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Old November 17th 03, 03:14 AM
Skip Gundlach
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Chesapeake Bay Boat Buying" followup/Boat search update

Howdy...

I'm in the next stage of our boat search, with very encouraging results.
We've found several boats which work for us; the next step is to continue
with the trip(s) to the rest of the close to 200 candidates identified in
this last research. I'll expand on that in a separate post.

However, on the subject of the Chesapeake Bay portion of this search
segment:

Just a followup to my original message of a couple of weeks ago.

Quick synopsis of befo I'd been led to believe (mistakenly) that I
might have to go to each individual broker in the Chesapeake Bay area in
order to look at the boats I'd selected. By way of background, I'm out
looking while my wife stays in the salt mines; I start with a thoroughly
researched list, and when I'm on a boat, I take detailed notes on the
YachtWorld listing page that I've printed out for the purpose, in order
to keep the large number of boats I've seen straight. I also video,
along with write a 6-page report on, those I think are good candidates
for purchase, in order to back up the notes with visual observations
when I'm bringing the results home... Following the original post of
this title, I received some recommendations of brokers, one of which was
duplicated, so that's the broker I selected.

I called the office. The recommended broker was not available at the
time, "but I'm his partner" was. "We work together." Of course...

Sure enough, when I identified what I had in mind (seeing all the boats
in the area around Annapolis and the Eastern Shore, with my prepared
list), the partner asked me a few questions about what our sailing
objectives were, and reassured me that they'd eagerly work with me,
including the weekend in between when I arrived and before I expected to
have finished the list. By agreement, I sent him the spreadsheet of the
listings in which I had an interest.

On arrival, we reviewed my list. He (the partner with whom I was to
work) had cut it in less than half based on assumptions which he'd made;
we succeeded in restoring most of it after discussion which revealed the
inadvisability of the assumptions. He also observed that for some of
the further boats, he'd 'send me off on my own with a ham sandwich' and
directions and setting up the showing with the other broker. I found
that reasonable, given the couple of far-flung instances.

So, we set to work on Wednesday morning (he never could be there earlier
than 9:30). One of the boats on my list had just had an offer accepted,
and a survey done, and a counter offer made. He agreed that we should
still see this boat, which we did, in the pouring rain, as one never
knows what will happen to a deal in process. It was one in which I did
a video and writeup (the following day, when there was some sunshine!).
That's something I'd not do unless I would consider purchase of that
type of boat, even if that one were to be sold, and I do it in order to
document not only a specific boat, but a boat type, since we're still
trying to find a boat I can fit on. Since he knew that I didn't video
anything which wasn't a potential for purchase, and I'd done a couple of
other video and reports, I expect he felt he had a "live one". However,
I sensed a growing irritation that I'd not made an offer on this boat.
Since there was an active, accepted contract in place, even if I'd been
moved to make an offer, I felt that I was not in a position to do so
until the buyer asked for his deposit to be returned. For what it's
worth, the buyer was still actively pursuing the boat's purchase through
my departure from the area nearly a week later. Despite that, he
actively (politely stated) solicited a contract from me for that boat.

In any event, Friday afternoon arrived, and after we'd arrived back in
the office to review our progress, the partner announced, in effect
(paraphrased), "I've shown you the best boat for you" (the one with the
contract in place). "If you don't buy that boat, I don't have any use
for you. Just go ahead and go direct on the rest of the boats. If you
want to see the rest of these in Annapolis, you're an idiot. You can go
direct on those. I don't want to go to the Eastern Shore, so just go
ahead and see *those* on your own. Call me on Monday and let me know
how you made out. Maybe we can see the XXX then." (The XXX is another
boat which had a sistership in horrible condition, but which appeared
might work for us, so he'd apparently felt there was some merit to
keeping that one open.)

Well, you can (if you realize it's Friday night and no arrangements with
any other brokers have been made!) imagine I was not a very happy camper
at that point. I'm faced with sitting in a hotel, trying to find
brokers to talk to, on a Saturday morning, when, if they *do* come in,
it's usually not until 10 or later. Never mind what might be the end
result on Sunday, with no prior commitments to meet, nor that I'd
specifically covered this broker's willingness to work on the weekends
and cover the area involved, when making the selection of who to work
with...

So, as you might conclude, I'm not pleased with this broker (the partner
to the one I'd had two referrals into). Given that I'm not one to point
fingers, I'll only say that if you want to know who it is, drop me a
line off-list.

