"Ernest Scribbler" wrote in message
et...
"Capt. JG" wrote
I'd second Richard's (cavelamb) suggestion. USSailing uses the Basic
Keelboat book. It's not bad, but has some basic errors/omissions in it.

I'm thinking about getting myself a copy of BK. What should I look out
for, error-wise?



The errors are minor. One omission that I don't understand... not including
how to tie a cleat hitch. The other is the calculation for anchor scope.
They say 7:1 which is correct, but then say the total in 10 feet of water is
70, but that doesn't include the distance from the water to the deck where
the anchor is located. I suppose on a small boat it doesn't matter, but for
larger boats it does matter, especially if you're anchoring with less than
7:1 thinking you need less. I can't think of anything else right off.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Capt. JG wrote:

The errors are minor. One omission that I don't understand... not
including how to tie a cleat hitch. The other is the calculation for
anchor scope. They say 7:1 which is correct ...

There is nothing _wrong_ with 7:1, but at the same time there is nothing I
know of that would lead one to label it "correct." Sometimes it's fine,
sometimes too little, sometimes too much.

I am assuming of course good, heavy, quality mooring gear and more than a
merely nominal amount of chain.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare

"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
. ..
Capt. JG wrote:

The errors are minor. One omission that I don't understand... not
including how to tie a cleat hitch. The other is the calculation for
anchor scope. They say 7:1 which is correct ...

There is nothing _wrong_ with 7:1, but at the same time there is nothing I
know of that would lead one to label it "correct." Sometimes it's fine,
sometimes too little, sometimes too much.

I am assuming of course good, heavy, quality mooring gear and more than a
merely nominal amount of chain.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare

Well, this is a newbie asking, so I don't like to get so complicated. The
version I have doesn't describe the ratio properly. There are lots of
considerations when anchoring. He asked about a book. I answered.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote
Well, this is a newbie asking, so I don't like to get so complicated.

Thanks, this newbie appreciates forebearance. What I find is that I might
learn a few things that I can personally use from a typical sailing book,
but the bulk of it tends to be stuff that I can't find much use for
considering I do all my cruising on an inland river. For example, knowing
how to maintain optimum catenary on my anchor rode is not nearly as useful
to me, in my circumstances, as knowing how to hug the bank as a coal barge
goes by.

Ernest Scribbler wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote
Well, this is a newbie asking, so I don't like to get so complicated.

Thanks, this newbie appreciates forebearance. What I find is that I might
learn a few things that I can personally use from a typical sailing book,
but the bulk of it tends to be stuff that I can't find much use for
considering I do all my cruising on an inland river. For example, knowing
how to maintain optimum catenary on my anchor rode is not nearly as useful
to me, in my circumstances, as knowing how to hug the bank as a coal barge
goes by.


I'm glad you understand that much of the advice will be overkill. People
here like to discuss how their boat is setup for world cruising. Being
prepared for one hurricane is not enough; you half to be prepared to
handle 3 in one week!

For instance, invoking the very concept the "catenary" is pedantic and
not relevant to practical anchoring. The problem is that once a chain
has completely assumed the catenary shape, it is virtually fully
extended and about to be broken out. The purpose of an all chain rode
or a kellet is to minimize the catenary and keep as much of the rode as
possible sitting on the bottom.

Likewise, the advise to have a duplicate of the primary anchor on hand
may be appropriate for the world cruiser who must be prepared for
anything, but is perhaps overkill for the "weekend warrior." Better
advice might be to size the primary anchor one size up from the store
recommendations, and have a second anchor that at least matches the
recommendations. (Most boaters only have what cruisers would consider a
"lunch hook.")

Some people will advise only using all-chain, but if you don't have a
windlass this could be a problem. And, on some bottoms chain can
actually prevent anchors anchors from setting. The only thing you, as a
beginner, can do, is find someone knowledgeable about anchoring your
type of boat in your area, and pick their brain. Even then, you should
take all advice with a grain of salt!

As for books, there have been a number of good recommendations.
Personally, I often advise Chapman's Piloting & Seamanship for
beginners. It covers many aspects of boating, and although the advice
is not very sophisticated, it is a sound foundation for the novice.

"jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Ernest Scribbler wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote
Well, this is a newbie asking, so I don't like to get so complicated.

Thanks, this newbie appreciates forebearance. What I find is that I might
learn a few things that I can personally use from a typical sailing book,
but the bulk of it tends to be stuff that I can't find much use for
considering I do all my cruising on an inland river. For example, knowing
how to maintain optimum catenary on my anchor rode is not nearly as
useful to me, in my circumstances, as knowing how to hug the bank as a
coal barge goes by.


