Bob,

What a bunch of crap! How many people do you think actually know any of
the stuff that you're asking, other than the wight of their boat?
According to my logs, I've anchored in over 400 separate locations
throughout the Caribbean and the US, and without knowing the answers to
your questions, I've only managed to drag a handful of times. I've been
in storms at anchor that have reached 72 kts and have bent my anchor
roller assembly like a pretzel. See http://www.geoffschultz.org/2002
_Sailing/Honduras_Roatan/imagepages/image24.htm

What I do know is that I buy the highest quality components that I can
and I make sure that the load ratings match. There will always be a
weakest link, which will rear it's ugly head in those worst of
circumstances, but that isn't what this discussion is about.

I've cruised the Chesapeake and know that most towns only have 1-2
anchorages. In places like the Chesapeake I utilize cruising/anchoring
guides that provide me with basic information such as the holding. Do I
*know* what the bottom is? NO (but I'd bet it's mud in the Chesapeake),
so I'll rely on data gathered from people who have anchored there
before. Can I be sure that I didn't hook a plastic bag, tire, or who
knows what? No! Can I practice good anchoring techniques such as using
appropriate scope and backing down sufficiently hard? YES!

I used to utilize a 45 lb CQR as my primary anchor, but I replaced it
with a 25 KG Rocna and absolutely love the new anchor. I've been in
anchorages where other boats with CQRs were dragging and we stayed put.
If I was in turtle grass over sand, I always had to hand set the CQR,
but I don't have to do that with the Rocna. I'm thoroughly impressed.

Skip certainly has had more than his share of problems, and many of them
are self inflicted, but he's out there doing it and hopefully learning
from his mistakes. Many of the so-called experts in this forum spend
all of their time behind a computer and quote text books instead of
actually cruising. Maybe Skip is crazy by documenting his adventures
and misfortunes in such a public fashion, but I give him credit for not
giving up.

-- Geoff

Bob wrote in news:1193467621.642831.28750
@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

On Oct 26, 6:32 am, Skip Gundlach wrote:
October 26 - What A Drag!

Skip

Dear Skip..................................

Please supply the following data;

1) what is the weight of your boat?

2) How much DRAG (pull on your ground tackle) does your boat create
in the following winds

15 knots _________ pounds

30 knots _________ pounds

42 knots _________ pounds

60 knots_________ pounds

What is the SAFE WORKING LOAD of your chain AND conections (shackles)
and any eye splices. "purdy strong" wont work. I need pounds rated for
EACH item in your anchoring system.... or what normal people call
"ground tackle."

Can you tell me exactly what type bottom youre over???
HOw would you find out if you dont know? If you say look at a chart
youre only 20% right.

If you can not supply the requested information simply kiss your ass
goodbuy.

NOw for some other comments................................
The weight of your anchor is not the only consideration when
calculating "holding ability"
ANchoring is NOT rocket science NOR a magical art.

Its just plain old fassioned RIGGING! and i dont mean rigging as the
yachting group defines it. To be honest most choker setters know more
about rigging than the average "captain" on every sail boat Ive talked
to. ANd ya cant get more stupid than a choker setter.! Hell, guys have
been dragging ships off beaches for hundreds of years. How do they do
that???? A few anchors, some wire rope, a purchase or two. If a bunch
of a two pack a day alcoholic thick knecked salvors can do it a Bank
President with a univesity degree should be able to figure it out dont
ya think Skip?

To think all you need is an Acme FX 99 anchor to keep yo from draging
is naive at best.

Dear SKIP............... go read the following book and stop making
such a public fool of yourself.

"The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring", by Earl Hintz,

Bob








--
-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

On 2007-10-27 08:22:45 -0400, Geoff Schultz said:

Skip certainly has had more than his share of problems, and many of
them are self inflicted, but he's out there doing it and hopefully
learning from his mistakes. Many of the so-called experts in this
forum spend all of their time behind a computer and quote text books
instead of actually cruising. Maybe Skip is crazy by documenting his
adventures and misfortunes in such a public fashion, but I give him
credit for not giving up.