Now for the good news, and a recommendation, including a couple of
stories: Scrambling as hard as I could to make it happen, one of the
listing sheets I'd made up had a broker who listed his cell phone as
part of the listing information. I reached him, and made arrangements to
see most of the boats on the Eastern Shore. The others I managed to
track down on my own, not even involving a broker (they turned out to be
boats which would not work for us), by going to yards in which they were
placed (having had that information from the original broker, before he
pulled the plug). The broker I worked with on the Eastern Shore, and
fervently wished I'd called to begin with, was Frank Gary, of Bristol
Yachts in Annapolis. I found him to be totally professional in every
regard. I later got to visit him in his Annapolis office, and while
there, noted that he was a past broker of the year. I'm not
surprised...

In the course of working with him on the Eastern Shore, he explored our
objectives, budget, time frame, and all the other things a good
salesperson would do. In addition to a professional appearance and
demeanor (definitely not the case with the prior), his objective (at
least as far as anything I could see, certainly) was to be the best
possible representative of the boats available, whether his or other
companies' listings, without in any way attempting to push or bend our
objectives, and offered two telling pieces of advice. The first was
that I should absolutely not make an offer on any boat which didn't
reach out and grab me and not let go. The second is that I should
ignore the price shown in making any offer. He followed the second with
the observation that too many buyers had ignored his answer to their
"What do you think I should offer for this boat?" and offered far less -
with a resulting sale with no counter. (In case it's not readily
apparent, this is *not* the presentation being made by the other
broker.) Wow. What a refreshing contrast! Jumping out of time
sequence and ahead for a moment, that other broker did, indeed, show me
that other boat after the weekend. However, when we parted later that
day, he made it very plain that he was entirely disgusted that I had not
bought a boat from him. However, back to Frank:

So, we saw several boats in the weekend. In addition to ones I'd
identified, he showed me several we'd not had on our list. One of them
is on our "intense scrutiny" list - the very short list of boats we're
actively considering buying. Beyond that, he did research which allowed
me to see additional boats the day following my departure from the first
broker. *Those* were in Annapolis, and there was another boat which
he'd found (back!) on the Eastern Shore, to which he was quite happy to
take me, as well. However, since that one had a contract on it as well,
and the selling broker expected it to succeed, we decided to take a pass
on it.

Epilogue: Monday, after our having worked together over the weekend, he
had an email in my box thanking me for the time and wishing me well.
Wednesday, after our working together again on Tuesday, he had another
email, just following up, wishing me well on my continuing search and
offering encouragement for the 1000 mile dash down the coast and back
home. Guess who else hasn't said boo??

So, in the end, what's the point?

If you want to get professional brokerage services in the Chesapeake Bay
area, I could not recommend anyone or company higher than Frank Gary and
Bristol Yachts in Annapolis. Further, while I won't soil this space
with the other, if you want to know who it is/was, I'll answer any
questions you may have off-list...

L8R

Skip, Frank's info below:

Frank E. Gary
Bristol Yacht Sales
623 Sixth St.
Annapolis, MD 21403
Tel: 800-610 5300
Cell: 410-703 4017
Email:



  #2   Report Post  
Old November 17th 03, 01:09 PM
DSK
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Chesapeake Bay Boat Buying" followup/Boat search update

WaIIy wrote:


Your stories are certainly interesting, but are you *sure* you are going
to buy a boat?


Sounds to me like he's doing a good job in shopping carefully. What's your
problem?

DSK


  #3   Report Post  
Old November 17th 03, 01:09 PM
DSK
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Chesapeake Bay Boat Buying" followup/Boat search update

WaIIy wrote:


Your stories are certainly interesting, but are you *sure* you are going
to buy a boat?


Sounds to me like he's doing a good job in shopping carefully. What's your
problem?

DSK


  #4   Report Post  
Old November 18th 03, 12:13 AM
Skip Gundlach
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Chesapeake Bay Boat Buying" followup/Boat search update

Howdy...

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 03:14:14 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
.due.to.spam wrote:

Howdy...

I'm in the next stage of our boat search, with very encouraging results.
We've found several boats which work for us; the next step is to continue
with the trip(s) to the rest of the close to 200 candidates identified in
this last research. I'll expand on that in a separate post.


Your stories are certainly interesting, but are you *sure* you are going
to buy a boat?


That's an entirely valid question, given the amount of exposure this group
has had to the process. Of course, most of the readers here can't
adequately relate without having come off a boat with head bleeding (as
happened on this last trip), because the search process is immeasurably (OK,
someone could probably quantify it!) more difficult when the universe of
boats on which I can fit is so small, and despite all the hoo-ha of the
advertising, the info presented is wrong more often than it's right. Case
in point is the Morgan I drove several hours to see, fighting car troubles
all the way, which had stated that the walk-through was 6-4. I made the
irrational assumption that if the walk-through was that tall, likely the
rest of it was similar or better.

