Kathy Mumma wrote:

We are just researching now and planning to buy next winter. But your post
brings up a question I have, if you don't mind.
Does the group think it is better/cheaper to buy from an owner privately; or
a broker? It seems the broker prices are more inflated and the boats carry
less equipment. Some seem stripped actually.
The privately owned boats better equipped?
I realize this is subjective of course. I imagine many will buy "up" to
larger boats and move equipment.
This will be first boat so this will be a large factor.
Any input welcome!
Thanks,
Kathy M.

Generally, we find that brokered boats are cleaner, with less junk lying
around. (There are exceptions; Xan was one.) Most of the extra stuff on
some boats is pretty much going to be replaced or tossed. It's sorta
cool at first to have some of the personal stuff onboard, but it
eventually finds its way to the trash bin. Even a lot of electronics and
other "useful" gear is often out of date or near its useful life. For
instance, I never found LORAN to be particularly useful even if the
previous owner (PO) used it regularly. Xan's old crystal-controlled VHF
was immediately replaced along with the depth and speed equipment which
seemed okay, but was pretty much DOA. On some boats, the various fabrics
on cushions and windows would have been the first to be replaced.

'Course, every boat, PO, and buyer is different. Often, an owner sells
privately because a broker recommended a lower value than they think
their baby is worth. Often a truly great deal is available via broker,
particularly if your first bid is appropriate for the actual market for
that boat.

Key to everything is your knowing about what a particular boat is
actually worth on the market. That requires a bit of research on your
part, but that is far easier these days than it was a decade ago.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 05:54:03 +0000, WaIIy wrote:

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 03:14:14 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
.due.to.spam wrote:

Howdy...

I'm in the next stage of our boat search, with very encouraging results. We've
found several boats which work for us; the next step is to continue with the
trip(s) to the rest of the close to 200 candidates identified in this last
research. I'll expand on that in a separate post.

Your stories are certainly interesting, but are you *sure* you are going to buy
a boat?

Another comment: Are you SURE you need a broker?

Seems to me the first broker you mentioned did some broker-like things, like
trying to narrow your search, give you advice, etc. You rejected it (which is
fair enough). In fact, you seem to be someone who doesn't like to be TOLD stuff
- you want to form your own conclusions. So I'd say you DON'T need a broker to
hold your hand while you notate, measure, video, etc. all the boats you're
looking at.

Seems like you only need a broker to negotiate price once you've settled on a
boat, and you're probably wasting THEIR time asking them for advice then not
taking it.

Why not go to the broker with this in mind? Tell him you'd like to look at these
boats by yourself and form your own conclusions, and let him know what the
result is. I think you'd be thanked. As someone else said, you want to buy a
boat, not be sold one.

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 05:54:03 +0000, WaIIy wrote:

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 03:14:14 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
.due.to.spam wrote:

Howdy...

I'm in the next stage of our boat search, with very encouraging results. We've
found several boats which work for us; the next step is to continue with the
trip(s) to the rest of the close to 200 candidates identified in this last
research. I'll expand on that in a separate post.

Your stories are certainly interesting, but are you *sure* you are going to buy
a boat?

Another comment: Are you SURE you need a broker?

Seems to me the first broker you mentioned did some broker-like things, like
trying to narrow your search, give you advice, etc. You rejected it (which is
fair enough). In fact, you seem to be someone who doesn't like to be TOLD stuff
- you want to form your own conclusions. So I'd say you DON'T need a broker to
hold your hand while you notate, measure, video, etc. all the boats you're
looking at.

Seems like you only need a broker to negotiate price once you've settled on a
boat, and you're probably wasting THEIR time asking them for advice then not
taking it.

Why not go to the broker with this in mind? Tell him you'd like to look at these
boats by yourself and form your own conclusions, and let him know what the
result is. I think you'd be thanked. As someone else said, you want to buy a
boat, not be sold one.

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36

Thanks for reply. Seems to make a lot of sense, especially when we are just
learning. We are hoping to take advantage on winter prices for boat AND gear
anyway. Last years models in working condition would be much better than
equipment included which is DOA.
Kathy M.
"Jere Lull" wrote in message
...
Kathy Mumma wrote:

We are just researching now and planning to buy next winter. But your
post
brings up a question I have, if you don't mind.
Does the group think it is better/cheaper to buy from an owner privately;
or
a broker? It seems the broker prices are more inflated and the boats
carry
less equipment. Some seem stripped actually.
The privately owned boats better equipped?
I realize this is subjective of course. I imagine many will buy "up" to
larger boats and move equipment.
This will be first boat so this will be a large factor.
Any input welcome!
Thanks,
Kathy M.

