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#91
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Radar vs GPS/Sounder
This is more bull**** Jeff. There is nothing wrong with your
magnetron. The "rings" that you see associated with a strong target are the result of side lobes on your antenna. If it were the magnetron "double pulsing" you would see multiple targets at the same azimuth as the real target. They would be in front of or behind the real target. Unless of course you had a bad magnetron and you were right on top of a large target then you could get rings and multiple targets together. The radar antenna has a narrow beam that sweeps around in azimuth. The antenna azimuth is synchronized with the sweep on your display so that the sweep on your display always points in the same direction as your antenna. To picture clearer what is happening, think about what it would be like if there were no motor turning the antenna. You had to rotate it by hand. As you point the antenna at a target the transmitter is transmitting pulses many times per second. Between each of those pulses your receiver listens for an echo of those pulses being reflected from a target. Depending on how far away the target is determines how long it takes for the echo to return to the receiver. The sweep on your scope is traveling out toward the edge of your display at the same rate that it takes to send out the radar pulse and get it back. This also happens many times per second. Exactly in sync with the radar pulse being transmitted. The center of the screen is at the time the radar pulse leaves the radar transmitter. Time zero = zero miles. As an echo is received the sweep gets intensified at that time. With out the antenna rotating you would see a bright spot at the range on the sweep line on your screen. Now as you manually slowly rotate your antenna in one direction you will continue to see the bright spot at the same range but the sweep will be at a slightly different azimuth on your display. The spot will now get stretched out and appear to be forming a small line or arc still at the same range. This arc will be visible as long as the target is within the beam width of your antenna. The line or arc appears on the screen due to the digital circuitry holding or remembering the signal. On older radar's without digital storage this holding of the arc was dependent on the type of phosphorus used in the display tube. It would slowly fade. You tv tube works much in the same way but fades much faster. Anyway, as you continue to manually rotate your antenna, you will reach an azimuth where the beam width of the antenna is no longer illuminating the target. The dot on your display sweep will not be seen any more. But the small arc will still be visible because of the storage. It will hold that image or display until the next time the sweep has made a full 360 degree rotation. Then it will erase that information and display the new information if there is any to display. As you continue to rotate the antenna, if one of the side or rear lobes are strong enough you will again see the dot on the sweep appear at the same range as you did earlier. But now your antenna may be pointed 10 or 20 degrees away from the target and your display, being in sync with your antenna will also be 10 or 20 degrees off the target. So the dot will look like there is another target at the same range but a different azimuth to the original target. As you continue to turn the antenna it will form an arc on the screen as long as that side lobe is strong enough to give a return signal. It is not uncommon to be near a large ship and see what looks like the same ship 180 degrees from the original. Sometimes when the target is close and very large you can pick it up in 360 degrees on your radar. Turning down your gain will get rid of the unwanted responses as your main lobe is always stronger than the side lobe signals. But be careful if you turn down the gain for this purpose as it will also eliminate many of the weaker wanted targets too. Regards Gary On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:24:35 -0500, "Jeff Morris" wrote: I hope its not age in my case - my radar is less than 4 years old and I believe I had this effect from the beginning. "Me" wrote in message ... In article , Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote: I do see what you describe occasionally with a Raytheon SR 70. I never have seen the other phenomenon, and I never saw this one with the previous Furuno 1720. I don't think it indicates an active radar on the target, because I have had it happen with big rocks. It usually goes away pretty soon. Hmmm, sounds like maybe your Magnitron is getting old. Been know to cause mutiple echo's from a single boat, or rock. If they are infront of and behind the real target, it is reflections. If it is right or left, could be what is known as Multiple Pulsing. Me |
#92
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Radar vs GPS/Sounder
I've seen this problem on 3cm, 10cm; big sets, small sets; cheap sets,
expensive sets; new sets,old sets .... I still say, it's generally a matter of adjusting for the range scale you're using and, generally you'll get rid of it ....either that, or the target will move out of range G |
#93
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Radar vs GPS/Sounder
I've seen this problem on 3cm, 10cm; big sets, small sets; cheap sets,
expensive sets; new sets,old sets .... I still say, it's generally a matter of adjusting for the range scale you're using and, generally you'll get rid of it ....either that, or the target will move out of range G |
#94
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Radar vs GPS/Sounder
On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:44:00 GMT, Bruce in Alaska