Imagine my irritation, since that was the *only* boat in that market, and I
could have been 5 hours closer to home by not coming there, as it was the
last boat on that trip, when the walk-through proved to be 6-1 at the tall
end and 6-0 at the short end. The stern cabin was appropriately sized to
the walk-through, which is to say that I walked right off again, having
proved it to be a "bonk boat" - my name for the rejects due to height.

Now that I'm finished with my excuses, you'll be thrilled to know that I put
up a 2-digit number of boatbux as the deposit on a boat 8 days ago, which
offer was immediately accepted. The fact that we rejected the boat after
the offer was accepted (details privately if of any interest to any here),
and the monies about to be refunded isn't germane to your question.

So, the answer is yes. But I refuse to go into a high 5 or low 6 figure
investment which I intend to live on for the rest of my days (which is
likely to be a very long time) without being satisfied that I'll not only
enjoy it, but that it will be a good investment should I have to leave, for
whatever reason.

Stay tuned. We've now got more than one candidate, and my next trip has
another dozen or so potentials we've not yet been aboard (see above for
expectations of truth in advertising, however!), of boats which work, under
40 feet, and several which also work in the low 40s.

Just doing my due diligence. If you think it inappropriate, I've got a
business I'd like to sell you... :{))

And just in case you haven't been paying attention, that's the second boat
on which we've offered. The first was rejected, this was accepted...

Yes, we're going to buy a boat...

L8R

Skip


  #5   Report Post  
Old November 18th 03, 12:13 AM
Skip Gundlach
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Chesapeake Bay Boat Buying" followup/Boat search update

Howdy...

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 03:14:14 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
.due.to.spam wrote:

Howdy...

I'm in the next stage of our boat search, with very encouraging results.
We've found several boats which work for us; the next step is to continue
with the trip(s) to the rest of the close to 200 candidates identified in
this last research. I'll expand on that in a separate post.


Your stories are certainly interesting, but are you *sure* you are going
to buy a boat?


That's an entirely valid question, given the amount of exposure this group
has had to the process. Of course, most of the readers here can't
adequately relate without having come off a boat with head bleeding (as
happened on this last trip), because the search process is immeasurably (OK,
someone could probably quantify it!) more difficult when the universe of
boats on which I can fit is so small, and despite all the hoo-ha of the
advertising, the info presented is wrong more often than it's right. Case
in point is the Morgan I drove several hours to see, fighting car troubles
all the way, which had stated that the walk-through was 6-4. I made the
irrational assumption that if the walk-through was that tall, likely the
rest of it was similar or better.

Imagine my irritation, since that was the *only* boat in that market, and I
could have been 5 hours closer to home by not coming there, as it was the
last boat on that trip, when the walk-through proved to be 6-1 at the tall
end and 6-0 at the short end. The stern cabin was appropriately sized to
the walk-through, which is to say that I walked right off again, having
proved it to be a "bonk boat" - my name for the rejects due to height.

Now that I'm finished with my excuses, you'll be thrilled to know that I put
up a 2-digit number of boatbux as the deposit on a boat 8 days ago, which
offer was immediately accepted. The fact that we rejected the boat after
the offer was accepted (details privately if of any interest to any here),
and the monies about to be refunded isn't germane to your question.

So, the answer is yes. But I refuse to go into a high 5 or low 6 figure
investment which I intend to live on for the rest of my days (which is
likely to be a very long time) without being satisfied that I'll not only
enjoy it, but that it will be a good investment should I have to leave, for
whatever reason.

Stay tuned. We've now got more than one candidate, and my next trip has
another dozen or so potentials we've not yet been aboard (see above for
expectations of truth in advertising, however!), of boats which work, under
40 feet, and several which also work in the low 40s.

Just doing my due diligence. If you think it inappropriate, I've got a
business I'd like to sell you... :{))

And just in case you haven't been paying attention, that's the second boat
on which we've offered. The first was rejected, this was accepted...

Yes, we're going to buy a boat...

L8R

Skip




  #6   Report Post  
Old November 18th 03, 01:56 PM
DSK
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Chesapeake Bay Boat Buying" followup/Boat search update



Skip Gundlach wrote:

..... despite all the hoo-ha of the
advertising, the info presented is wrong more often than it's right. Case
in point is the Morgan I drove several hours to see, fighting car troubles
all the way, which had stated that the walk-through was 6-4. I made the
irrational assumption that if the walk-through was that tall, likely the
rest of it was similar or better.