Generally, we find that brokered boats are cleaner, with less junk lying
around. (There are exceptions; Xan was one.) Most of the extra stuff on
some boats is pretty much going to be replaced or tossed. It's sorta
cool at first to have some of the personal stuff onboard, but it
eventually finds its way to the trash bin. Even a lot of electronics and
other "useful" gear is often out of date or near its useful life. For
instance, I never found LORAN to be particularly useful even if the
previous owner (PO) used it regularly. Xan's old crystal-controlled VHF
was immediately replaced along with the depth and speed equipment which
seemed okay, but was pretty much DOA. On some boats, the various fabrics
on cushions and windows would have been the first to be replaced.

'Course, every boat, PO, and buyer is different. Often, an owner sells
privately because a broker recommended a lower value than they think
their baby is worth. Often a truly great deal is available via broker,
particularly if your first bid is appropriate for the actual market for
that boat.

Key to everything is your knowing about what a particular boat is
actually worth on the market. That requires a bit of research on your
part, but that is far easier these days than it was a decade ago.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Thanks for reply. Seems to make a lot of sense, especially when we are just
learning. We are hoping to take advantage on winter prices for boat AND gear
anyway. Last years models in working condition would be much better than
equipment included which is DOA.
Kathy M.
"Jere Lull" wrote in message
...
Kathy Mumma wrote:

We are just researching now and planning to buy next winter. But your
post
brings up a question I have, if you don't mind.
Does the group think it is better/cheaper to buy from an owner privately;
or
a broker? It seems the broker prices are more inflated and the boats
carry
less equipment. Some seem stripped actually.
The privately owned boats better equipped?
I realize this is subjective of course. I imagine many will buy "up" to
larger boats and move equipment.
This will be first boat so this will be a large factor.
Any input welcome!
Thanks,
Kathy M.

Generally, we find that brokered boats are cleaner, with less junk lying
around. (There are exceptions; Xan was one.) Most of the extra stuff on
some boats is pretty much going to be replaced or tossed. It's sorta
cool at first to have some of the personal stuff onboard, but it
eventually finds its way to the trash bin. Even a lot of electronics and
other "useful" gear is often out of date or near its useful life. For
instance, I never found LORAN to be particularly useful even if the
previous owner (PO) used it regularly. Xan's old crystal-controlled VHF
was immediately replaced along with the depth and speed equipment which
seemed okay, but was pretty much DOA. On some boats, the various fabrics
on cushions and windows would have been the first to be replaced.

'Course, every boat, PO, and buyer is different. Often, an owner sells
privately because a broker recommended a lower value than they think
their baby is worth. Often a truly great deal is available via broker,
particularly if your first bid is appropriate for the actual market for
that boat.

Key to everything is your knowing about what a particular boat is
actually worth on the market. That requires a bit of research on your
part, but that is far easier these days than it was a decade ago.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

x-no-archive:yes



"Kathy Mumma" wrote:

We are just researching now and planning to buy next winter. But your post
brings up a question I have, if you don't mind.
Does the group think it is better/cheaper to buy from an owner privately; or
a broker? It seems the broker prices are more inflated and the boats carry

A lot of times an owner will try to sell privately, be unsuccessful,
and then list it with a broker with the broker's commission added to
the sale price. So if you were sure that you wanted a particular type
of boat and could find one that was not yet listed with a broker (for
instance I keep a list of CSYs for sale and the owners often list them
with our group before they go to a broker), then it might be cheaper
to buy one that way.

You can look at BoatTrader where owners can list their own boats.
YachtWorld listings are of course all with brokers.

less equipment. Some seem stripped actually.
The privately owned boats better equipped?

I don't think the amount of equipment is the result of being listed
with a broker.

I realize this is subjective of course. I imagine many will buy "up" to
larger boats and move equipment.
This will be first boat so this will be a large factor.

We were lucky in that we got a boat which had very little on it in the
way of equipment. A LORAN which we've never used, an old VHF radio,
an AM/FM radio with speakers in the cockpit, and that was about it.
Not even a GPS. So we could get the equipment that we wanted that was
up to date as of when we bought it. We missed getting a boat that we
chartered and loved which had all the toys, but they were 5 years or
so old. (We missed it because we didn't know that it was on the
market.)

We had bad luck with several brokers - we spent some time in the Miami
Ft Lauderdale area with one broker looking at boats and asked him to
let us know if any of the kind we wanted became available, and one
did, and he didn't let us know. OTOH, one of the brokers up here
called us as soon as one came on the market up here, and we bought
that boat.

