Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
posted to rec.boats.paddle
|
|||
|
|||
Drag devices
As new tandem kayak team, we recently got caught in water that was
beyond our capability. The wind and waves quickly turned our boat and rolled us. I was able to right the boat and climb back in; however, I'd be dumped trying to bring it around into the wind... uktimately, the Coast Guard had to pull us out. First, of course, stay out of that position; however, given that you're there, does anyone carry a drag device, aka: a sea anchor or drogue. If so, what type and size to you use? How do you rig it? At which end of the boat do you keep it standby? It's like a life jacket in that, when you need it, you won't have time to dig it out and attach it. As I understand, a "sea anchor" is a different idea from a "drogue" in that a sea anchor is supposed to hold you essentially stationary with bow into the wind and a drogue is a smaller device that's towed and keeps the stern into the wind while affording some steering of the boat. Am I on the right sheet of music? I see that *Para Sail* makes a 36" drouge... I'd assume that ought to be big enough for a kayak???? Jones |
#2
posted to rec.boats.paddle
|
|||
|
|||
Drag devices
I don't know anything about drogues, so I'll say something I do know
about. Before you add complex gear... 1. Get some training. It's unclear if you are new kayakers or only a new tandem team, but you should learn to deal with wind and waves in a safe location that doesn't require Coasties. 2. Pay better attention to conditions 3. Don't go out as a single boat. Glad to hear you're OK. Must have been a scary time. Steve !Jones wrote: As new tandem kayak team, we recently got caught in water that was beyond our capability. The wind and waves quickly turned our boat and rolled us. I was able to right the boat and climb back in; however, I'd be dumped trying to bring it around into the wind... uktimately, the Coast Guard had to pull us out. First, of course, stay out of that position; however, given that you're there, does anyone carry a drag device, aka: a sea anchor or drogue. If so, what type and size to you use? How do you rig it? At which end of the boat do you keep it standby? It's like a life jacket in that, when you need it, you won't have time to dig it out and attach it. As I understand, a "sea anchor" is a different idea from a "drogue" in that a sea anchor is supposed to hold you essentially stationary with bow into the wind and a drogue is a smaller device that's towed and keeps the stern into the wind while affording some steering of the boat. Am I on the right sheet of music? I see that *Para Sail* makes a 36" drouge... I'd assume that ought to be big enough for a kayak???? Jones -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA |
#3
posted to rec.boats.paddle
|
|||
|
|||
Drag devices
!Jones wrote:
As new tandem kayak team, we recently got caught in water that was beyond our capability. The wind and waves quickly turned our boat and rolled us. I was able to right the boat and climb back in; however, I'd be dumped trying to bring it around into the wind... uktimately, the Coast Guard had to pull us out. Forgive me for not answering your actual question, but (perhaps you might experiment with this suggestion in a strong wind under otherwise-controlled conditions): With a capsized boat and two swimmers, would it not make sense to orient the boat bow-on to the wind *before* righting it (when, hull-up, it would offer considerably less wind resistance, thus less inclination to remain beam-on) then, after the first swimmer re-enters, have that person maintain the orientation by paddling, while the second swimmer re-enters? Then, having both re-entered while the boat is awash, take turns, one pumping while the other maintains orientation by paddling. You could, incidently, leave one cockpit half full of water and pump the other completely dry. The boat would settle toward the end with the half-watered cockpit, creating a weather-vane effect where the other end would tend to point downwind. The choice of which cockpit to leave partly full of water would be made on the basis of which way you want the boat to point once you have yourself all sorted out. Hmmm, I guess this weather-vane effect would be the basis for which paddler would re-enter first: the paddler at the end you want, ultimately, to be up-wind. Not a kayaker, so I'm jus' speculatin' about how to re-enter. The weather-vane effect, though, has been demonstrated in canoes making open crossings. Usually achieved by shifting the paddler position or the cargo, but, well... kayaks and kayakers are different, eh? -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters ================================================== ==================== |
#4
posted to rec.boats.paddle
|
|||
|
|||
Drag devices
Steve Cramer wrote: I don't know anything about drogues, so I'll say something I do know about. Before you add complex gear... 1. Get some training. It's unclear if you are new kayakers or only a new tandem team, but you should learn to deal with wind and waves in a safe location that doesn't require Coasties. 