"Jeff" wrote in message
...
* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 8/11/2007 8:23 PM:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Rule 5 Lookout

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a PROPER LOOKOUT BY SIGHT
AND
HEARING AS WELL AS BY ALL AVAILABLE MEANS appropriate in the
prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full
appraisal
of the situation and of the risk of collision.

Rule 5
This is a basic Rule, the violation of which is so often the cause
of
small-craft accidents - collisions with other boats or stationary
objects. On smaller vessels, the "lookout" is nominally the
helmsman,
and this is acceptable if he is aware of his responsibility and
performs his duties. He must be able to hear as well as see
potential
dangers. If in doubt, a skipper should post an additional person
with
the sole duties of lookout; this is particularly necessary in
situations of reduced visibility. It is even possible that two
lookouts will be necessary - one forward and one aft. Should a
collision occur, failure to have a proper lookout would be strongly
held against you in court.

This is also the Rule that is obviously violated by all
single-handing
skippers on long voyages, or even on voyages of more than a few
hours.
Note that the Rule states that a lookout is required "at all
times" -
this includes when a vessel is at anchor."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sitting at the nav station typing 500 word posts and looking at a
RADAR screen every 15 min violates COLREG RULE 5. Get out of the
office and sail your boat!
Bob


One correction, Bob, but don't feel badly because you're not the only
one confused by it. Jeff, who posts here regularly, also
misunderstands this rule but he's otherwise got them down pat.

Rule 5 comes under Part B, "Steering and Sailing Rules" meaning rules
for vessels steering and sailing, in other words vessels underway.
Underway vessels do not include anchored vessels which, unless
they're dragging, they're not underway nor are they steering or
sailing.

Nope, that's not the way the courts read it. And, although its not
discussed much here, captains are not only responsible for knowing the
rules as stated in the ColRegs, they are responsible for understanding
how the courts have interpreted them. This is an aspect where
admiralty law differs from "land based" law. There is a huge amount
of information left out of the ColRegs; one must look to the courts
for a full understanding of the rules. And of course, one must be
familiar with the "ordinary practice of seamen," which certainly
leaves you out.

There have been a number of cases where anchored vessels have been
found at fault for not keeping a lookout. However, they generally
involve situations where a vessel anchored in or too close to a
channel.

And because their lawyers sucked. Probably as stupid as Dave. Rule 5 is
clearly listed under Steering and Sailing Rules. Therefore, Rule 5
applies only to vessels engaged in steering and sailing. There is no way
a vessel anchored is steering or sailing. What kind of a knucklehead
does a judge have to be to misinterpret something this clear?

Appeal the damned thing to the SCOTUS. I would. I hate it when judges
legislate from the bench in contradiction of written existing laws which
even a two-year-old could understand.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Aug 11, 6:18 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
Rule 5 comes under Part B, "Steering and Sailing Rules" meaning rules
for vessels steering and sailing, in other words vessels underway.
Underway vessels do not include anchored vessels which, unless
they're dragging, they're not underway nor are they steering or
sailing.



I can not agree with you on this one Wilbur. tsmweb Tom has it right.
Please read the folloing rule. My take is that nobody can hide behind
a rule as defense against poor seamanship:

"...Rule 2 Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner,
master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply
with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be
required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special
circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be
had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special
circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved,
which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid
immediate danger.

Rule 2
This is often referred to unofficially as the "Rule of Good
Seamanship" or the "General Prudential Rule." This Rule first states
that all the Rules must be complied with, and the customary practices
of good seamanship must be followed. But it then goes on to recognize
that there may be "special circumstances." Its intention is to apply
common sense to the interpretation and application of the Rules, and
to prevent any perversion of the Rules to avoid the consequences of
their misconstruction or misapplication. It recognizes that a
departure from the strict language of the Rules may be required to
avoid immediate danger - no vessel has the right of way through
another vessel! There may be special situations where a departure from
the Rules is not only desirable, but is required. Should a collision
result, strict literal compliance with the Rules may not be a
defense...."

not always by-the-book Bob

"Bob" wrote
no vessel has the right of way through another vessel!

That's the whole COLREGS. The rest is commentary. (I am, in fact, standing
on one foot.)

If you really want to understand these rules, get a copy of "Farwell's
Rules of the Nautical Road". It has chapters on each rule, and
discusses all the court cases and how they've interpreted each. As far
as a "proper look-out" probably all of us violate that rule every time
we go out. Here's why:

Pg. 141 - Note 45. "The Supreme Court long ago established that the
lookout
must be exclusively employed in the lookout duties. (Supreme Court
Case
cited here).
Note 46. (court case cited here)..."a proper lookout must be someone
other
than the deck officer or helmsman"... (another court case cited)...
"required lookout can have no other duties that detract from the
keeping of
a proper lookout:.

That being said, there appears
to be a move underway to revisit the "one man bridge organization" or
OMBO.

Another comment out of Farwell's:
__________________
The term look-out implies watching and listening so that there is
awareness
of what is happening around the vessel. The emphasis is on performing
the
action, not on the person.

Senate Report 96-979 which accompanies Rule 5, permits the helmsman to
serve
as lookout:

On vessels where there is an unobstructed all-round view provided at
the
steering station, as on certain pleasure craft, fishing boats, and
towing
vessels, or where there is no impairment of night vision or other
impediment
to keeping a proper lookout, the watch officer or helmsman may safely
serve
as the lookout. However, it is expected that this practice will only
be
followed after the situation has been carefully assessed on each
occasion,
and it has been clearly established that it is prudent to do so. Full
account shall be taken of all relevant factors, including but not
limited to
the state of the weather, conditions of visibility, traffic density,
and
proximity of navigational hazards. It is not the intent of these rules
to
require additional personnel forward, if none is required to enhance
safety.

