Ernest Scribbler wrote:

wrote

esp if they both had indicator lights.


A simple visual cue might be to install the switches in a three way
arrangement such that the lights are off when the switches are pointed in
the same direction at both stations. Or vice versa if you prefer, but you'd
have to remember which it is and remember to look.

Any way you do it has advantages and drawbacks, IE with series switches
you're less likely to accidentally leave a light on, while with parallel
switches you're less likely to think you've turned a light on when you
haven't. Indicator lamps would mitigate most of that, but they'd add a
little current draw and some complication.




Sounds like a job for - Relays!


--
(remove the X to email)

It's never too late to be the person you might have been.
George Elliot

Actually it would be a lot simpler than trying to rig up a 3 way circuit
between the nav station and the helm. A $12 hermetically sealed latching
relay and four 18 gauge wires. Probably more reliable too. Latching
relays have been around for a long time making millions of cycles in some
very nasty environments. Besides having one less connection, with a relay
the switches are redundant and the switch leads are not in the lighting
circuit and are energized for only a fraction of a second. . If either of
the switch circuits die the other will still work. In a 3-way the switches
are in series and the wires are carrying the lighting current any time the
lights are on increasing the chances for corrosion. If either switch dies
or any connector corrodes you are SOL..

Also with a 3-way arrangement all the current will have to travel all the
way to the cockpit and back regardless of which switch was thrown. Unless
you are 100% LED that is 30 or 40 feet of extra wire carrying enough amps to
handle four 20 watt bulbs or about a 2.5% voltage drop on #12 wire not
counting the wires going to the lights.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Cool. Someone who likes things more complicated than I do (or people here
think I do, anyway).

I've gone to LED nav lights so the voltage drop and consumption are not
such a big issue.

--
Roger Long

Wayne.B wrote:

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:26:12 -0600, cavelamb himself
wrote:


Any way you do it has advantages and drawbacks, IE with series switches
you're less likely to accidentally leave a light on, while with parallel
switches you're less likely to think you've turned a light on when you
haven't. Indicator lamps would mitigate most of that, but they'd add a
little current draw and some complication.




Sounds like a job for - Relays!


Good grief. There's nothing like complexity and additional points of
failure to muck up a boats reliability.



A second set of switches - wasn't my idea!

--
(remove the X to email)

It's never too late to be the person you might have been.
George Elliot

"Roger Long" wrote
I've gone to LED nav lights

Sweet. What kind?

"Roger Long" wrote
http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/08BowWork.htm

Ah. I'd seen that before, but I guess I missed that the lights are LEDs.

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Cool. Someone who likes things more complicated than I do (or people here
think I do, anyway).

I've gone to LED nav lights so the voltage drop and consumption are not
such a big issue.

--
Roger Long




There are all interesting suggestions. I agree that complexity shouldn't be
the goal, and I want something that is not much less bullet proof than what
I currently have.

I very much agree that one must confirm that on-ness or off-ness of the
lights no matter the setup. My intention was, is, will always be, to do that
confirmation at the fixture, but my goal here is to find something that can
be used relatively faster than having to go below or ask someone else to go
below, perhaps someone who is less familiar with the panel.

I teach and do charters on my boat, so I don't like to rely on a
student/customer to do something that I can't immediately confirm.

All things being equal, I'd like to be able to flip the switch on my own,
then, when the opportunity presents itself, confirm things are working.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while I always confirm my bow lights
work before I leave the dock, there's no easy and sometimes no safe way to
confirm they're on underway. I cannot imagine leaving the helm to go all the
way forward in less than ideal conditions or asking a less experienced
person to do so to confirm the bow lights are on. The masthead is easy to
confirm of course, as is the stern light.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
I've been thinking about adding duplicate switches for my nav lights to
the cockpit near the engine start. I guess they would be three-position
switches, since I'd like to be able to control them from their current
place, as well as closer to the helm. Has someone done this or has
suggestions about what to look or watchout for with respect to the type of
switch? My engine controls are in the aft laz under the seat, and it
should be pretty straightforward to run wires, etc.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

You could always replace the in cabin switches with manual/remote circuit
breakers (RCCBs) and place the circuit breaker control switches out in the
cockpit. That would keep the power circuit the same as you have it now and
the controls in both places would be exact duplicates, no need for three way
switches, etc. You would know if they were on or off too.

Amen!

Bob Crantz

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Capt. JG" wrote

Another thing to keep in mind is that while I always confirm my bow
lights work before I leave the dock, there's no easy and sometimes no
safe way to confirm they're on underway. I cannot imagine leaving the
helm to go all the way forward in less than ideal conditions or asking a
less experienced person to do so to confirm the bow lights are on.

If I look just at the right place, I can see the reflection of my running
lights on the pulpit from the helm. It just occured to me that I may not
on the new LED lights. Of course, I won't worry as much about whether LED
lights are burned out, one of the reasons I converted to them. A trick
used on some airplanes is to glue or attach a small tab of plastic to the
light. It will pick up the light and make a little spark of light that can
be seen from the cockpit. It should work on a boat.

