10) A sailboat that, unlike 90 percent of the boats discussed on this ng, isn't limited to hull speed. With the (typical) 50-hp to 60-hp outboard, the Mac 26M can be motored on a plane at two or three times hull speed. While some on this ng have ridiculed this feature, it offers a number of rather important advantages. - For example, the skipper can get the boat out to a preferred sailing area substantially sooner, PERMITTING MORE SAILING TIME in the desired area. Similarly, at the end of the day, he can get the boat back more quickly, regardless of wind direction, again PERMITTING MORE SAILING TIME (since he can stay out later and still get the family home in time for dinner or other activities). Practically speaking, it's also an advantage of the wife or kids or guests are getting tired of sailing and want to get back ASAP. This capability is also a safety factor, as mentioned above, in the event the skipper wants to bring the boat in quickly to avoid heavy weather, or move down the coast to avoid a squall, etc. 11) A boat that has clean lines and a modern, streamlined design. - Admittedly, this is a matter of taste. - (I also like the looks of some of the large conventional boats, particularly if they are long enough.) But if we are comparing apples to apples, consider the looks of other boats of 26-foot length. - For example, the smaller Island Packets look something like a tug boat to me. All I know is that it looks good to me and my guests. - Every time I see him, the owner of the boat in the next slip compliments me on what a good-looking boat it is. Again, I ALREADY STATED THAT THIS IS A MATTER OF PERSONAL TASTE, DIDN'T I? So there's really no need to tell me that you don't like the Mac, and prefer something else. - More power to you. 12) Finally, I see a boat that is FUN TO SAIL! On my Mac 26M, when I get to the sailing area, raise the sails, turn off the motor, and sense the boat moving under sail, it's an amazing, almost magical experience. In contrast to some of the heavier, conventional boats that I have sailed, the Mac is sufficiently light that it gives you a 'kick in the pants' as it accelerates under sail. Although larger boats are steadier, and more comfortable in choppy waters (sort of like a large, heavy Lincoln Town Car or equivalent) the Macs are responsive enough to give you more of a feel of the changing conditions (sort of like the feel of a sports car, such as a Porsche (a car that is fun to drive but not quite as smooth or comfortable on long trips as the Lincoln). Also, in moderate conditions, I sometimes like to set the boat on autopilot and sit on the deck watching the boat gliding silently through the water. - Again, it's an ethereal, almost magical experience. - - - Does that answer your question Ganz? - Or do you want a few more? Jim |
#132
posted to rec.boats.cruising,alt.sailing.asa
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#133
posted to rec.boats.cruising,alt.sailing.asa
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I decided
jeff wrote: JimC wrote: jeff wrote: JimC wrote: Out of curiosity, I asked the MacGregor discussion group whether anyone had heard of a Mac 26 breaking up and/or sinking in heavy seas. (Many of the Mac owners have taken their boats offshore.) No one had heard of any such incidence. As you say, there are thousands out there, all over the world and in all types of conditions. Really? I'd love to see an account of a Mac 26X/M doing a real offshore passage. I don't doubt that there have been a few, but most of the comments I see are more like "I take my Mac out on the open ocean and it does quite well, especially since I can power in before it get too rough. But I wouldn't want to do a real ocean crossing." The fact that Macs are taken out in the open ocean, such as a crossing to Catalina (or Boston to P'town, or even crossing to the Bahamas) does not mean they have been "offshore." I'm a fair weather cruiser with little ambition to do long passages, but every year or two I get "caught out" in 30-40 knots, or maybe 8-10 foot seas. My boat handles this with no problem, and these conditions should be survivable by a Mac, assuming a competent skipper. But when you say "offshore" you're implying the possibility of much worse conditions, 50+ knots, large breaking seas, and storms lasting several days. I'm just a bit skeptical that Macs have endured such conditions on many occasions. I think the discussion has related largely to conditions such as those Joe experienced in the Gulf of Mexico. That was not quite an ocean passage, but it was about 900 miles altogether, including the last 550 miles of open water. This was not a little peek outside the harbor's mouth. While not the North Atlantic in Winter, or hurricane season, it was a lot more than any Mac trip I've heard of. And the discussion certainly seems to be about survival weather, since you're talking about the relative merits of laying ahull and laying off a sea anchor. - Regarding accounts of ocean voyages, I have read of a number of them on various Mac discussion groups, although not many are true extended ocean crossings. Were any of them more than a day trip? Yes. Out of sight of land? Yes. Any Bermuda crossings? I believe so. Come on, Jim, you're the one who always insists on some proof, now its your turn to ante up. Actually, Jeff, what I said originally was that I didn't consider the Mac 26 to be suitable for extended ocean crossings and wouldn't want to take mine out 200 miles. Since I already said that I don't consider the Mac to be suitable for extended crossings, I really don't see the need to defend it as a boat suitable for extended ocean crossings. I also said that, in the event that Joe was on a Mac 26 rather than Red Cloud, I thought that the boat would not break apart and sink, as did Red Cloud, apparently, because the Macs are built