One thing about working with a broker - if the seller is suffering
second thoughts, he's less likely to yank the boat if he has to pay
the broker's commission anyway. We looked at several boats which the
seller wasn't really committed to selling. And I know of one boat
being sold privately where two separate parties made a full price
offer and the owners then raised the price. That boat also had a
bunch of equipment on it which didn't go with the sale.



grandma Rosalie

x-no-archive:yes



"Kathy Mumma" wrote:

We are just researching now and planning to buy next winter. But your post
brings up a question I have, if you don't mind.
Does the group think it is better/cheaper to buy from an owner privately; or
a broker? It seems the broker prices are more inflated and the boats carry

A lot of times an owner will try to sell privately, be unsuccessful,
and then list it with a broker with the broker's commission added to
the sale price. So if you were sure that you wanted a particular type
of boat and could find one that was not yet listed with a broker (for
instance I keep a list of CSYs for sale and the owners often list them
with our group before they go to a broker), then it might be cheaper
to buy one that way.

You can look at BoatTrader where owners can list their own boats.
YachtWorld listings are of course all with brokers.

less equipment. Some seem stripped actually.
The privately owned boats better equipped?

I don't think the amount of equipment is the result of being listed
with a broker.

I realize this is subjective of course. I imagine many will buy "up" to
larger boats and move equipment.
This will be first boat so this will be a large factor.

We were lucky in that we got a boat which had very little on it in the
way of equipment. A LORAN which we've never used, an old VHF radio,
an AM/FM radio with speakers in the cockpit, and that was about it.
Not even a GPS. So we could get the equipment that we wanted that was
up to date as of when we bought it. We missed getting a boat that we
chartered and loved which had all the toys, but they were 5 years or
so old. (We missed it because we didn't know that it was on the
market.)

We had bad luck with several brokers - we spent some time in the Miami
Ft Lauderdale area with one broker looking at boats and asked him to
let us know if any of the kind we wanted became available, and one
did, and he didn't let us know. OTOH, one of the brokers up here
called us as soon as one came on the market up here, and we bought
that boat.

One thing about working with a broker - if the seller is suffering
second thoughts, he's less likely to yank the boat if he has to pay
the broker's commission anyway. We looked at several boats which the
seller wasn't really committed to selling. And I know of one boat
being sold privately where two separate parties made a full price
offer and the owners then raised the price. That boat also had a
bunch of equipment on it which didn't go with the sale.



grandma Rosalie

Thanks for all the input.
Am gleaning a LOT of great information from the group.
Kathy M.

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
x-no-archive:yes



"Kathy Mumma" wrote:

We are just researching now and planning to buy next winter. But your
post
brings up a question I have, if you don't mind.
Does the group think it is better/cheaper to buy from an owner privately;
or
a broker? It seems the broker prices are more inflated and the boats
carry

A lot of times an owner will try to sell privately, be unsuccessful,
and then list it with a broker with the broker's commission added to
the sale price. So if you were sure that you wanted a particular type
of boat and could find one that was not yet listed with a broker (for
instance I keep a list of CSYs for sale and the owners often list them
with our group before they go to a broker), then it might be cheaper
to buy one that way.

You can look at BoatTrader where owners can list their own boats.
YachtWorld listings are of course all with brokers.

less equipment. Some seem stripped actually.
The privately owned boats better equipped?

I don't think the amount of equipment is the result of being listed
with a broker.

I realize this is subjective of course. I imagine many will buy "up" to
larger boats and move equipment.
This will be first boat so this will be a large factor.

We were lucky in that we got a boat which had very little on it in the
way of equipment. A LORAN which we've never used, an old VHF radio,
an AM/FM radio with speakers in the cockpit, and that was about it.
Not even a GPS. So we could get the equipment that we wanted that was
up to date as of when we bought it. We missed getting a boat that we
chartered and loved which had all the toys, but they were 5 years or
so old. (We missed it because we didn't know that it was on the
market.)

We had bad luck with several brokers - we spent some time in the Miami
Ft Lauderdale area with one broker looking at boats and asked him to
let us know if any of the kind we wanted became available, and one
did, and he didn't let us know. OTOH, one of the brokers up here
called us as soon as one came on the market up here, and we bought
that boat.