BINGO!

I rag on him on occasion, but generally because I forget how new he and
Lydia are to cruising. They have researched things and intellectually
"know" so much that I expect more that can be reasonably expected.

BUT, even experienced sailors in their home turf can make mistakes.

Case in point: Last weekend, we sorta hosted a raft-up of Tanzers.
Someone else called the rendezvous, but I refined the location to the
anchorage nearest to our dock. This is an anchorage we anchored in
probably 30 days this season. (for those that know the Chesapeake, this
is Fairlee Creek.)

But, because it was after the powerboats' season, I chose to try out
just behind the sand spit, normally clogged up with "them".

'Tis a WONDERFUL spot. We could see everyone coming in the channel
through 3+ foot Chesapeake chop while we luxuriated in nearly flat
conditions on the other side of the spit. The view of the full moon
coming up was inspirational.

But, I neglected to consider what happens when 20+ knot winds shift
from southerly to northerly on the Bay. Been there before, but this
time I just didn't think about the effects of such a shift.

About 1 AM we noticed we were aground and at about 10 degree heel.

By 3 AM, that was 35 degrees by our inclinometer.

By 6 AM (with high tide at 9:30), things weren't better, so it's time
to call Towboat US. They got to us a bit before high tide and pulled
both of us off with pretty much zero problem. I don't believe he
actually dialed up to full power as we were spit like watermelon seeds
the 100 or so feet to sufficient water.

Our sister rafted up to us reported 50 degree heel, but I never saw
higher than 35 (and our mast was always further over than theirs.)

Which is part of an indication of our difference in acceptance of our
shared plight. Pat and I got pretty good sleep that night. We were
heeled over so had to sleep pretty much on the side of the boat in
separate berths, (separate berths always disturbs our sleep), but there
weren't any creaks or groans from the boat, we weren't pounding or in
any evident danger, so we slept as soundly as we normally do, waiting
for high tide.

Our sister's distaff admiral wasn't as sanguine. She was literally sick
that night, probably got no real sleep, and called for a land-ride home
the next morning. Their poor captain probably is still catching a load
of baggage from my mistake.

Oh, my primary mistake? Forgetting that anchorages can have different
bottoms and holding in different areas. I "knew" that anchorage so well
that I expected the bottom next to the sand spit to be like the rest of
the anchorage: so forgiving that I don't even bother to back down on
the anchor. any more Only after a bit of thought did I realize that an
area easily swept of all water would be hard sand rather than lots of
mud. My clue should have been no vegetation bouncing the depth
soundings to impossible shallows as I came in.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 01:42:57 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:

On 2007-10-27 08:22:45 -0400, Geoff Schultz said:

Skip certainly has had more than his share of problems, and many of
them are self inflicted, but he's out there doing it and hopefully
learning from his mistakes. Many of the so-called experts in this
forum spend all of their time behind a computer and quote text books
instead of actually cruising. Maybe Skip is crazy by documenting his
adventures and misfortunes in such a public fashion, but I give him
credit for not giving up.

BINGO!

I rag on him on occasion, but generally because I forget how new he and
Lydia are to cruising. They have researched things and intellectually
"know" so much that I expect more that can be reasonably expected.

BUT, even experienced sailors in their home turf can make mistakes.

Case in point: Last weekend, we sorta hosted a raft-up of Tanzers.
Someone else called the rendezvous, but I refined the location to the
anchorage nearest to our dock. This is an anchorage we anchored in
probably 30 days this season. (for those that know the Chesapeake, this
is Fairlee Creek.)

But, because it was after the powerboats' season, I chose to try out
just behind the sand spit, normally clogged up with "them".

'Tis a WONDERFUL spot. We could see everyone coming in the channel
through 3+ foot Chesapeake chop while we luxuriated in nearly flat
conditions on the other side of the spit. The view of the full moon
coming up was inspirational.

