"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70...


Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5,
then
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL times"
Gripes, it's so easy to blow holes in your comments.......


The discussion is about Rule 5. (keeping a lookout)

Rule 5 appears under the heading of Steering and Sailing Rules. That
means Rule 5 applies when steering and sailing. It does not mean it
applies when anchored, when tied to a dock or pier, when aground, when
the boat's on the hard, when the boat's sitting in your back yard. When
the boat's hauled out for a bottom paint job. Etc.

I'm arguing that anchored vessels don't require a lookout at all times
because they aren't sailing or steering. Since "at all times" appears in
a rule under the heading of Steering and Sailing it follows that a
lookout must be posted at all times while steering or sailing. Both
steering and sailing happen only when a vessel is underway. An anchored
vessel is NOT underway.

Now, if you're going to argue a point, please stick to the point. Don't
try changing the subject by presenting a bunch or other rules that
aren't germaine to the discussion at hand. Keep it simple, stupid.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Aug 11, 3:43 pm, otnmbrd wrote:
" wrote groups.com:
....

OTNM, you raise good points, and I've made some sweeping statements
and moved freely between Skip's particular case and cases in general.
Also, I get the feeling we may be talking about different conditions.
My experience has largely been in international waters far offshore
and may not really apply to more typical near coastal conditions.
Anyway, with that in mind:

[] As nearly as I can make out fishing vessels
never keep any watch at all, but even commercial carriers are pretty
bad about watch keeping at sea.

Based on what first hand knowledge?

I read the incident reports in the backs of the trade mags. I also
have friends in the marine trades and merchant marine and friends who
make their living as fisheries observers and friends who are serious
small boat voyagers. They all tell tales. I've also worked for a US
shipping company, but in IT and all I can attest to from that is that
some ship's officers in US domestic trade spend a lot of time reading
and creating reports while at sea. For the last year or so I've been
working out of my pilot house and have had a VHF monitoring most of
bridge to bridge traffic in the Honolulu area and I'd guess that as
much as a third of all attempts to get passing agreements fail because
one party isn't keeping watch (the navy is particularly inept at
this). But that's all second hand. My first hand knowledge is in
small boats so I can't report on what is actually happening on the
bridges except when we pass close enough to see into them, but I can
report on what seems to be happening from the small boat operator's
point of view. I've spent a good deal of time offshore doing delivery
work, racing and six years of full time long distance cruising that
included three circuits of the pacific and it has become my custom to
hail most contacts on the VHF when offshore. My feeling from this
unscientific survey is that even of those vessels professional enough
to keep a radio watch few if any keep a continuous and careful visual
and radar watch when off soundings.
....
Leaving the RADAR on 24 miles is a
mistake.

Yes and no..... for ships, one set on 24, one on 12 with occasional
shifts down is great.... offshore for small boats, leave it on 12 ( you
should still see any closer targets if you know how to use the radar)
with occasional shifts down in reduced vis.

I agree that 12 is the best compromise for most small boats and small
radars offshore, but you should change scales regularly. It has been
years since I took my radar training and technology has improved but I
recall that continuous long range scanning was considered very bad
form (maybe even illegal in the context of watch keeping). Even if
the new digital sets have made this better it is still going to be
easier to see small, close targets on the closer scales at the very
least because they will be bigger blobs on the ppi.

....
[] Most targets will not show at 24 miles and closer targets
may be lost in the clutter. Also intermittent targets will only be
evident if you watch the ppi closely for several scans.

Again, yes and no.... depends on your system....etc.
....
[] In clear weather I've found that we almost
always make visual contact on small targets before we see them on
RADAR.

G Again, depends on your system

True. The context I was thinking of when I wrote those comments was
offshore using a small, unstabilized, analogue radar of the type
typically fitted to yachts.

-- Tom.

On Aug 11, 6:57 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:16:59 -0700, "

wrote:
....
[we] make visual contact on small targets before we see them on
RADAR.

If so, I'd argue that you need a better radar. ...

Yeah, there is better radar out there. For some reason I was thinking
about offshore work rather than coastal. Even with our nasty 4kw
Raymarine mono lcd set we can see tiny targets in glassy conditions.
Given a couple meters of swell little boats get lost in the clutter.
However, in good vis, particularly at night, we can see them or their
lights with our eyes when they are weak and intermittent targets on
the radar.

-- Tom.

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
"otnmbrd" wrote in message
. 3.70...

Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5,
the n
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL times"
Gripes, it's so easy to blow holes in your comments.......

The discussion is about Rule 5. (keeping a lookout)

Rule 5 appears under the heading of Steering and Sailing Rules. That
means Rule 5 applies when steering and sailing. It does not mean it
applies when anchored, when tied to a dock or pier, when aground, when
the boat's on the hard, when the boat's sitting in your back yard. When
the boat's hauled out for a bottom paint job. Etc.

I'm arguing that anchored vessels don't require a lookout at all times
because they aren't sailing or steering. Since "at all times" appears in
a rule under the heading of Steering and Sailing it follows that a
lookout must be posted at all times while steering or sailing. Both
steering and sailing happen only when a vessel is underway. An anchored
vessel is NOT underway.