wrote: In article , Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote: I do see what you describe occasionally with a Raytheon SR 70. I never have seen the other phenomenon, and I never saw this one with the previous Furuno 1720. I don't think it indicates an active radar on the target, because I have had it happen with big rocks. It usually goes away pretty soon. What this seems to be is Magnitron Double-Pulsing. This is where, as the Magnitron ages, and the Modulator Parts age, they get into a multiple pulse state, and produce a very ragged and multiple peaked pulse, that shows up as multiple echos in near vacinity of a REAL Target. The fix for this is, to replace the Magnitron, and the Pulse Forming Capacitors in the modulator. Not usually found in Noncommercial Marine Service, because these units typically die of mechanical age, long before the electronics age out. I doubt that. This is the new replacement for an ancient Furuno that never did it. Well se what "Me" has to say on the subject. Bruce in alaska Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a "That idiot Leibniz, who wants to teach me about the infinitesimally small! Has he therefore forgotten that I am the wife of Frederick I? How can he imagine that I am unacquainted with my own husband?" |
#95
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Radar vs GPS/Sounder
On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:44:00 GMT, Bruce in Alaska
wrote: In article , Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote: I do see what you describe occasionally with a Raytheon SR 70. I never have seen the other phenomenon, and I never saw this one with the previous Furuno 1720. I don't think it indicates an active radar on the target, because I have had it happen with big rocks. It usually goes away pretty soon. What this seems to be is Magnitron Double-Pulsing. This is where, as the Magnitron ages, and the Modulator Parts age, they get into a multiple pulse state, and produce a very ragged and multiple peaked pulse, that shows up as multiple echos in near vacinity of a REAL Target. The fix for this is, to replace the Magnitron, and the Pulse Forming Capacitors in the modulator. Not usually found in Noncommercial Marine Service, because these units typically die of mechanical age, long before the electronics age out. I doubt that. This is the new replacement for an ancient Furuno that never did it. Well se what "Me" has to say on the subject. Bruce in alaska Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a "That idiot Leibniz, who wants to teach me about the infinitesimally small! Has he therefore forgotten that I am the wife of Frederick I? How can he imagine that I am unacquainted with my own husband?" |
#96
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Radar vs GPS/Sounder
Finally, this guy got it right!
On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:04:51 GMT, Gary Schafer wrote: This is more bull**** Jeff. There is nothing wrong with your magnetron. The "rings" that you see associated with a strong target are the result of side lobes on your antenna. If it were the magnetron "double pulsing" you would see multiple targets at the same azimuth as the real target. They would be in front of or behind the real target. Unless of course you had a bad magnetron and you were right on top of a large target then you could get rings and multiple targets together. The radar antenna has a narrow beam that sweeps around in azimuth. The antenna azimuth is synchronized with the sweep on your display so that the sweep on your display always points in the same direction as your antenna. To picture clearer what is happening, think about what it would be like if there were no motor turning the antenna. You had to rotate it by hand. As you point the antenna at a target the transmitter is transmitting pulses many times per second. Between each of those pulses your receiver listens for an echo of those pulses being reflected from a target. Depending on how far away the target is determines how long it takes for the echo to return to the receiver. The sweep on your scope is traveling out toward the edge of your display at the same rate that it takes to send out the radar pulse and get it back. This also happens many times per second. Exactly in sync with the radar pulse being transmitted. The center of the screen is at the time the radar pulse leaves the radar transmitter. Time zero = zero miles. As an echo is received the sweep gets intensified at that time. With out the antenna rotating you would see a bright spot at the range on the sweep line on your screen. Now as you manually slowly rotate your antenna in one direction you will continue to see the bright spot at the same range but the sweep will be at a slightly different azimuth on your display. The spot will now get stretched out and appear to be forming a small line or arc still at the same range. This arc will be visible as long as the target is within the beam width of your antenna. The line or arc appears on the screen due to the digital circuitry holding or remembering the signal. On older radar's without digital storage this holding of the arc was dependent on the type of phosphorus used in the display tube. It would slowly fade. You tv tube works much in the same way but fades much faster. Anyway, as you continue to manually rotate your antenna, you will reach an azimuth where the beam width of the antenna is no longer illuminating the target. The dot on your display sweep will not be seen any more. But the small arc will still be visible because of the storage. It will hold that image or display until the next time the sweep has made a full 360 degree rotation. Then it will erase that information and display the new information if there is any to display. As you continue to rotate the antenna, if one of the side or rear lobes are strong enough you will again see the dot on the sweep appear at the same range as you did earlier. But now your antenna may be pointed 10 or 20 degrees away from the target and your display, being in sync with your antenna will also be 10 or 20 degrees off the target. So the dot will look like there is another target at the same range but a different azimuth to the original target. As you continue to turn the antenna it will form an arc on the screen as long as that side lobe is strong enough to give a return signal. It is not uncommon to be near a large ship and see what looks like the same ship 180 degrees from the original. Sometimes when the target is close and very large you can pick it up in 360 degrees on your radar. Turning down your gain will get rid of the