But, I neglected to consider what happens when 20+ knot winds shift
from southerly to northerly on the Bay. Been there before, but this
time I just didn't think about the effects of such a shift.

About 1 AM we noticed we were aground and at about 10 degree heel.

By 3 AM, that was 35 degrees by our inclinometer.

Some snipped

I think the big difference between Skip and the rest of us is that
Skip doesn't appear to be shy about chronicling his screw-ups. If it
were me and I had dragged two or three times in the same area I'd keep
it a deep dark secret. Skip 'fesses up to his short comings.

I certainly don't tell people about the time I sailed into a bay
depending on a 50 year old survey only to discover that coral grows
quite a bit in 50 years, or the time I tried to pick up a mooring only
to discover that the "orange ball" wasn't a mooring, it was a buoy the
local fishermen put out to mark shallow water.

To quote an old saying, "there are people who have run aground, people
who are going to run aground and damned liars".

Skip certainly don't fall in the last group.




Bruce-in-Bangkok
(Note:displayed e-mail
address is a spam trap)

On Oct 27, 2:47 am, Bob wrote:
On Oct 26, 6:32 am, Skip Gundlach wrote:

October 26 - What A Drag!
Skip

Dear Skip..................................

Please supply the following data;

1) what is the weight of your boat?

2) How much DRAG (pull on your ground tackle) does your boat create
in the following winds

15 knots _________ pounds

30 knots _________ pounds

42 knots _________ pounds

60 knots_________ pounds

What is the SAFE WORKING LOAD of your chain AND conections (shackles)
and any eye splices. "purdy strong" wont work. I need pounds rated for
EACH item in your anchoring system.... or what normal people call
"ground tackle."

Can you tell me exactly what type bottom youre over???
HOw would you find out if you dont know? If you say look at a chart
youre only 20% right.

If you can not supply the requested information simply kiss your ass
goodbuy.

NOw for some other comments................................
The weight of your anchor is not the only consideration when
calculating "holding ability"
ANchoring is NOT rocket science NOR a magical art.

Its just plain old fassioned RIGGING! and i dont mean rigging as the
yachting group defines it. To be honest most choker setters know more
about rigging than the average "captain" on every sail boat Ive talked
to. ANd ya cant get more stupid than a choker setter.! Hell, guys have
been dragging ships off beaches for hundreds of years. How do they do
that???? A few anchors, some wire rope, a purchase or two. If a bunch
of a two pack a day alcoholic thick knecked salvors can do it a Bank
President with a univesity degree should be able to figure it out dont
ya think Skip?

To think all you need is an Acme FX 99 anchor to keep yo from draging
is naive at best.

Dear SKIP............... go read the following book and stop making
such a public fool of yourself.

"The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring", by Earl Hintz,

Bob

Hi, Bob, and group,

Answers to your questions:

1) Boat as built was 33K, but with all the stuff, I presume to be at
about 40K. No lift ever showed that much - but I can't believe it any
less. Yes, I know, that's not a scientifically sound answer, but
absent calibrated strain guages and a specific project to determine
that, I doubt I'll ever know - at least not without putting it in a
very carefully calibrated tank to measure the displacement.

In any case, the windage, at least to me, would be the more
significant issue. Not being an engineer (perhaps Roger, or you, if
you are one, too) could tell me if that's a reasonable premise.

2) I have not put a strain guage, not owning one, on my chain.
Further, thanks, I've not (yet) been in anything - at anchor - which
exceeded 40 knots. Again, if I had the calculated windage, and the
proper means (not an engineer) of calculation of wind forces I could
probably tell you - but I can't.

The SWL on the shackles and swivels is well in excess of my chain,
which is all 5/16HT, G40 hotdipped galvanized, which SWL I don't
recall at the moment. However, at the time I sized it/them, the chain
was sufficient by all popular measures, and the swivels and shackles,
what with my not wanting to have the weakest point at the anchor, were
well over that. I gave several vendors a hard time when they couldn't
be definitive about the SWL, until I got very specific information on
the parts I bought. Generally speaking, other than chain, which if I
did would be unwieldy for the weight, I've gone at least one size
larger than recommended, which is how I wound up with 130# of anchor
on the bow rollers.