S. Rep. No. 979, 96 th Cong., 2d Sess. 7-8 (1980).
___________________________________________

The OMBO is still highly contested, and the courts still much prefer
a
dedicated lookout. Of course all this is moot unless you have a
collision
and end up in court, in which case the first thing they're going to
look at
is if you and the other boat had "proper look-outs".

"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 11, 6:18 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
Rule 5 comes under Part B, "Steering and Sailing Rules" meaning
rules
for vessels steering and sailing, in other words vessels underway.
Underway vessels do not include anchored vessels which, unless
they're dragging, they're not underway nor are they steering or
sailing.



I can not agree with you on this one Wilbur. tsmweb Tom has it right.
Please read the folloing rule. My take is that nobody can hide behind
a rule as defense against poor seamanship:

"...Rule 2 Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner,
master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply
with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be
required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special
circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be
had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special
circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved,
which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid
immediate danger.

Rule 2
This is often referred to unofficially as the "Rule of Good
Seamanship" or the "General Prudential Rule." This Rule first states
that all the Rules must be complied with, and the customary practices
of good seamanship must be followed. But it then goes on to recognize
that there may be "special circumstances." Its intention is to apply
common sense to the interpretation and application of the Rules, and
to prevent any perversion of the Rules to avoid the consequences of
their misconstruction or misapplication. It recognizes that a
departure from the strict language of the Rules may be required to
avoid immediate danger - no vessel has the right of way through
another vessel! There may be special situations where a departure from
the Rules is not only desirable, but is required. Should a collision
result, strict literal compliance with the Rules may not be a
defense...."

not always by-the-book Bob



If I used your and Jeff's flawed logic it would follow that your boat is
your prison. If you had to keep a lookout "at all times" it would mean
when your boat was on the hard getting the bottom painted. It would mean
when your boat was sitting on the trailer. It would mean when your boat
was in your back yard. It would mean when your boat was on a tractor
trailer rig being hauled across country. It would mean when your boat
was tied up in the slip. You could never leave your boat because the
rule says "at all times."

See how stupid it gets? Nope, in spite of what you and Jeff try to
claim, Rule 5 appears only under the Steering and Sailing rules. Hence
it only applies when steering and sailing. Anchored boats, boats tied up
at a dock, boats aground, are not steering and sailing. Don't try to
obfuscate by bring up a bunch of other rules. They don't apply in a
discussion of what Rule 5 says.

Wilbur Hubbard

Don't be a total idiot all the time, Willy..... there's a big difference
between most of what you say and a boat at anchor. Try to remember Rule
2 and use some common sense for a change



]
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:


If I used your and Jeff's flawed logic it would follow that your boat
is your prison. If you had to keep a lookout "at all times" it would
mean when your boat was on the hard getting the bottom painted. It
would mean when your boat was sitting on the trailer. It would mean
when your boat was in your back yard. It would mean when your boat was
on a tractor trailer rig being hauled across country. It would mean
when your boat was tied up in the slip. You could never leave your
boat because the rule says "at all times."

See how stupid it gets? Nope, in spite of what you and Jeff try to
claim, Rule 5 appears only under the Steering and Sailing rules. Hence
it only applies when steering and sailing. Anchored boats, boats tied
up at a dock, boats aground, are not steering and sailing. Don't try
to obfuscate by bring up a bunch of other rules. They don't apply in a
discussion of what Rule 5 says.

Wilbur Hubbard

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70...

Don't be a total idiot all the time, Willy..... there's a big
difference
between most of what you say and a boat at anchor. Try to remember
Rule
2 and use some common sense for a change


Nothing wrong with a rule about applying common sense and caution when
navigating and being on notice that special circumstances may arise
where good judgment might be called for when no specific rule applies
but this has nothing to do with maintaining a lookout "at all times."

So, that's the crux of the matter. Anchoring does, indeed, come under
the auspices of navigation. When you're anchored you can be said to be
"in navigation."

But, anchoring is NOT considered steering or sailing. Since a lookout is
required at all times when steering and sailing (that's the section rule
5's under - not navigating), it follows rule 5 applies at all times
while steering and sailing. There's simply no way anchored boats can be
said to be steering or sailing. Can't you see the difference?

Wilbur Hubbard





"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:


If I used your and Jeff's flawed logic it would follow that your boat
is your prison. If you had to keep a lookout "at all times" it would
mean when your boat was on the hard getting the bottom painted. It
would mean when your boat was sitting on the trailer. It would mean
when your boat was in your back yard. It would mean when your boat
was
on a tractor trailer rig being hauled across country. It would mean
when your boat was tied up in the slip. You could never leave your
boat because the rule says "at all times."

See how stupid it gets? Nope, in spite of what you and Jeff try to
claim, Rule 5 appears only under the Steering and Sailing rules.
Hence
it only applies when steering and sailing. Anchored boats, boats tied
up at a dock, boats aground, are not steering and sailing. Don't try
to obfuscate by bring up a bunch of other rules. They don't apply in
a
discussion of what Rule 5 says.

Wilbur Hubbard

Farwell's is out of date. I have an up-to-date discussion including
specific court cases on my web page. This topic is specifically
discussed.

http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/commun...&groupid=45696

See "Rules for the Rest of Us"


John...