with positive floatation that will keep them afloat even if the hull is compromised, etc. - Once more, I have already said that it isn't suitable for extended ocean crossings. - What is it about that statement do you not understand? I've spent time perusing the Mac boards and I've yet to find a mention of really strong conditions. "Heavy Weather" in Mac terms seems to be 20-25 kts with a three foot chop, and most owners say they hope to never see worse. And while I've seen no stories of total breakups, there are a number of cases of dismastings and lots of rudder problems. And then there's the break away dagger board issue (yes, they only cost $250) that you claim is actually the shallow water alarm. And need I remind you that people have drowned in a capsized Mac? On the other hand, with thousands of Macs out there, in US and foreign waters, the probabilities of exposure to various problems under sail is significant. In other words, with that many boats exposed to the vagaries of weather, other severe conditions, collisions, inexperienced or distracted skippers, etc., etc., problems can arise no matter where the boats are being sailed. Nope, claiming it must have happened because there are a lot of Macs out there doesn't cut it. As I (and a number of others) have pointed out, even though I've cruised the entire East Coast, and spend a few months each summer cruising New England, I've never seen a Mac outside of protected waters. My point is that, so far, we don't see any reports of any tendencies of the boats to break up or sink. True, but meaningless unless you can show that they have actually survived true heavy weather. It's not meaningless in view of the fact that there are multiple thousands of them, being sailed by thousands of owners in various waters around the world. I have seen reports of owners sailing them off Australia, in the Mediterranean, off the coast of England, off the shore of California (often to Catalina Is.), etc. But remember that they may be subject to severe conditions no matter where they are sailed. My point is that with this many boats out there, over many years, it is obviously likely that some will have been subject to severe and unexpected conditions of various kinds. - Remember that it was Ganz and others who made the assertions that they would break up in heavy conditions. (By contrast, I always said that they weren't suitable for extended Blue Water crossings.) Therefore, in view of the fact that it was Ganz and his buddies that made the assertions that they would break up in heavy weather, seems like it would be his responsibility to support that particular assertions. Here's what he actually posted: "Assuming the boat can't sink (which I seriously doubt - given the pounding it would endure, it would likely break up), it would be dismasted for sure. Then, (not that sailing would have ever been an option), your only chance for survival would be below decks, while the boat rolled over and over and over, perhaps even pitchpolling from time to time. It would be like being in a washing machine with heavy and sharp objects. You'd find yourself in a non-habitable environment of flying hazards including yourself that would break your bones into mush. In desperation to escape, you would vacate the premises, and then either be thrown off the boat by the wave action or you would remove yourself from the boat deliberately. Either way, you wouldn't survive." Again, if he is going to disparage my boat, equating it to a washing machine and asserting that no one on it would survive, then he should be the one to provide the evidence supporting his assertions. Laser's don't break up or sink, but that doesn't mean they are a suitable "offshore" boat. Once more, I never said it was a "suitable offshore boat." (How many times do I have to repeat this?) I merely stated that I didn't think it would have sunk, as did Joe's boat. And BTW, when you got your boat you said you intended to take it offshore. Perhaps I missed your accounts of these ventures, can you repost them? I have a number of responsibilities and haven't had time to take the boat down to the Gulf. However, I intend to this Summer. - Ask me again this Fall. Jim |
#134
posted to rec.boats.cruising,alt.sailing.asa
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I decided
Martin Baxter wrote: JimC wrote: Marty wrote: JimC wrote: adequate. What I would do in the case of approaching severe weather conditions would be to form a towing bridle connected around the two bow chucks, Wow! Since you have all this experience on "big" sailboats, perhaps you could explain what a "bow chuck" is? - Cheers Marty -- Bow cleats -- Wow, Marty. You sure are smart, and you must be an old salt for sure. You sure did get me on that one, didn't you? Bet you're proud of yourself. (Incidentally, Marty, try responding simultaneously to 15 obviously frustrated Mac-bashers for a few days and see if you don't make a few mistakes.) Ah, now the ad hominems roll out. I thought you meant chock, changing 'cleat" to "chuck" seemed a bit of a stretch. I, ala Roger Long am bailing out of this ludicrous thread. Cheers Marty Sorry to see you go Roger. Is there any chance you might reconsider your decision? Jim |
#135
posted to rec.boats.cruising,alt.sailing.asa
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#136
posted to rec.boats.cruising,alt.sailing.asa
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#137
posted to rec.boats.cruising,alt.sailing.asa
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I decided
Capt. JG wrote: "JimC" wrote in message ... As stated above, the Mac 26 is one of, if not the most popular series of sailboats ever made, with thousands still in use both in the US and in various foreign countries. The Big Mac is the most popular burger ever. Doesn't mean I'd try and order one in an expensive restaurant. On the other hand, if people were routinely dying the day after eating a Big Mac, we WOULD have heard about it, woudln't we? Same principle with a boat that is being sailed by thousands of owners around the world. Jim |