As to eye splices, we have only one on the bow, and that's on the
secondary anchor, which has in front of it 175' of the aforementioned
stuff. That is to a size up from recommended, not 5/8 but 3/4
MegaBraid, spliced properly. There's not a better way to do it and
have it go through the gypsy, so it's as good as it's going to get
without that side being all chain as well. New England Rope feels very
confident in that method of splice, so, as I can't prove them wrong,
it's what I did.

Our snubbers are in one case 5/8 threestrand on a logging hook, and
3/4 MegaBraid as above on a rather more hightech hook designed for
5/16. When we back down, including on the earlier mentioned
adventures, it stretches very significantly. No, I don't know the SWL
on those, either, but I did at the time. I'm not going to bother to
look it up for this exercise.

As to the supplementary anchoring gear, we have a Fortress 37, a
CQR45, and two smaller danforths, along with rode bags. Those have
the aforementioned MegaBraid and 3/8BBB as which came with the boat as
built, but only about 30', as to carry that in the dink would be
problematic for more. I have additional hundreds of feet of both 3/4
Megabraid and 5/8 threestrand aboard to extend the 300' standard on
all our rodes, whether all chain or part.

As to finding out exactly what kind of bottom I'm over, throwing a
small anchor overboard, setting it hard (and dragging, as would be
possible with a small one other than hooked terminally on some rock or
other obstruction), motoring over it and then pulling it up to inspect
what came up would be my favored one in waters other than conducive to
diving. As my current professor, however, I expect you'll correct me
as to the actual proper means.

Local knowledge might help, but I've learned to be very distrustful of
LN, as, from what I've gotten and experienced, it's many times either
wrong or malicious.

As to your other comments, I believe I'm aware of what you mentioned,
other than I don't know the term "Choker Setter" - a clear deficiency
in my education which I will work diligently to remedy.

As to reading, I agree that the Hinz (Hintz?) book will be worth
acquiring - but I've not yet crossed its path. The Seven Seas flea
market at Annapolis provided me with two others I've been seeking,
Storm Tactics (on which much storm has been occasioned in these parts
recently) and Heavy Weather Sailing.

As to being a public fool, how else would I get publicly taken
properly to task so I could become less of one in private???

:{))

L8R

Skip

PS are you a character in a Steven Patsis-created strip's character's
occasional novelizations? Certainly, nearly anything I read suggests
a match...

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"You are never given a wish without also being given the power to
make it come true. You may have to work for it however."
(and)
"There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its
hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts."
(Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah)

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 27, 2:47 am, Bob wrote:
On Oct 26, 6:32 am, Skip Gundlach wrote:

If a bunch
of a two pack a day alcoholic thick knecked salvors can do it a Bank
President with a univesity degree should be able to figure it out dont
ya think Skip?



Hey Skip

Were you a Bank President? What Bank? Just curious. I work for a Bank in
Oz and for many years while working for another bank was a member of Robert
Morris.

Hoges in WA
as in Western Australia.

By the way, you keep finding all sorts of place where the holding's not so
good. My wife and I will be going up the east coast of the US in a couple
of years and anywheres you come to grief I'm going to pay particular
attention to.

Hoges in WA wrote:
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
....

By the way, you keep finding all sorts of place where the holding's not so
good. My wife and I will be going up the east coast of the US in a couple
of years and anywheres you come to grief I'm going to pay particular
attention to.


The holding is just fine. Skip's problem is that he's using a Delta in
soft mud where it is not at its best. I use a Delta all the time in New
England where the bottom is somewhat thicker, but in the soft Chesapeake
mud a Danforth style is needed. A Fortress is good, especially when the
flukes are set at the "mud" angle. However, they can have a problem
resetting if the mud is too thick, or if the flukes have been fouled. A
good approach, then, is to set two anchors off the bow - one Delta or
CQR that will reset and at worst only drag slowly, and one Fortress that
will dig deep in the soft mud. Either of the anchors should hold if
well set; both of them guarantees an anxiety-free night.