Imagine my irritation, since that was the *only* boat in that market, and I
could have been 5 hours closer to home by not coming there, as it was the
last boat on that trip, when the walk-through proved to be 6-1 at the tall
end and 6-0 at the short end.


Should have handed the broker who gave you the bad info a bill for your time. I
threatened to do this with several of the less-good brokers we tried to deal
with when hunting for our last boat.


And just in case you haven't been paying attention, that's the second boat
on which we've offered. The first was rejected, this was accepted...


Keep the faith. My wife and I made made offers on 6 and had 2 accepted, only to
fall through, before we landed 'the one.'



Yes, we're going to buy a boat...


I used to say, "We *are* going to buy a boat, but we refuse to be sold a boat."
A lot of brokers could not tell the difference.

We also saw a lot of ironic circumstances, such as the boat we really liked &
would have suited our needs; only to have the owner refuse to consider the boats
actual condition & equipment instead of what he imagined it to be... six months
later he sold the boat for less than our offer which he'd refused, after paying
to have some of the stuff fixed that we'd balked at. Three of the boats we made
offers on are still for sale. But we waded through a LOT of BS and
misrepresentation and unprofessional conduct by brokers, oh yes. It's a wonder
that anybody actually buys boats at all.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

  #7   Report Post  
Old November 18th 03, 01:56 PM
DSK
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Chesapeake Bay Boat Buying" followup/Boat search update



Skip Gundlach wrote:

..... despite all the hoo-ha of the
advertising, the info presented is wrong more often than it's right. Case
in point is the Morgan I drove several hours to see, fighting car troubles
all the way, which had stated that the walk-through was 6-4. I made the
irrational assumption that if the walk-through was that tall, likely the
rest of it was similar or better.

Imagine my irritation, since that was the *only* boat in that market, and I
could have been 5 hours closer to home by not coming there, as it was the
last boat on that trip, when the walk-through proved to be 6-1 at the tall
end and 6-0 at the short end.


Should have handed the broker who gave you the bad info a bill for your time. I
threatened to do this with several of the less-good brokers we tried to deal
with when hunting for our last boat.


And just in case you haven't been paying attention, that's the second boat
on which we've offered. The first was rejected, this was accepted...


Keep the faith. My wife and I made made offers on 6 and had 2 accepted, only to
fall through, before we landed 'the one.'



Yes, we're going to buy a boat...


I used to say, "We *are* going to buy a boat, but we refuse to be sold a boat."
A lot of brokers could not tell the difference.

We also saw a lot of ironic circumstances, such as the boat we really liked &
would have suited our needs; only to have the owner refuse to consider the boats
actual condition & equipment instead of what he imagined it to be... six months
later he sold the boat for less than our offer which he'd refused, after paying
to have some of the stuff fixed that we'd balked at. Three of the boats we made
offers on are still for sale. But we waded through a LOT of BS and
misrepresentation and unprofessional conduct by brokers, oh yes. It's a wonder
that anybody actually buys boats at all.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

  #8   Report Post  
Old November 30th 03, 10:34 PM
Kathy Mumma
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Chesapeake Bay Boat Buying" followup/Boat search update

We are just researching now and planning to buy next winter. But your post
brings up a question I have, if you don't mind.
Does the group think it is better/cheaper to buy from an owner privately; or
a broker? It seems the broker prices are more inflated and the boats carry
less equipment. Some seem stripped actually.
The privately owned boats better equipped?
I realize this is subjective of course. I imagine many will buy "up" to
larger boats and move equipment.
This will be first boat so this will be a large factor.
Any input welcome!
Thanks,
Kathy M.
"DSK" wrote in message
...


Skip Gundlach wrote:

..... despite all the hoo-ha of the
advertising, the info presented is wrong more often than it's right.

Case
in point is the Morgan I drove several hours to see, fighting car

troubles
all the way, which had stated that the walk-through was 6-4. I made the
irrational assumption that if the walk-through was that tall, likely the
rest of it was similar or better.

Imagine my irritation, since that was the *only* boat in that market,

and I
could have been 5 hours closer to home by not coming there, as it was

the
last boat on that trip, when the walk-through proved to be 6-1 at the

tall
end and 6-0 at the short end.


Should have handed the broker who gave you the bad info a bill for your

time. I
threatened to do this with several of the less-good brokers we tried to

deal
with when hunting for our last boat.


And just in case you haven't been paying attention, that's the second

boat
on which we've offered. The first was rejected, this was accepted...


Keep the faith. My wife and I made made offers on 6 and had 2 accepted,

only to
fall through, before we landed 'the one.'



Yes, we're going to buy a boat...