--
Roger Long

I wouldn't be as concerned about a bulb going as I would about the rest of
the connection. I had a situation where my steaming light was out, so I
thought bulb. Replaced the bulb, and it worked fine. Then, a week later, was
out again. Hmmm.... had a local guy climb the mast (not my thing unless it's
an emergency) and clean the connection. The light lit. Then, two weeks
later, it was out *again*! Finally, I pulled off the access plate near the
maststep and found a very flakey looking connection. Fixed that, and it's
been working ever since.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:58:39 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in message
.. .
Cool. Someone who likes things more complicated than I do (or people
here
think I do, anyway).

I've gone to LED nav lights so the voltage drop and consumption are not
such a big issue.

--
Roger Long




There are all interesting suggestions. I agree that complexity shouldn't
be
the goal, and I want something that is not much less bullet proof than
what
I currently have.

I very much agree that one must confirm that on-ness or off-ness of the
lights no matter the setup. My intention was, is, will always be, to do
that
confirmation at the fixture, but my goal here is to find something that
can
be used relatively faster than having to go below or ask someone else to
go
below, perhaps someone who is less familiar with the panel.

I teach and do charters on my boat, so I don't like to rely on a
student/customer to do something that I can't immediately confirm.

All things being equal, I'd like to be able to flip the switch on my own,
then, when the opportunity presents itself, confirm things are working.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while I always confirm my bow lights
work before I leave the dock, there's no easy and sometimes no safe way to
confirm they're on underway. I cannot imagine leaving the helm to go all
the
way forward in less than ideal conditions or asking a less experienced
person to do so to confirm the bow lights are on. The masthead is easy to
confirm of course, as is the stern light.

If you are teaching, your boat probably should be set up as close to
"typical"
as possible. Your students need to learn what to expect when they get on a
boat
without you there to double check them. Setting up what you propose, to me
at
least, seems like it would be a disadvantage for the students. They need
to know
that just flicking the switch is not really enough. You need to flick the
switch
and then try to confirm that the lights came on.

It depends on if they're students or if it's a charter. Also, there's no
reason why they can't or shouldn't toggle the switch below in most cases.
This is not intended as a substitute for teaching, but I have to say that I
believe it's a minor issue even for that. My main area of interest is when I
need to get it done now in a variety of situations, including urgently with
students, urgently on a charter, or when I'm single-handing and don't want
to leave the helm. Even messing with the autohelm and remote control takes a
lot more time than this kind of setup would.

That said, If you do a little digging, there are "current sensor" devices
that
can be wired to your panel that sense if the lights out at the end of the
wires
are drawing current when the power is turned on. If the sensor doesn't
detect
current draw, it flashes a warning LED on the panel telling you which lamp
is
not lit. You can have individual sensors with indicators for each lamp
without
running extra wires all over creation. Of course if you can't go forward
to
check if the lights are lit, how are you going to get out there to fix one
that
the remote indicator says is not working? :')

I'm sure there are those available, but I think it's a bit overkill for my
intended purpose. I think there is a difference, however, between fixing (or
not as the case may be) and not being aware of it being down. I would much
rather know that something isn't working and not be able to do something
about it than not know.

I think it's more a redundancy issue that an absolute certainty issue.
Another part of the puzzle is whether or not I would even see the warning
LED, given where the switch would be placed. It's under the seat, so either
I'm toggling it or not. If it craps out after I use it, I wouldn't know.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

There are all interesting suggestions. I agree that complexity shouldn't
be the goal, and I want something that is not much less bullet proof than
what I currently have.

I very much agree that one must confirm that on-ness or off-ness of the
lights no matter the setup. My intention was, is, will always be, to do
that confirmation at the fixture, but my goal here is to find something
that can be used relatively faster than having to go below or ask someone
else to go below, perhaps someone who is less familiar with the panel.

I teach and do charters on my boat, so I don't like to rely on a
student/customer to do something that I can't immediately confirm.

All things being equal, I'd like to be able to flip the switch on my own,
then, when the opportunity presents itself, confirm things are working.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while I always confirm my bow lights
work before I leave the dock, there's no easy and sometimes no safe way to
confirm they're on underway. I cannot imagine leaving the helm to go all
the way forward in less than ideal conditions or asking a less experienced
person to do so to confirm the bow lights are on. The masthead is easy to
confirm of course, as is the stern light.

My instrument panel has an ammeter which tells me the total current being
drawn from the house battery by all the auxiliaries on the panel.
When you switch anything on, even a single mast light, you can see the
needle give a little kick which confirms that it is indeed working.
And yes, I know that a short circuit on the wiring would also give a kick,
probably much greater, but IMO you can ignore this possibility if you
manually check the operation of the lights occasionally.