I carry a 35# Delta on 50 feet of chain plus a Fortress FX23 with only a
short chain ready on deck. You really don't want big chain on the mud
anchor because that can prevent it from digging in quickly. Also, the
Fortress shouldn't be too big because it will be deployed by hand,
possibly even rowed out. Usually I just power over to Port and drop the
the Fortress, but I've rowed or even walked it to a good spot. Having a
big heavy second anchor is not good incentive to actually using it -
Skip's experience is a case in point.

On Oct 27, 2:47 am, Bob wrote:
On Oct 26, 6:32 am, Skip Gundlach wrote:

October 26 - What A Drag!
Skip

Dear Skip..................................

Please supply the following data;

1) what is the weight of your boat?

2) How much DRAG (pull on your ground tackle) does your boat create
in the following winds

15 knots _________ pounds

30 knots _________ pounds

42 knots _________ pounds

60 knots_________ pounds

What is the SAFE WORKING LOAD of your chain AND conections (shackles)
and any eye splices. "purdy strong" wont work. I need pounds rated for
EACH item in your anchoring system.... or what normal people call
"ground tackle."

Can you tell me exactly what type bottom youre over???
HOw would you find out if you dont know? If you say look at a chart
youre only 20% right.

If you can not supply the requested information simply kiss your ass
goodbuy.

NOw for some other comments................................
The weight of your anchor is not the only consideration when
calculating "holding ability"
ANchoring is NOT rocket science NOR a magical art.

Its just plain old fassioned RIGGING! and i dont mean rigging as the
yachting group defines it. To be honest most choker setters know more
about rigging than the average "captain" on every sail boat Ive talked
to. ANd ya cant get more stupid than a choker setter.! Hell, guys have
been dragging ships off beaches for hundreds of years. How do they do
that???? A few anchors, some wire rope, a purchase or two. If a bunch
of a two pack a day alcoholic thick knecked salvors can do it a Bank
President with a univesity degree should be able to figure it out dont
ya think Skip?

To think all you need is an Acme FX 99 anchor to keep yo from draging
is naive at best.

Dear SKIP............... go read the following book and stop making
such a public fool of yourself.

"The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring", by Earl Hintz,

Bob

Hi, Bob, and group,

Answers to your questions:

1) Boat as built was 33K, but with all the stuff, I presume to be at
about 40K. No lift ever showed that much - but I can't believe it any
less. Yes, I know, that's not a scientifically sound answer, but
absent calibrated strain guages and a specific project to determine
that, I doubt I'll ever know - at least not without putting it in a
very carefully calibrated tank to measure the displacement.

In any case, the windage, at least to me, would be the more
significant issue. Not being an engineer (perhaps Roger, or you, if
you are one, too) could tell me if that's a reasonable premise.

2) I have not put a strain guage, not owning one, on my chain.
Further, thanks, I've not (yet) been in anything - at anchor - which
exceeded 40 knots. Again, if I had the calculated windage, and the
proper means (not an engineer) of calculation of wind forces I could
probably tell you - but I can't.

The SWL on the shackles and swivels is well in excess of my chain,
which is all 5/16HT, G40 hotdipped galvanized, which SWL I don't
recall at the moment. However, at the time I sized it/them, the chain
was sufficient by all popular measures, and the swivels and shackles,
what with my not wanting to have the weakest point at the anchor, were
well over that. I gave several vendors a hard time when they couldn't
be definitive about the SWL, until I got very specific information on
the parts I bought. Generally speaking, other than chain, which if I
did would be unwieldy for the weight, I've gone at least one size
larger than recommended, which is how I wound up with 130# of anchor
on the bow rollers.