I'm glad you understand that much of the advice will be overkill. People
here like to discuss how their boat is setup for world cruising. Being
prepared for one hurricane is not enough; you half to be prepared to
handle 3 in one week!

Or, even better yet, stay out of the way. :-)

For instance, invoking the very concept the "catenary" is pedantic and not
relevant to practical anchoring. The problem is that once a chain has
completely assumed the catenary shape, it is virtually fully extended and
about to be broken out. The purpose of an all chain rode or a kellet is
to minimize the catenary and keep as much of the rode as possible sitting
on the bottom.

Yep... nice explanation Jeff.

Likewise, the advise to have a duplicate of the primary anchor on hand may
be appropriate for the world cruiser who must be prepared for anything,
but is perhaps overkill for the "weekend warrior." Better advice might be
to size the primary anchor one size up from the store recommendations, and
have a second anchor that at least matches the recommendations. (Most
boaters only have what cruisers would consider a "lunch hook.")

I have a small Bruce and a small Danforth. While in Belize on a rental cat,
I found that their secondary anchor, also a Dan, set better than the much
heavier plow.

Some people will advise only using all-chain, but if you don't have a
windlass this could be a problem. And, on some bottoms chain can actually
prevent anchors anchors from setting. The only thing you, as a beginner,
can do, is find someone knowledgeable about anchoring your type of boat in
your area, and pick their brain. Even then, you should take all advice
with a grain of salt!

As for books, there have been a number of good recommendations.
Personally, I often advise Chapman's Piloting & Seamanship for beginners.
It covers many aspects of boating, and although the advice is not very
sophisticated, it is a sound foundation for the novice.

Yup.. you can get an older version for a very modest price... no need to
spend the big bucks on the latest.



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On 2007-09-08 14:00:14 -0400, jeff said:

For instance, invoking the very concept the "catenary" is pedantic and
not relevant to practical anchoring. The problem is that once a chain
has completely assumed the catenary shape, it is virtually fully
extended and about to be broken out. The purpose of an all chain rode
or a kellet is to minimize the catenary and keep as much of the rode as
possible sitting on the bottom.

Oops! You got catenary backwards: Catenary: "a curve formed by a wire,
rope, or chain hanging freely from two points that are on the same
horizontal level." (okay, the two points on an anchor aren't on the
same horizontal level, but you get the idea.)

When the chain *loses* it's catenary, it's fully extended and the
stress on the anchor is substantial.

Also, I find it most useful to have an anchor of a different type than
the primary for short-distance cruising.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Jere Lull wrote:
On 2007-09-08 14:00:14 -0400, jeff said:

For instance, invoking the very concept the "catenary" is pedantic and
not relevant to practical anchoring. The problem is that once a chain
has completely assumed the catenary shape, it is virtually fully
extended and about to be broken out. The purpose of an all chain rode
or a kellet is to minimize the catenary and keep as much of the rode
as possible sitting on the bottom.

Oops! You got catenary backwards:

Nope, I have it right.

Catenary: "a curve formed by a wire,
rope, or chain hanging freely from two points that are on the same
horizontal level." (okay, the two points on an anchor aren't on the same
horizontal level, but you get the idea.)

Actually, the curve of the anchor chain is a "half catenary;" you work
out the math assuming twice as much chain.


When the chain *loses* it's catenary, it's fully extended and the stress
on the anchor is substantial.

Nope. Its essentially physically impossible to lose the catenary that
way. The fully extended point is when the full chain is in the catenary
shape. Anything short of this and there will be chain sitting on the
bottom, and a shorter catenary to the the boat. In practice, most of
the the chain will be sitting on the bottom, and the only catenary will
really be near vertical. In this mode, any force on the vessel will be
absorbed in lifting the chain off the bottom - this is where the virtue
of an all chain rode (or a kellet) lies.

Getting back to the "almost fully extended" point. It is impossible to
make the chain literally "rod-straight" so the catenary can never quite
be lost, only reduced. Sometime people claim that in the process of
"reducing the catenary" there is significant shock absorbing, but this
is a fallacy. The problem is that there is little extension left at
this point as there is only a few inches left before the anchor is
pulled out.

My point is that the shock absorbing is not in the catenary, it is in
the chain lying on the bottom that will get lifted as the force
increases. Consideration of the catenary does nothing for the
understanding of this phenomenon - you might just as well think of the
chain as a straight line form the point where it departs from the bottom
to where it gets to the bow.