This is relevant only when there is an accident where blame has to be
affixed. Because really - even if you have someone in the cockpit or
beside the helm at all times whose sole duty is to be a lookout, no
one human is going to be 100% alert at all times. No one is going to
bother to write you up unless you do something that brings you to
their attention. So you can break Rule 5 or any other rule as much as
you like, as long as you don't screw up and get caught. The rules are
there to make it easier not to screw up. If you have an accident, the
trick is not to put your foot in your mouth right away.

I think an anchored boat displaying the appropriate lights and/or day
shapes is probably not required to keep a lookout. Most of the cases
I've heard of where the anchored boat was assigned some of the blame
has been when they did not have appropriate anchor lights.

There are also required anchor watches of course, but I don't think
these come in the same category.

Now I do not think that - even offshore where Skip was (and I have
been there) that every 15 minutes is an appropriate amount of time to
keep watch. In our case, we don't do offshore more than 36 hours
(and we only do that much if something holds us up somewhere) because
I know that Bob won't sleep off watch and so I refuse to go. We can
just about manage that length of time, because I WILL sleep even if he
won't. He keeps threatening to go without me, but so far hasn't.

There was a local case here where a couple who had done several
circumnavigations were coming home to sell their boat and move back
ashore. They were in the Chesapeake sailing at night. (First
mistake). The man was on watch, and he saw something on the radar
that he didn't understand. He went below for some reason - to get
coffee or look at a chart - accounts differ. (Second mistake). The
boat ran between a tug and tow. Sank in less than 10 minutes and they
got into the dinghy in just what they were wearing. They were rescued
right away - the Calvert Co (which was their nearest shore) rescue
people picked them up VERY quickly considering that this was about 2
am and very dark - in less than 1/2 hour IIRC. But they lost
everything they owned.

Skip was going from Charleston to Beaufort. We've done the same
except we went in the Cape Fear River. If I were doing it today, I
would follow the route he did except I'd go in to Morehead City
because I have a feeling that the NC ICW has shoaled in a lot of
places. Beaufort and Charleston (and Cape Fear and Masonboro) are all
good inlets, and I've even gone out Little River. It's a good sail,
and there's not a LOT of traffic out there - not like off the coast of
FL from Miami to Ft. Pierce, where you have little unlighted fishing
boats and gambling boats and freighters etc.

The confusion factor (not understanding what you see) is the primary
problem. Initially, I thought that the star rising in the east was a
boat. (blush). And it also took me a long to figure out that the
lights that were rising from the shore were not a plane (and they
weren't stars because they were west of me) but were flares.

And whoever said that you had to learn to read the radar was right.
Bob works on that constantly.

On Aug 12, 2:06 pm, Rosalie B. wrote:

This is relevant only when there is an accident where blame has to be
affixed. Because really - even if you have someone in the cockpit or
beside the helm at all times whose sole duty is to be a lookout, no
one human is going to be 100% alert at all times.

Espeically when they dont know the responibilities of Lookout, dont
know the rules, and dont care to find out.


No one is going to
bother to write you up unless you do something that brings you to
their attention.

No it is to prevnet crashes and dead bodies floating in the water.

So you can break Rule 5 or any other rule as much as
you like, as long as you don't screw up....

Granny, what can I say............ you said it yourself for all to
see. Im not going to commen on your statment.

Bob

Bob wrote:

On Aug 12, 2:06 pm, Rosalie B. wrote:

This is relevant only when there is an accident where blame has to be
affixed. Because really - even if you have someone in the cockpit or
beside the helm at all times whose sole duty is to be a lookout, no
one human is going to be 100% alert at all times.

Espeically when they dont know the responibilities of Lookout, dont
know the rules, and dont care to find out.


No one is going to
bother to write you up unless you do something that brings you to
their attention.

No it is to prevnet crashes and dead bodies floating in the water.

So you can break Rule 5 or any other rule as much as
you like, as long as you don't screw up....

Granny, what can I say............ you said it yourself for all to
see. Im not going to commen on your statment.

Bob

Well I said YOU - not ME

Don't be a total idiot all the time, Willy..... there's a big difference
between most of what you say and a boat at anchor. Try to remember Rule
2 and use some common sense for a change



]
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:


If I used your and Jeff's flawed logic it would follow that your boat
is your prison. If you had to keep a lookout "at all times" it would
mean when your boat was on the hard getting the bottom painted. It
would mean when your boat was sitting on the trailer. It would mean
when your boat was in your back yard. It would mean when your boat was
on a tractor trailer rig being hauled across country. It would mean
when your boat was tied up in the slip. You could never leave your
boat because the rule says "at all times."

See how stupid it gets? Nope, in spite of what you and Jeff try to
claim, Rule 5 appears only under the Steering and Sailing rules. Hence
it only applies when steering and sailing. Anchored boats, boats tied
up at a dock, boats aground, are not steering and sailing. Don't try
to obfuscate by bring up a bunch of other rules. They don't apply in a
discussion of what Rule 5 says.