As to eye splices, we have only one on the bow, and that's on the
secondary anchor, which has in front of it 175' of the aforementioned
stuff. That is to a size up from recommended, not 5/8 but 3/4
MegaBraid, spliced properly. There's not a better way to do it and
have it go through the gypsy, so it's as good as it's going to get
without that side being all chain as well. New England Rope feels very
confident in that method of splice, so, as I can't prove them wrong,
it's what I did.

Our snubbers are in one case 5/8 threestrand on a logging hook, and
3/4 MegaBraid as above on a rather more hightech hook designed for
5/16. When we back down, including on the earlier mentioned
adventures, it stretches very significantly. No, I don't know the SWL
on those, either, but I did at the time. I'm not going to bother to
look it up for this exercise.

As to the supplementary anchoring gear, we have a Fortress 37, a
CQR45, and two smaller danforths, along with rode bags. Those have
the aforementioned MegaBraid and 3/8BBB as which came with the boat as
built, but only about 30', as to carry that in the dink would be
problematic for more. I have additional hundreds of feet of both 3/4
Megabraid and 5/8 threestrand aboard to extend the 300' standard on
all our rodes, whether all chain or part.

As to finding out exactly what kind of bottom I'm over, throwing a
small anchor overboard, setting it hard (and dragging, as would be
possible with a small one other than hooked terminally on some rock or
other obstruction), motoring over it and then pulling it up to inspect
what came up would be my favored one in waters other than conducive to
diving. As my current professor, however, I expect you'll correct me
as to the actual proper means.

Local knowledge might help, but I've learned to be very distrustful of
LN, as, from what I've gotten and experienced, it's many times either
wrong or malicious.

As to your other comments, I believe I'm aware of what you mentioned,
other than I don't know the term "Choker Setter" - a clear deficiency
in my education which I will work diligently to remedy.

As to reading, I agree that the Hinz (Hintz?) book will be worth
acquiring - but I've not yet crossed its path. The Seven Seas flea
market at Annapolis provided me with two others I've been seeking,
Storm Tactics (on which much storm has been occasioned in these parts
recently) and Heavy Weather Sailing.

As to being a public fool, how else would I get publicly taken
properly to task so I could become less of one in private???

:{))

L8R

Skip

PS are you a character in a Steven Patsis-created strip's character's
occasional novelizations? Certainly, nearly anything I read suggests
a match...

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"You are never given a wish without also being given the power to
make it come true. You may have to work for it however."
(and)
"There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its
hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts."
(Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah)

On Oct 27, 5:57 am, Skip Gundlach wrote:
On Oct 27, 2:47 am, Bob wrote:


Hi, Bob, and group,

Answers to your questions:

1) Boat as built was 33K, but with all the stuff, I presume to be at
about 40K.

That works. Thank you.

2) I have not put a strain guage, not owning one, on my chain.

That is not necessary. IF you have read :

"The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring", by Earl Hintz,


The SWL on the shackles and swivels is well in excess of my chain,

This I do not belive......................... How can you get a
shackel pin that equals the BREAKING STRENGTH of chain tthrough the
5/16 chain link???

Try it. It dont work. That is unless........................


As to eye splices, we have only one on the bow,

MegaBraid, spliced properly.

According to who............. the Sampson Cordage Compny or the guy at
West marine???

There's not a better way to do it and
have it go through the gypsy,

And there is your problem right there Skip. Ease and comfort compared
to reliability and safety. You talk-talk-talk and make excuess but
never seem to seek accurate info. Maybe having it go through the gypsy
is not the ONLY/best way to do it.


so it's as good as it's going to get
without that side being all chain as well. New England Rope feels very
confident in that method of splice, so, as I can't prove them wrong,
it's what I did.

They sell the stuff to guys like you knowing you DEMAND the line to go
through a gypsy. Ever ask the England or Sampson people what the
strengh of that attachment creates???? My guess is 60% at best. But
ask the engeers at the company.