#138
posted to rec.boats.cruising,alt.sailing.asa
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#139
posted to rec.boats.cruising,alt.sailing.asa
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I decided
Edgar wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:09:26 -0400, jeff wrote: JimC would like to write this off as just a drunk operator incident, but frankly, it happened so quickly and was so unexpected, that it might have happened even if he was sober. My issue is that 8 adults is not normally gross overloading on a 26 foot boat, and goosing the throttle on a typical sailboat does not instantly create a dangerous situation. Given that Macs are often sold to novices, the description of this event should be required reading by all Mac owners. http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html ========================================= Tragic, too many people plus a design weakness. Bayliner had a similar issue back in the 80s with some of their small flybridge cruisers. With too much weight on the flybridge they would flop over and capsize in a hard turn. Problem was solved with a warning sticker. Problem solved with a warning sticker!!! That is just the builder covering his backside as best he can. The builders of the capsized Mac said they put a sticker on when it was built but the evidence indicated that it was not there at the time of the accident. Eight adults on the deck of what was in effect a large unballasted dinghy is a recipe for disaster because it constitutes overloading anyway and the weight of all on deck was so high up that if the boat heels even in a gentle turn it is going right over if there is no ballast in the keel to restrain it.. There is no mystery at all about the cause of the tragedy but it does indicate that this is not a boat that anyone without training about the water ballast and the max no of passengers can just drive away safely The skipper was drunk, the boat was severely overloaded and top heavy, the skipper had borrowed the boat from the owner and was apparently unfamiliar with it, and the owner was apparently not there to check things out. Most critically, the drunk skipper was motoring the boat with the ballast tank empty. Therefore, once the boat started to roll (apparently when he turned, under power, with the heavy load on deck), the boat had little righting force and rolled over. ANYONE WHO HAS SAILED OR MOTORED a water-ballasted boat should know that such boats aren't self-righting without the water ballast and are dangerous, particularly if you are going out with the boat overloaded and while you and several of the guests are drunk. Also, the two casualties were small infants who had been left in the cabin while the "adults" were drinking up on deck. I also think the owner had a responsibility to check the boat (and the skipper) before the boat went out. In any event, the case was vigorously prosecuted, but the plaintiffs lost. They tried to make the case that the boat was inherently unsafe, but the judge didn't buy it. As to how this relates to our present discussion, I really doubt than any even half-way rational skipper would consider taking a Mac offshore under such conditions (with the boat overloaded, with several adults standing on the deck, with the skipper and half the guests drunk, and with the ballast tank empty). It's an anomaly that doesn't really relate to the present discussion. Jim |
#140
posted to rec.boats.cruising,alt.sailing.asa
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I decided
Capt. JG wrote: "Marty" wrote in message ... JimC wrote: Capt. JG wrote: "JimC" wrote in message .. . snipping Zzzzzz... this thread is dead Jim... LOL The string is dead? Well, some of us have interests and responsibilities beyond participating in such a discussion. Also, I spent the afternoon this Saturday sailing my boat, something I don't seem often to see with respect to you and your buddies posting in this string. - It's strange, but you and most of your anti-Mac buddies seem to get their jollies from bashing us Mac sailors, whereas we Mac sailors get pleasure from sailing our Macs. But I'll get back to you, and also to your Mac-bashing buddies. That's a promise. Getting a bit paranoid there Jim. Nobody was bashing Macs, just bashing the idea that they were sufficiently seaworthy as to be taken off shore and brave open ocean storms. Now go take a pill and relax, Macs have their place, as do canoes and paddle boats. Cheers Marty Jim That's right Marty... in fact, as the chief Mac-basher (apparently) I said near those exact words, but Jim doesn't want to hear... Ganz, I think what you said was: Assuming the boat can't sink (which I seriously doubt - given the pounding it would endure, it would likely break up), it would be dismasted for sure. Then, (not that sailing would have ever been an option), your only chance for survival would be below decks, while the boat rolled over and over and over, perhaps even pitchpolling from time to time. It would be like being in a washing machine with heavy and sharp objects. You'd find yourself in a non-habitable environment of flying hazards including yourself that would break your bones into mush. In desperation to escape, you would vacate the premises, and then either be thrown off the boat by the wave action or you would remove yourself from the boat deliberately. Either way, you wouldn't survive. Of course, you had no evidence whatsoever to back up those ridiculous assertions. Incidentally, I never thought of my Mac as a washing machine, but maybe I should look into it. Jim |
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