2. Pay better attention to conditions 3. Don't go out as a single boat. Glad to hear you're OK. Must have been a scary time. Steve !Jones wrote: As new tandem kayak team, we recently got caught in water that was beyond our capability. The wind and waves quickly turned our boat and rolled us. I was able to right the boat and climb back in; however, I'd be dumped trying to bring it around into the wind... uktimately, the Coast Guard had to pull us out. First, of course, stay out of that position; however, given that you're there, does anyone carry a drag device, aka: a sea anchor or drogue. If so, what type and size to you use? How do you rig it? At which end of the boat do you keep it standby? It's like a life jacket in that, when you need it, you won't have time to dig it out and attach it. As I understand, a "sea anchor" is a different idea from a "drogue" in that a sea anchor is supposed to hold you essentially stationary with bow into the wind and a drogue is a smaller device that's towed and keeps the stern into the wind while affording some steering of the boat. Am I on the right sheet of music? I see that *Para Sail* makes a 36" drouge... I'd assume that ought to be big enough for a kayak???? Jones -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA I would echo what Steve is saying!! Sounds to me like you have some other problems in the weight distribution in your tandem. I am not clear about whether you were out single or tandem when you had this incident occur. Even if you were tandem to start with, once you rolled, you would have weight issues until you were both back in the boat, and weight was again properly distributed.. I have seen numerous discussions about the use of sea anchors and drogues on various sailing forums, and the consensus seems to be that they are not recommended under normal situations where you would typically have one ready to deploy on the deck. One big problem is that for them to work you have to have a great deal of line deployed at the same time. This becomes a major hazard if you are in the water, and subject to being hung up on all that line. If the first thing you have to do is cut the line loose, the drogue would have accomplished little, and only constituted false assurance of being able to control your boat in a wind. Also when deployed they seriously hamper your ability to steer or control the boat freely. The wave action is variable, and you need to be flexible to respond. They were meant for larger sailing vessels to ride out a storm in open ocean, which is not where you are typically using a kayak. Also they would be inclined to self deploy at a very inopertune time such as when you are in heavy surf and crossing seas! To all of a sudden have a sea anchor inhibiting your ability to control the boat, could be a very rude awakening! TnT |
#5
posted to rec.boats.paddle
|
|||
|
|||
Drag devices
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:11:25 -0400, in rec.boats.paddle Steve Cramer
wrote: 1. Get some training. It's unclear if you are new kayakers or only a new tandem team, but you should learn to deal with wind and waves in a safe location that doesn't require Coasties. 2. Pay better attention to conditions 3. Don't go out as a single boat. Thank you for the lecture. 1. It was a Coast Guard sopnsored training session held with a lifeboat standing by. 2. The conditions were pretty generic to the area in which we live: 20 knot wind, 4' chop on a 9 second period. No fun, these, but, if you plan to paddle hereabouts, you'd better be able to deal with that. 3. When you end up in the laundry, another kayak isn't much help, IMO. I had other boats all around me. But, seriously, when you're flipped by a wave, are you *really* thinking about getting some training? Can one really learn how to handle a kayak in adverse conditions by reading some books on the subject? ... by getting advice from experts? We chose that spot and those conditions because we thought they'd be challenging; however, they would not life threatening. (Although, about my third time through the rinse cycle, I wasn't so sure about that.) We were not able to right the boat and remount. Our spotters gave us time, then came in and fished us out. On reflection, I think that a drag device might have helped... *that* was the meat of the question. *I* couldn't orient the nose-high tandem boat and get back to my stoker. ( And I believe I said that one should avoid that situation.) Now, an unsolicited lectu If you don't wish to fight incessant flame wars, then refrain from giving out unsolicited lectures. While what you say is perfectly valid and nobody in their right mind would argue otherwise, it comes across as pedantic and patronizing. I *love* to fight flame wars, personally; however, I'm not seeking one at the moment... I'm *still* sore from my Monday evening pasting in the chop. I would suggest that no training session in the world matches a good laundering for impressing one just how powerful the waves are!!! Jones |
#6
posted to rec.boats.paddle
|
|||
|
|||
Drag devices
!Jones wrote: On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:11:25 -0400, in rec.boats.paddle Steve Cramer wrote: 1. Get some training. It's unclear if you are new kayakers or only a new tandem team, but you should learn to deal with wind and waves in a safe location that doesn't require Coasties. 2. Pay better attention to conditions 3. Don't go out as a single boat. Thank you for the lecture. snip Now, an unsolicited lectu If you don't wish to fight incessant flame wars, then refrain from giving out unsolicited lectures. While what you say is perfectly valid and nobody in their right mind would argue otherwise, it comes across as pedantic and patronizing. It would have helped to have included this tidbit in your original post if you didn't want a lecture. "It was a Coast Guard sponsored training session held with a lifeboat standing by". Anyone else have a vison of the Coast Guard being called for a rescue when they read the original post? I know I did. |
#7
posted to rec.boats.paddle
|
|||
|
|||
Drag devices
On 21 Jun 2006 15:41:32 -0700, in rec.boats.paddle
"Sees-koo-wee-hah-nay" wrote: It would have helped to have included this tidbit in your original post if you didn't want a lecture. I'm sorry. I regret the misunderstanding. Actually, I didn't think it was important because that wasn't the topic of my question at all; it was a one sentence preamble, not my life's details. I guess what I'm saying is that a lecture can make a point, but a trip through rinse cycle makes an *impression*! If you've never been there, then you won't understand until you have been.. And one more bit of advice, sir, short & sweet and I'll shut my yap. People will post "here" for several reasons; some are serious and some merely want to flame and spew. If you jump on new posters, then the serious ones will move on and all you'll be left with is the flaming and spewing. It's just a thought; *I* have no chips into RBP, so do as you please. Jones |