Wilbur Hubbard

All so typical...... Most anchored vessels are manned (exceptions
noted)....keep a lookout


"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in news:46bf500c
:


"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70...


Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5,
then
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL times"
Gripes, it's so easy to blow holes in your comments.......


The discussion is about Rule 5. (keeping a lookout)

Rule 5 appears under the heading of Steering and Sailing Rules. That
means Rule 5 applies when steering and sailing. It does not mean it
applies when anchored, when tied to a dock or pier, when aground, when
the boat's on the hard, when the boat's sitting in your back yard. When
the boat's hauled out for a bottom paint job. Etc.

I'm arguing that anchored vessels don't require a lookout at all times
because they aren't sailing or steering. Since "at all times" appears
in
a rule under the heading of Steering and Sailing it follows that a
lookout must be posted at all times while steering or sailing. Both
steering and sailing happen only when a vessel is underway. An anchored
vessel is NOT underway.

Now, if you're going to argue a point, please stick to the point. Don't
try changing the subject by presenting a bunch or other rules that
aren't germaine to the discussion at hand. Keep it simple, stupid.

Wilbur Hubbard

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70...

Don't be a total idiot all the time, Willy..... there's a big
difference
between most of what you say and a boat at anchor. Try to remember
Rule
2 and use some common sense for a change


Nothing wrong with a rule about applying common sense and caution when
navigating and being on notice that special circumstances may arise
where good judgment might be called for when no specific rule applies
but this has nothing to do with maintaining a lookout "at all times."

So, that's the crux of the matter. Anchoring does, indeed, come under
the auspices of navigation. When you're anchored you can be said to be
"in navigation."

But, anchoring is NOT considered steering or sailing. Since a lookout is
required at all times when steering and sailing (that's the section rule
5's under - not navigating), it follows rule 5 applies at all times
while steering and sailing. There's simply no way anchored boats can be
said to be steering or sailing. Can't you see the difference?

Wilbur Hubbard





"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:


If I used your and Jeff's flawed logic it would follow that your boat
is your prison. If you had to keep a lookout "at all times" it would
mean when your boat was on the hard getting the bottom painted. It
would mean when your boat was sitting on the trailer. It would mean
when your boat was in your back yard. It would mean when your boat
was
on a tractor trailer rig being hauled across country. It would mean
when your boat was tied up in the slip. You could never leave your
boat because the rule says "at all times."

See how stupid it gets? Nope, in spite of what you and Jeff try to
claim, Rule 5 appears only under the Steering and Sailing rules.
Hence
it only applies when steering and sailing. Anchored boats, boats tied
up at a dock, boats aground, are not steering and sailing. Don't try
to obfuscate by bring up a bunch of other rules. They don't apply in
a
discussion of what Rule 5 says.

Wilbur Hubbard

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70...
All so typical...... Most anchored vessels are manned (exceptions
noted)....keep a lookout

It's just not possible for a single crewman on a small cruising yacht to
keep a lookout at all times when anchored. This would mean he can never
leave the boat. This would mean he could never sleep. This would mean he
could never use the head, cook a meal, change filters on the motor, etc.
There are many legitimate reasons for anchoring. Among these reasons are
the fact that you realize you are too tired to stay awake while you're
steering and sailing so you stop steering and sailing and drop the
anchor so you can get some much needed rest. Your too broad application
of rule 5 would force sailors to carry on until they fell asleep at the
wheel and caused a collision. See how, if extended logically, a case
cannot be made for what you are saying?

The only way you can be expected to be in compliance with Rule 5 is if
it's applied like it's written. You must keep a lookout at all times
"when steering and sailing."

When you're anchored you are NOT "steering and sailing." Just like
you're not steering and sailing when you're made fast to the pier.
NOBODY tries to say you must keep a lookout at all times when at the
dock. A few people are saying you must keep a lookout at all times when
anchored. They are WRONG! What's so hard to understand about that?

Wilbur Hubbard




"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
news:46bf500c
:


"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70...


Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5,
then
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL
times"
Gripes, it's so easy to blow holes in your comments.......


The discussion is about Rule 5. (keeping a lookout)

Rule 5 appears under the heading of Steering and Sailing Rules. That
means Rule 5 applies when steering and sailing. It does not mean it
applies when anchored, when tied to a dock or pier, when aground,
when
the boat's on the hard, when the boat's sitting in your back yard.
When
the boat's hauled out for a bottom paint job. Etc.

I'm arguing that anchored vessels don't require a lookout at all
times
because they aren't sailing or steering. Since "at all times" appears
in
a rule under the heading of Steering and Sailing it follows that a
lookout must be posted at all times while steering or sailing. Both
steering and sailing happen only when a vessel is underway. An
anchored
vessel is NOT underway.

Now, if you're going to argue a point, please stick to the point.
Don't
try changing the subject by presenting a bunch or other rules that
aren't germaine to the discussion at hand. Keep it simple, stupid.

Wilbur Hubbard