As to the supplementary anchoring gear, we have a Fortress 37, a
CQR45, and two smaller danforths, along with rode bags. Those have
the aforementioned MegaBraid and 3/8BBB as which came with the boat as
built, but only about 30', as to carry that in the dink would be
problematic for more. I have additional hundreds of feet of both 3/4
Megabraid and 5/8 threestrand aboard to extend the 300' standard on
all our rodes, whether all chain or part.


But yet you almost ended up on the rocks again........... WHY???



As to finding out exactly what kind of bottom I'm over, throwing a
small anchor overboard, setting it hard (and dragging, as would be
possible with a small one other than hooked terminally on some rock or
other obstruction), motoring over it and then pulling it up to inspect
what came up would be my favored one in waters other than conducive to
diving. As my current professor, however, I expect you'll correct me
as to the actual proper means.



No, I'll let that task to a more knowledgable person....

"The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring", by Earl Hintz,



I don't know the term "Choker Setter" - a clear deficiency
in my education which I will work diligently to remedy.

No need.



As to reading, I agree that the Hinz (Hintz?) book will be worth
acquiring - but I've not yet crossed its path.

For god sakes man. Just go to a book store and order it ! ! ! or go
on line and order it

Bob

On Oct 27, 2:39 pm, Bob wrote:
2) I have not put a strain guage, not owning one, on my
chain.


That is not necessary. IF you have read :

"The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring", by Earl Hintz,

I wasn't able to find any author by that name. However, I have,
now, read a 21-year-old text by that name and which had Earl
Hinz, as I offered in my reply before, as the author. For someone
as picky as you seem to be about exactitude, I assumed you meant
what you wrote, not a careless error, repeated not once but twice
later. A simple glance at what I presume to be the book from
which you cribbed all the questions would have given you the
proper spelling of his name. Don't insult the author with a
misspelling. How'd you like to have your name be repeatedly
misspelled as Boob, even after correcting the misspeller??.


The SWL on the shackles and swivels is well in excess of my
chain,


This I do not belive......................... How can you get a
shackel pin that equals the BREAKING STRENGTH of chain tthrough
the
5/16 chain link???

Try it. It dont work. That is unless........................

Can't tell you that. I didn't do the design engineering and
testing on the products I bought. However, when a product has
both a label with the maker and whatever testing institute
specifying a SWL greater than my chain, I don't engage an
engineering firm to prove them wrong. Some things you have to
take on faith. How do *YOU* attach your chain?



As to eye splices, we have only one on the bow,
MegaBraid, spliced properly.


According to who............. the Sampson Cordage Compny or the
guy at
West marine???

According to New England Rope, the maker. Samson (there you go
again - it's not samPson) Rope (not Cordage Company)
(www.samsonrope.com - Samson Rope Technologies, Inc.) makes
interesting stuff, but I don't have any of it aboard. If you'd
like, I'll conduct a seminar on those splices. I'm reasonably
good at it. It ain't rocket science. Chain, eye, deadeye/end or
whatever you want to call it, it will look good and hold
magnificently. Their pdf DCR 448 Initial Release, publication
MISP87 will give you more information.

For further reading you may enjoy S9086-UU-STM-010/CH-613R3, revision
3 or higher, NAVAL SHIPS' TECHNICAL MANUAL, CHAPTER 613, WIRE AND
FIBER ROPE AND RIGGING, which addresses types of line (including wire)
and splicing strengths for various types of splices.


There's not a better way to do it and



have it go through the gypsy,


And there is your problem right there Skip. Ease and comfort
compared
to reliability and safety. You talk-talk-talk and make excuess
but
never seem to seek accurate info. Maybe having it go through
the gypsy
is not the ONLY/best way to do it.