#8
posted to rec.boats.paddle
|
|||
|
|||
Drag devices
On 21 Jun 2006 07:41:02 -0700, in rec.boats.paddle "Oci-One Kanubi"
wrote: Forgive me for not answering your actual question, but (perhaps you might experiment with this suggestion in a strong wind under otherwise-controlled conditions): Actually, it's "bang on" my topic. I get the impression that the drag device isn't in common usage. The other issue that presented itself in the middle of it all was that my stoker lacked the upper body strength to pull herself into the boat. She's in good physical shape; however, handicaps make it doubtful that she ever *will* do the push-up. For this reason, we shall stay in calm water; however, we will need to develop a wet entry technique and practice it. I'm thinking of some kind of a stirrup where she could get her leg involved. Jones |
#9
posted to rec.boats.paddle
|
|||
|
|||
Drag devices
!Jones wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:11:25 -0400, in rec.boats.paddle Steve Cramer wrote: 1. Get some training. It's unclear if you are new kayakers or only a new tandem team, but you should learn to deal with wind and waves in a safe location that doesn't require Coasties. 2. Pay better attention to conditions 3. Don't go out as a single boat. Thank you for the lecture. Don't mention it. Comes with your Usenet subscription. No extra charge. 1. It was a Coast Guard sopnsored training session held with a lifeboat standing by. You might have mentioned that. Were you the designated crash test dummy? 2. The conditions were pretty generic to the area in which we live: 20 knot wind, 4' chop on a 9 second period. No fun, these, but, if you plan to paddle hereabouts, you'd better be able to deal with that. Indeed. Are you able to? If not, find some more sheltered areas until you are. 3. When you end up in the laundry, another kayak isn't much help, IMO. I had other boats all around me. Then why did the Coast Guard have to be involved. Oh, right, they were training and needed the practice. Will you always paddle in CG practice zones? If not, .... But, seriously, when you're flipped by a wave, are you *really* thinking about getting some training? Of course not, that's why you should be thinking of it NOW. Might have been nice to think about it beforehand, but that's water under the, um, kayak. Can one really learn how to handle a kayak in adverse conditions by reading some books on the subject? No. .... by getting advice from experts? No. We chose that spot and those conditions because we thought they'd be challenging; however, they would not life threatening. (Although, about my third time through the rinse cycle, I wasn't so sure about that.) Just asking, had you ever tried to do an unassisted tandem re-entry in 4' waves? In flat water? We were not able to right the boat and remount. Our spotters gave us time, then came in and fished us out. On reflection, I think that a drag device might have helped... *that* was the meat of the question. *I* couldn't orient the nose-high tandem boat and get back to my stoker. ( And I believe I said that one should avoid that situation.) Oci-1 has given an excellent set of advice on how to deal with your problem. Of course, he was sitting at a keyboard and had time to think about it. If you had had some previous rescue training, it might have been an automatic response on your part. Now, an unsolicited lectu If you don't wish to fight incessant flame wars, then refrain from giving out unsolicited lectures. While what you say is perfectly valid and nobody in their right mind would argue otherwise, it comes across as pedantic and patronizing. I'm sorry if you found my suggestions pedantic ( I am, after all, a college professor) and patronizing. Here's the point I was trying to make, and if you spend any time here you'll see it made repeatedly: more gear does not keep/get you out of trouble. Training leading to a stronger skills base does. I *love* to fight flame wars, personally; however, I'm not seeking one at the moment... I'm *still* sore from my Monday evening pasting in the chop. I would suggest that no training session in the world matches a good laundering for impressing one just how powerful the waves are!!! If you *love* flame wars, please find another ng. Telling people what you think about the behavior they voluntarily placed in front of the world is not flaming, it's what newsgroups do. It's nice to be impressed. But you don't learn much under those conditions. Paddle safe. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA |
#10
posted to rec.boats.paddle
|
|||
|
|||
Drag devices
!Jones wrote:
The other issue that presented itself in the middle of it all was that my stoker lacked the upper body strength to pull herself into the boat. She's in good physical shape; however, handicaps make it doubtful that she ever *will* do the push-up. For this reason, we shall stay in calm water; however, we will need to develop a wet entry technique and practice it. I'm thinking of some kind of a stirrup where she could get her leg involved. Read Shumann & Shriner's book Sea Kayak Rescue. They discuss several type of re-entry techniques, some involving slings. Also, I'll speculate that your partner's problem *may* have had to do with trying to pull herself up onto the boat (think getting out of a swimming pool) rather than keeping her body flat on the surface and swimming across the deck. You could also try putting her in first with the boat on its side and doing a paddlefloat roll with you pulling down on the other side. Lots of options. Try 'em and see what works for you. Steve -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Garmin 76/60CSX Anchor Drag Alarm Useless | Cruising | |||
Bow thruster drag | Cruising | |||
Viscous Drag Calculations For Ship Hull Geometry + other links | Cruising |