unwanted responses as your main lobe is always stronger than the side lobe signals. But be careful if you turn down the gain for this purpose as it will also eliminate many of the weaker wanted targets too. Regards Gary On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:24:35 -0500, "Jeff Morris" wrote: I hope its not age in my case - my radar is less than 4 years old and I believe I had this effect from the beginning. "Me" wrote in message ... In article , Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote: I do see what you describe occasionally with a Raytheon SR 70. I never have seen the other phenomenon, and I never saw this one with the previous Furuno 1720. I don't think it indicates an active radar on the target, because I have had it happen with big rocks. It usually goes away pretty soon. Hmmm, sounds like maybe your Magnitron is getting old. Been know to cause mutiple echo's from a single boat, or rock. If they are infront of and behind the real target, it is reflections. If it is right or left, could be what is known as Multiple Pulsing. Me |
#97
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Radar vs GPS/Sounder
Finally, this guy got it right!
On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:04:51 GMT, Gary Schafer wrote: This is more bull**** Jeff. There is nothing wrong with your magnetron. The "rings" that you see associated with a strong target are the result of side lobes on your antenna. If it were the magnetron "double pulsing" you would see multiple targets at the same azimuth as the real target. They would be in front of or behind the real target. Unless of course you had a bad magnetron and you were right on top of a large target then you could get rings and multiple targets together. The radar antenna has a narrow beam that sweeps around in azimuth. The antenna azimuth is synchronized with the sweep on your display so that the sweep on your display always points in the same direction as your antenna. To picture clearer what is happening, think about what it would be like if there were no motor turning the antenna. You had to rotate it by hand. As you point the antenna at a target the transmitter is transmitting pulses many times per second. Between each of those pulses your receiver listens for an echo of those pulses being reflected from a target. Depending on how far away the target is determines how long it takes for the echo to return to the receiver. The sweep on your scope is traveling out toward the edge of your display at the same rate that it takes to send out the radar pulse and get it back. This also happens many times per second. Exactly in sync with the radar pulse being transmitted. The center of the screen is at the time the radar pulse leaves the radar transmitter. Time zero = zero miles. As an echo is received the sweep gets intensified at that time. With out the antenna rotating you would see a bright spot at the range on the sweep line on your screen. Now as you manually slowly rotate your antenna in one direction you will continue to see the bright spot at the same range but the sweep will be at a slightly different azimuth on your display. The spot will now get stretched out and appear to be forming a small line or arc still at the same range. This arc will be visible as long as the target is within the beam width of your antenna. The line or arc appears on the screen due to the digital circuitry holding or remembering the signal. On older radar's without digital storage this holding of the arc was dependent on the type of phosphorus used in the display tube. It would slowly fade. You tv tube works much in the same way but fades much faster. Anyway, as you continue to manually rotate your antenna, you will reach an azimuth where the beam width of the antenna is no longer illuminating the target. The dot on your display sweep will not be seen any more. But the small arc will still be visible because of the storage. It will hold that image or display until the next time the sweep has made a full 360 degree rotation. Then it will erase that information and display the new information if there is any to display. As you continue to rotate the antenna, if one of the side or rear lobes are strong enough you will again see the dot on the sweep appear at the same range as you did earlier. But now your antenna may be pointed 10 or 20 degrees away from the target and your display, being in sync with your antenna will also be 10 or 20 degrees off the target. So the dot will look like there is another target at the same range but a different azimuth to the original target. As you continue to turn the antenna it will form an arc on the screen as long as that side lobe is strong enough to give a return signal. It is not uncommon to be near a large ship and see what looks like the same ship 180 degrees from the original. Sometimes when the target is close and very large you can pick it up in 360 degrees on your radar. Turning down your gain will get rid of the unwanted responses as your main lobe is always stronger than the side lobe signals. But be careful if you turn down the gain for this purpose as it will also eliminate many of the weaker wanted targets too. Regards Gary On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:24:35 -0500, "Jeff Morris" wrote: I hope its not age in my case - my radar is less than 4 years old and I believe I had this effect from the beginning. "Me" wrote in message ... In article , Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote: I do see what you describe occasionally with a Raytheon SR 70. I never have seen the other phenomenon, and I never saw this one with the previous Furuno 1720. I don't think it indicates an active radar on the target, because I have had it happen with big rocks. It usually goes away pretty soon. Hmmm, sounds like maybe your Magnitron is getting old. Been know to cause mutiple echo's from a single boat, or rock. If they are infront of and behind the real target, it is reflections. If it is right or left, could be what is known as Multiple Pulsing. Me |
#98
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Radar vs GPS/Sounder
Yes, but a day before this post I said that side lobes seemed like the best explanation.