I didn't say it was the only way. I said it was the only way to
have it go through the gypsy. I invite you to document (Hinz'
over-20-year-old stuff doesn't address the state of the art
today) a more effective way to make rope and chain continuous -
not with a honking big thimble or other stuff in the middle of
it. When I have all chain on the one which goes through the
gypsy, all the time, and only have said splice in a location
which would only see use in either extreme situations or very
deep locations on the secondary or tertiary or quartenary
applications said later two not using the windlass in any event,
I don't get fussed about it. Further, as you've pointed out,
chain doesn't have a very large aperture; putting a 3/4" line
through a thimble or other chafe resistant device is even more
difficult than finding some metal which will exceed the strength
of the chain when you put its pin through it.


so it's as good as it's going to get



without that side being all chain as well. New England Rope
feels very
confident in that method of splice, so, as I can't prove them
wrong,
it's what I did.


They sell the stuff to guys like you knowing you DEMAND the
line to go
through a gypsy. Ever ask the England or Sampson people what
the
strengh of that attachment creates???? My guess is 60% at best.
But
ask the engeers at the company.

See the above references...



As to the supplementary anchoring gear, we have a Fortress 37,
a
CQR45, and two smaller danforths, along with rode bags. Those
have
the aforementioned MegaBraid and 3/8BBB as which came with the
boat as
built, but only about 30', as to carry that in the dink would
be
problematic for more. I have additional hundreds of feet of
both 3/4
Megabraid and 5/8 threestrand aboard to extend the 300'
standard on
all our rodes, whether all chain or part.


But yet you almost ended up on the rocks again...........
WHY???

Well, apparently several reasons. None are particularly
important; I presume it to be that I misread a fouled anchor,
when, instead, it was a lousy mud bottom which had done me in on
the first pull. Not having sampled the bottom directly, but only
by apparent set, I didn't know the nature of it as being -
apparently, in hindsight - the same lousy stuff we abandoned on
the other side of the channel when we first started on our time
in Oxford, when we didn't set well, and I did, indeed, do the bottom
sample, albeit with a 55# Delta.

And there were no rocks in evidence nor anywhere in the vicinity as
far as I could determine. Mud is reasonably forgiving, if not very
good holding. It allows for a certain comfort level...

The second anchoring was quite sufficient, in any case, even for
the more severe wind conditions (yes, I know, severe is relative,
and the conditions of what I had were not severe by hurricane,
tropical cyclone or even storm [as varied from gale or half gale]
circumstance) which presented following our reanchoring.


As to finding out exactly what kind of bottom I'm over,
throwing a
small anchor overboard, setting it hard (and dragging, as
would be
possible with a small one other than hooked terminally on some
rock or
other obstruction), motoring over it and then pulling it up to
inspect
what came up would be my favored one in waters other than
conducive to
diving. As my current professor, however, I expect you'll
correct me
as to the actual proper means.



No, I'll let that task to a more knowledgable person....

"The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring", by Earl Hintz,

I can't find anything by him. However, in the book of the same name
by Hinz, the author suggests sampling only a very small portion of
only the surface. If you thought that duck consisted of a few inch
circle of feathers, you'd be missing a pretty good meal, but that's
what you'd get with his soap, grease or other sticky to pull up
something from the bottom. I'll take a core sample or at least a foot
or so of some other means, thanks. No, you're correct that I didn't
do that in my second anchoring location; had I, I might have anchored
differently. My bad. But then, again, I've never been shy about
admitting those, have I?




I don't know the term "Choker Setter" - a clear deficiency
in my education which I will work diligently to remedy.


No need.


As to reading, I agree that the Hinz (Hintz?) book will be
worth
acquiring - but I've not yet crossed its path.



For god sakes man. Just go to a book store and order it ! ! !
or go
on line and order it

Already read it. Well, already read what I presume you intended
me to read, not something by a nonexistent Hintz. Interesting
reading and I see that it's where you got all your questions.
Now that I know how to find the means to calculate, perhaps I'll
do that. Other than the minutiae of calculation, I didn't see
anything in the book which was new information to me; I did see lots
of old data/equipment and not the first word about third generation
anchors which are available today...

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going back to my movie.


Bob

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
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