I used to say, "We *are* going to buy a boat, but we refuse to be sold a

boat."
A lot of brokers could not tell the difference.

We also saw a lot of ironic circumstances, such as the boat we really

liked &
would have suited our needs; only to have the owner refuse to consider the

boats
actual condition & equipment instead of what he imagined it to be... six

months
later he sold the boat for less than our offer which he'd refused, after

paying
to have some of the stuff fixed that we'd balked at. Three of the boats we

made
offers on are still for sale. But we waded through a LOT of BS and
misrepresentation and unprofessional conduct by brokers, oh yes. It's a

wonder
that anybody actually buys boats at all.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King



  #9   Report Post  
Old November 30th 03, 10:34 PM
Kathy Mumma
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Chesapeake Bay Boat Buying" followup/Boat search update

We are just researching now and planning to buy next winter. But your post
brings up a question I have, if you don't mind.
Does the group think it is better/cheaper to buy from an owner privately; or
a broker? It seems the broker prices are more inflated and the boats carry
less equipment. Some seem stripped actually.
The privately owned boats better equipped?
I realize this is subjective of course. I imagine many will buy "up" to
larger boats and move equipment.
This will be first boat so this will be a large factor.
Any input welcome!
Thanks,
Kathy M.
"DSK" wrote in message
...


Skip Gundlach wrote:

..... despite all the hoo-ha of the
advertising, the info presented is wrong more often than it's right.

Case
in point is the Morgan I drove several hours to see, fighting car

troubles
all the way, which had stated that the walk-through was 6-4. I made the
irrational assumption that if the walk-through was that tall, likely the
rest of it was similar or better.

Imagine my irritation, since that was the *only* boat in that market,

and I
could have been 5 hours closer to home by not coming there, as it was

the
last boat on that trip, when the walk-through proved to be 6-1 at the

tall
end and 6-0 at the short end.


Should have handed the broker who gave you the bad info a bill for your

time. I
threatened to do this with several of the less-good brokers we tried to

deal
with when hunting for our last boat.


And just in case you haven't been paying attention, that's the second

boat
on which we've offered. The first was rejected, this was accepted...


Keep the faith. My wife and I made made offers on 6 and had 2 accepted,

only to
fall through, before we landed 'the one.'



Yes, we're going to buy a boat...


I used to say, "We *are* going to buy a boat, but we refuse to be sold a

boat."
A lot of brokers could not tell the difference.

We also saw a lot of ironic circumstances, such as the boat we really

liked &
would have suited our needs; only to have the owner refuse to consider the

boats
actual condition & equipment instead of what he imagined it to be... six

months
later he sold the boat for less than our offer which he'd refused, after

paying
to have some of the stuff fixed that we'd balked at. Three of the boats we

made
offers on are still for sale. But we waded through a LOT of BS and
misrepresentation and unprofessional conduct by brokers, oh yes. It's a

wonder
that anybody actually buys boats at all.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King



  #10   Report Post  
Old November 30th 03, 11:41 PM
Jere Lull
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Chesapeake Bay Boat Buying" followup/Boat search update

Kathy Mumma wrote:

We are just researching now and planning to buy next winter. But your post
brings up a question I have, if you don't mind.
Does the group think it is better/cheaper to buy from an owner privately; or
a broker? It seems the broker prices are more inflated and the boats carry
less equipment. Some seem stripped actually.
The privately owned boats better equipped?
I realize this is subjective of course. I imagine many will buy "up" to
larger boats and move equipment.
This will be first boat so this will be a large factor.
Any input welcome!
Thanks,
Kathy M.

Generally, we find that brokered boats are cleaner, with less junk lying
around. (There are exceptions; Xan was one.) Most of the extra stuff on
some boats is pretty much going to be replaced or tossed. It's sorta
cool at first to have some of the personal stuff onboard, but it
eventually finds its way to the trash bin. Even a lot of electronics and
other "useful" gear is often out of date or near its useful life. For
instance, I never found LORAN to be particularly useful even if the
previous owner (PO) used it regularly. Xan's old crystal-controlled VHF
was immediately replaced along with the depth and speed equipment which
seemed okay, but was pretty much DOA. On some boats, the various fabrics
on cushions and windows would have been the first to be replaced.

'Course, every boat, PO, and buyer is different. Often, an owner sells
privately because a broker recommended a lower value than they think
their baby is worth. Often a truly great deal is available via broker,
particularly if your first bid is appropriate for the actual market for
that boat.

Key to everything is your knowing about what a particular boat is
actually worth on the market. That requires a bit of research on your
part, but that is far easier these days than it was a decade ago.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



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