-- -jeff "Steve H" wrote in message ... Finally, this guy got it right! On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:04:51 GMT, Gary Schafer wrote: This is more bull**** Jeff. There is nothing wrong with your magnetron. The "rings" that you see associated with a strong target are the result of side lobes on your antenna. If it were the magnetron "double pulsing" you would see multiple targets at the same azimuth as the real target. They would be in front of or behind the real target. Unless of course you had a bad magnetron and you were right on top of a large target then you could get rings and multiple targets together. The radar antenna has a narrow beam that sweeps around in azimuth. The antenna azimuth is synchronized with the sweep on your display so that the sweep on your display always points in the same direction as your antenna. To picture clearer what is happening, think about what it would be like if there were no motor turning the antenna. You had to rotate it by hand. As you point the antenna at a target the transmitter is transmitting pulses many times per second. Between each of those pulses your receiver listens for an echo of those pulses being reflected from a target. Depending on how far away the target is determines how long it takes for the echo to return to the receiver. The sweep on your scope is traveling out toward the edge of your display at the same rate that it takes to send out the radar pulse and get it back. This also happens many times per second. Exactly in sync with the radar pulse being transmitted. The center of the screen is at the time the radar pulse leaves the radar transmitter. Time zero = zero miles. As an echo is received the sweep gets intensified at that time. With out the antenna rotating you would see a bright spot at the range on the sweep line on your screen. Now as you manually slowly rotate your antenna in one direction you will continue to see the bright spot at the same range but the sweep will be at a slightly different azimuth on your display. The spot will now get stretched out and appear to be forming a small line or arc still at the same range. This arc will be visible as long as the target is within the beam width of your antenna. The line or arc appears on the screen due to the digital circuitry holding or remembering the signal. On older radar's without digital storage this holding of the arc was dependent on the type of phosphorus used in the display tube. It would slowly fade. You tv tube works much in the same way but fades much faster. Anyway, as you continue to manually rotate your antenna, you will reach an azimuth where the beam width of the antenna is no longer illuminating the target. The dot on your display sweep will not be seen any more. But the small arc will still be visible because of the storage. It will hold that image or display until the next time the sweep has made a full 360 degree rotation. Then it will erase that information and display the new information if there is any to display. As you continue to rotate the antenna, if one of the side or rear lobes are strong enough you will again see the dot on the sweep appear at the same range as you did earlier. But now your antenna may be pointed 10 or 20 degrees away from the target and your display, being in sync with your antenna will also be 10 or 20 degrees off the target. So the dot will look like there is another target at the same range but a different azimuth to the original target. As you continue to turn the antenna it will form an arc on the screen as long as that side lobe is strong enough to give a return signal. It is not uncommon to be near a large ship and see what looks like the same ship 180 degrees from the original. Sometimes when the target is close and very large you can pick it up in 360 degrees on your radar. Turning down your gain will get rid of the unwanted responses as your main lobe is always stronger than the side lobe signals. But be careful if you turn down the gain for this purpose as it will also eliminate many of the weaker wanted targets too. Regards Gary On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:24:35 -0500, "Jeff Morris" wrote: I hope its not age in my case - my radar is less than 4 years old and I believe I had this effect from the beginning. "Me" wrote in message ... In article , Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote: I do see what you describe occasionally with a Raytheon SR 70. I never have seen the other phenomenon, and I never saw this one with the previous Furuno 1720. I don't think it indicates an active radar on the target, because I have had it happen with big rocks. It usually goes away pretty soon. Hmmm, sounds like maybe your Magnitron is getting old. Been know to cause mutiple echo's from a single boat, or rock. If they are infront of and behind the real target, it is reflections. If it is right or left, could be what is known as Multiple Pulsing. Me |
#99
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Radar vs GPS/Sounder
Yes, but a day before this post I said that side lobes seemed like the best explanation.