Also, I find it most useful to have an anchor of a different type than
the primary for short-distance cruising.

I certainly agree with that - I'm always amazed when I see two CQR's on
the bow of a cruising boat. FWIW, I use a 35# Delta with 50 feet of
chain as a primary, and a Fortress FX-23 with 12 feet of chain as a
secondary. A Danforth and spare rode is in a locker; if I cruise
extensively I carry a large Fortress broken down.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:18:18 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Ernest Scribbler" wrote in message
news:U6qdnSTsEfAGAXzbnZ2dnUVZ_sSlnZ2d@wvfibernet .net...
"Capt. JG" wrote
I'd second Richard's (cavelamb) suggestion. USSailing uses the Basic
Keelboat book. It's not bad, but has some basic errors/omissions in it.

I'm thinking about getting myself a copy of BK. What should I look out
for, error-wise?



The errors are minor. One omission that I don't understand... not
including
how to tie a cleat hitch. The other is the calculation for anchor scope.
They say 7:1 which is correct, but then say the total in 10 feet of water
is
70, but that doesn't include the distance from the water to the deck where
the anchor is located. I suppose on a small boat it doesn't matter, but
for
larger boats it does matter, especially if you're anchoring with less than
7:1 thinking you need less. I can't think of anything else right off.

Most texts include the freeboard as part of the calculation, but never
mention
the importance of calculating those figures based on high tide. That's
even more
important in many areas, where the tide swing may be 6, 8 or even more
feet. If
you just go by the texts, you might think you can determine how much rode
to let
out based on what your depth sounder says at the time of deployment. That
could
be a fatal miscalculation. Since these books and classes are designed for
newbies, that needs to be stated emphatically. It usually isn't.

There are many other variables as well. Use of a kellet can reduce the
scope
needed. Weather conditions, bottom type, and other considerations are also
very
important. I think the 7:1 rule is truly just a very rough baseline to
start
from. It's a minimum requirement. One rule that is hard to exceed: If you
have
enough clear swing room, you probably can't have too much scope.

Oh yeah... always have at least one extra complete anchor and rode in case
you
lose your primary. It should be as capable as the primary setup in all
regards.
If your properly sized primary is a 25 pound bruce, that's what your spare
should be. **** happens.




Sure thing... all of that. It just wasn't the question. :-)


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 21:49:50 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:18:18 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Ernest Scribbler" wrote in message
news:U6qdnSTsEfAGAXzbnZ2dnUVZ_sSlnZ2d@wvfibern et.net...
"Capt. JG" wrote
I'd second Richard's (cavelamb) suggestion. USSailing uses the Basic
Keelboat book. It's not bad, but has some basic errors/omissions in
it.

I'm thinking about getting myself a copy of BK. What should I look out
for, error-wise?



The errors are minor. One omission that I don't understand... not
including
how to tie a cleat hitch. The other is the calculation for anchor scope.
They say 7:1 which is correct, but then say the total in 10 feet of
water
is
70, but that doesn't include the distance from the water to the deck
where
the anchor is located. I suppose on a small boat it doesn't matter, but
for
larger boats it does matter, especially if you're anchoring with less
than
7:1 thinking you need less. I can't think of anything else right off.

Most texts include the freeboard as part of the calculation, but never
mention
the importance of calculating those figures based on high tide. That's
even more
important in many areas, where the tide swing may be 6, 8 or even more
feet. If
you just go by the texts, you might think you can determine how much
rode
to let
out based on what your depth sounder says at the time of deployment.
That
could
be a fatal miscalculation. Since these books and classes are designed
for
newbies, that needs to be stated emphatically. It usually isn't.

There are many other variables as well. Use of a kellet can reduce the
scope
needed. Weather conditions, bottom type, and other considerations are
also
very
important. I think the 7:1 rule is truly just a very rough baseline to
start
from. It's a minimum requirement. One rule that is hard to exceed: If
you
have
enough clear swing room, you probably can't have too much scope.

Oh yeah... always have at least one extra complete anchor and rode in
case
you
lose your primary. It should be as capable as the primary setup in all
regards.
If your properly sized primary is a 25 pound bruce, that's what your
spare
should be. **** happens.




Sure thing... all of that. It just wasn't the question. :-)

I was responding to the mention of how to calculate scope, and the
incompleteness on that subject in the book.

I know. However, I don't think it would be appropriate to go into a lot of
stuff in a book such as that, which is really designed to teach the
basics... e.g., the use of kellets. Much of this, even if discussed goes in
one ear and out the other for beginners.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com