One thing about working with a broker - if the seller is suffering
second thoughts, he's less likely to yank the boat if he has to pay
the broker's commission anyway. We looked at several boats which the
seller wasn't really committed to selling. And I know of one boat
being sold privately where two separate parties made a full price
offer and the owners then raised the price. That boat also had a
bunch of equipment on it which didn't go with the sale.



grandma Rosalie

Thanks for all the input.
Am gleaning a LOT of great information from the group.
Kathy M.

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
x-no-archive:yes



"Kathy Mumma" wrote:

We are just researching now and planning to buy next winter. But your
post
brings up a question I have, if you don't mind.
Does the group think it is better/cheaper to buy from an owner privately;
or
a broker? It seems the broker prices are more inflated and the boats
carry

A lot of times an owner will try to sell privately, be unsuccessful,
and then list it with a broker with the broker's commission added to
the sale price. So if you were sure that you wanted a particular type
of boat and could find one that was not yet listed with a broker (for
instance I keep a list of CSYs for sale and the owners often list them
with our group before they go to a broker), then it might be cheaper
to buy one that way.

You can look at BoatTrader where owners can list their own boats.
YachtWorld listings are of course all with brokers.

less equipment. Some seem stripped actually.
The privately owned boats better equipped?

I don't think the amount of equipment is the result of being listed
with a broker.

I realize this is subjective of course. I imagine many will buy "up" to
larger boats and move equipment.
This will be first boat so this will be a large factor.

We were lucky in that we got a boat which had very little on it in the
way of equipment. A LORAN which we've never used, an old VHF radio,
an AM/FM radio with speakers in the cockpit, and that was about it.
Not even a GPS. So we could get the equipment that we wanted that was
up to date as of when we bought it. We missed getting a boat that we
chartered and loved which had all the toys, but they were 5 years or
so old. (We missed it because we didn't know that it was on the
market.)

We had bad luck with several brokers - we spent some time in the Miami
Ft Lauderdale area with one broker looking at boats and asked him to
let us know if any of the kind we wanted became available, and one
did, and he didn't let us know. OTOH, one of the brokers up here
called us as soon as one came on the market up here, and we bought
that boat.

One thing about working with a broker - if the seller is suffering
second thoughts, he's less likely to yank the boat if he has to pay
the broker's commission anyway. We looked at several boats which the
seller wasn't really committed to selling. And I know of one boat
being sold privately where two separate parties made a full price
offer and the owners then raised the price. That boat also had a
bunch of equipment on it which didn't go with the sale.



grandma Rosalie

Well, I'm back from the latest foray. I'll talk about that in a separate
post.

Another comment: Are you SURE you need a broker?

Seems to me the first broker you mentioned did some broker-like things,
like
trying to narrow your search, give you advice, etc. You rejected it (which
is
fair enough). In fact, you seem to be someone who doesn't like to be TOLD
stuff
- you want to form your own conclusions. So I'd say you DON'T need a
broker to
hold your hand while you notate, measure, video, etc. all the boats you're
looking at.

That's entirely true - in fact, I'm happy to have them go off somewhere and
attend to other business, while I'm busy on the boat, which some did, this
last trip. What I *do* need a broker to do is set up the viewings, and
since they know the area, get me to and from each of them in the least
amount of time.

So, I don't need them on the boat with me - I just need them to make me get
on as many as possible, in as short as possible a time.


Seems like you only need a broker to negotiate price once you've settled
on a
boat, and you're probably wasting THEIR time asking them for advice then
not
taking it.

Why not go to the broker with this in mind? Tell him you'd like to look at
these
boats by yourself and form your own conclusions, and let him know what the
result is. I think you'd be thanked. As someone else said, you want to buy
a
boat, not be sold one.

I've not really had a problem, once I've gotten under way, other than with
the specific broker mentioned. Plus the ones who are actually listening
(and doing some feedback/questioning, which he didn't do) go beyond the
initial setups and suggest others which might work. If we've already
isolated the type, I'll know about it and we can move on. If not, as
happened in the last trip, serendipity, or providence, depending on your
position, may have it that the broker, in taking me around a yard with a
bunch of boats immediately available and to hand, puts me on the boat which
works for us, when it hadn't been on the list. Without the broker, I'd have
never been on that boat, and still looking, probably, though as the separate
post will point out, there are now several choices, most of which have more
than one from which to choose...

So, I'm glad I've used brokers. There's no way I could have seen the
several hundred examples, including going aboard well over 100 - close to
200 - individual boats, without brokers doing most of the shuttling, in the
total of only about 40 days on the road.

Of course, if you already know what boat you want, and where to fiind it,
you don't need a broker, other than if the boat's listed with a broker...

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy)

--
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover." - Mark Twain