-- -jeff "Steve H" wrote in message ... Finally, this guy got it right! On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:04:51 GMT, Gary Schafer wrote: This is more bull**** Jeff. There is nothing wrong with your magnetron. The "rings" that you see associated with a strong target are the result of side lobes on your antenna. If it were the magnetron "double pulsing" you would see multiple targets at the same azimuth as the real target. They would be in front of or behind the real target. Unless of course you had a bad magnetron and you were right on top of a large target then you could get rings and multiple targets together. The radar antenna has a narrow beam that sweeps around in azimuth. The antenna azimuth is synchronized with the sweep on your display so that the sweep on your display always points in the same direction as your antenna. To picture clearer what is happening, think about what it would be like if there were no motor turning the antenna. You had to rotate it by hand. As you point the antenna at a target the transmitter is transmitting pulses many times per second. Between each of those pulses your receiver listens for an echo of those pulses being reflected from a target. Depending on how far away the target is determines how long it takes for the echo to return to the receiver. The sweep on your scope is traveling out toward the edge of your display at the same rate that it takes to send out the radar pulse and get it back. This also happens many times per second. Exactly in sync with the radar pulse being transmitted. The center of the screen is at the time the radar pulse leaves the radar transmitter. Time zero = zero miles. As an echo is received the sweep gets intensified at that time. With out the antenna rotating you would see a bright spot at the range on the sweep line on your screen. Now as you manually slowly rotate your antenna in one direction you will continue to see the bright spot at the same range but the sweep will be at a slightly different azimuth on your display. The spot will now get stretched out and appear to be forming a small line or arc still at the same range. This arc will be visible as long as the target is within the beam width of your antenna. The line or arc appears on the screen due to the digital circuitry holding or remembering the signal. On older radar's without digital storage this holding of the arc was dependent on the type of phosphorus used in the display tube. It would slowly fade. You tv tube works much in the same way but fades much faster. Anyway, as you continue to manually rotate your antenna, you will reach an azimuth where the beam width of the antenna is no longer illuminating the target. The dot on your display sweep will not be seen any more. But the small arc will still be visible because of the storage. It will hold that image or display until the next time the sweep has made a full 360 degree rotation. Then it will erase that information and display the new information if there is any to display. As you continue to rotate the antenna, if one of the side or rear lobes are strong enough you will again see the dot on the sweep appear at the same range as you did earlier. But now your antenna may be pointed 10 or 20 degrees away from the target and your display, being in sync with your antenna will also be 10 or 20 degrees off the target. So the dot will look like there is another target at the same range but a different azimuth to the original target. As you continue to turn the antenna it will form an arc on the screen as long as that side lobe is strong enough to give a return signal. It is not uncommon to be near a large ship and see what looks like the same ship 180 degrees from the original. Sometimes when the target is close and very large you can pick it up in 360 degrees on your radar. Turning down your gain will get rid of the unwanted responses as your main lobe is always stronger than the side lobe signals. But be careful if you turn down the gain for this purpose as it will also eliminate many of the weaker wanted targets too. Regards Gary On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:24:35 -0500, "Jeff Morris" wrote: I hope its not age in my case - my radar is less than 4 years old and I believe I had this effect from the beginning. "Me" wrote in message ... In article , Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote: I do see what you describe occasionally with a Raytheon SR 70. I never have seen the other phenomenon, and I never saw this one with the previous Furuno 1720. I don't think it indicates an active radar on the target, because I have had it happen with big rocks. It usually goes away pretty soon. Hmmm, sounds like maybe your Magnitron is getting old. Been know to cause mutiple echo's from a single boat, or rock. If they are infront of and behind the real target, it is reflections. If it is right or left, could be what is known as Multiple Pulsing. Me |
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