On 18 Nov 2003 13:28:04 -0000, Ante Topic Mimara
] wrote (with possible editing):

Skip Gundlach writes:

While it's apparent that you've got a very long learning
curve ahead of you (it seems you haven't any background
in boating so don't know what to specify), the other
responders haven't made your life simple.

You are correct when you believe I have no background
in boats, for I have never even stepped on one, except
for small open ones like 10-12 foot long boats, like
rowboats and such. Why it is so difficult to get clear
answers from people is not something which I understand!
I would have believed everyone would be stepping all over
themself to show me things to research, but not a lot of
this has this happened. I have read from several, of things
which I should go and read, but everyone uses this strange
new terminology and this jargon. Is there a good online
dictionary of yacht-language? If it is so, I should go and
use it, so that I can know these same terms.

The real problem is this: yachting is not as simple as buying a car.
Mistakes are usually costly, they can be and often are fatal. The
boat you want to buy is quite large for a beginner and the price you
want to pay is quite low which indicates you will almost certainly end
up with a lot of problems. If you had a bit more experience, it would
be easier to guide you, but then, you wouldn't need advice.

Most folks don't want to lead you towards what they believe will be
real problems. If you want the cold hard truth: you are WAY out of
your element. You should, instead, pursue one of these paths:

1. If you want a boat that large, you will have to pay
considerably more. In addition, you will need to hire a skipper or
someone to teach you how to handle a craft that size - you absolutely
cannot learn that in books. Also, I think you don't realize how
expensive marine repairs can be. In addition, without the benefit of
a survey, there could well be things wrong which endanger your life,
but you won't know until it's too late.

2. Start with something much smaller - I'd suggest low 20's
at the largest and learn how to handle it. You'll still need
instruction, but it would be MUCH easier to begin there. This also
gives you a chance to be sure this is something you and your wife will
enjoy.

I'm not a captain, but I was raised on the water and have owned and
crewed on both power and sail up to 40'. I consider myself a novice,
a journeyman sailer maybe, but I think I know my limitations. I'm
afraid you might easily learn yours the "hard" way and that is VERY
easy to do at sea.

Please don't get angry. I would have sent this to you privately if
your email were posted...
--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com

Skip Gundlach writes:

While it's apparent that you've got a very long learning
curve ahead of you (it seems you haven't any background
in boating so don't know what to specify), the other
responders haven't made your life simple.

You are correct when you believe I have no background
in boats, for I have never even stepped on one, except
for small open ones like 10-12 foot long boats, like
rowboats and such. Why it is so difficult to get clear
answers from people is not something which I understand!
I would have believed everyone would be stepping all over
themself to show me things to research, but not a lot of
this has this happened. I have read from several, of things
which I should go and read, but everyone uses this strange
new terminology and this jargon. Is there a good online
dictionary of yacht-language? If it is so, I should go and
use it, so that I can know these same terms.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...search_results.
jsp?sm=3&cit=true&slim=quick&ybw=null&is=&type=%28 Power%29&
man=&hmid=0&ftid=0&enid=0&fromLength=25&toLength=4 0&luom=126&
fromYear=&toYear=&fromPrice=&toPrice=11000&currenc yid=100&city=
&pbsint=&ps=100

is a URL for the search you want (you'll likely have to cut
and paste the lines unless it wraps when you click on it, to
get the full address). When you have narrowed down your
parameters, you can reduce the number of boats presented,
but for the moment, at least, there's 377 power boats from
25 to 40 feet at under 11,000 USD listed.

This website I have not seen before. I like it that I can put in
things I wish, such as length, price, and other information. But
there are things on it which I do not know, like on the section
where it asks for type of boat. What means terms like "cockpit"
or "sedan"? Is it not the place on top of the boat that you stand
when you steer that is the cockpit? And a sedan has 4 doors, on
a car, but on a boat?

When you dump the new boats with no prices, that number reduces.
When you dump the parts of the world you're unwilling to explore,
it reduces further. When you go from 'all power' to the various
(it allows you to select more than one category of power boat)
which are actually important to you, it further reduces. However,
there will still be lots to consider.

This actually shows me what a lot of these boats looks like, and
this is what I needed. I am appreciative of this from you. But,
it also causes problems for me, in that now I have more things to
know, that I do not know. Where do I go to educate myself about
these terms and things I do not know?

Once you've had a look at some of them, go back to the 'advanced
search' button (well, shaded area at the left of the page) and
refine this search.

I did try to do advanced search, and entering a low of $1.00, and
high of $11,000.00, with certain regions (east US coast) I find
some 231 boats with which I can start to search. Many of these
boats are much more than I expected to find, and some are beautiful!

I don't think you'll get any other than a very project boat in
your budget, but at least it's a place to start.

I did look at many of these boats, and there are plenty of ones
there that I can take a more serious look at them. There are a
few that are not ready to be in water, needing much repair. But
in all, I am very appreciative of your help by giving me a link!

Thank you!

FWIW, you can see some of the recent threads about my searching;
whether you agree with my methods, I can tell you that it will
produce lots of boats to consider...

I have read your strings, and your methods are very complex, but
I believe you will find what boat suits you, and one that you
want. If what you do works for you, then you go with it. You
obviously know more than I, and I salute you, for you are knowing
what you have to do to get what it is that you want.

Thank you for your very kind help. As another writer said, I am
so very sorry that this post is not shorter, as I did not have
time to make it less long.

---
-
Topic-Mimara
Unique in the World!
---


-=-
This message was posted via two or more anonymous remailing services.

Skip Gundlach writes:

While it's apparent that you've got a very long learning
curve ahead of you (it seems you haven't any background
in boating so don't know what to specify), the other
responders haven't made your life simple.

You are correct when you believe I have no background
in boats, for I have never even stepped on one, except
for small open ones like 10-12 foot long boats, like
rowboats and such. Why it is so difficult to get clear
answers from people is not something which I understand!
I would have believed everyone would be stepping all over
themself to show me things to research, but not a lot of
this has this happened. I have read from several, of things
which I should go and read, but everyone uses this strange
new terminology and this jargon. Is there a good online
dictionary of yacht-language? If it is so, I should go and
use it, so that I can know these same terms.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...search_results.
jsp?sm=3&cit=true&slim=quick&ybw=null&is=&type=%28 Power%29&
man=&hmid=0&ftid=0&enid=0&fromLength=25&toLength=4 0&luom=126&
fromYear=&toYear=&fromPrice=&toPrice=11000&currenc yid=100&city=
&pbsint=&ps=100

is a URL for the search you want (you'll likely have to cut
and paste the lines unless it wraps when you click on it, to
get the full address). When you have narrowed down your
parameters, you can reduce the number of boats presented,
but for the moment, at least, there's 377 power boats from
25 to 40 feet at under 11,000 USD listed.

This website I have not seen before. I like it that I can put in
things I wish, such as length, price, and other information. But
there are things on it which I do not know, like on the section
where it asks for type of boat. What means terms like "cockpit"
or "sedan"? Is it not the place on top of the boat that you stand
when you steer that is the cockpit? And a sedan has 4 doors, on
a car, but on a boat?

When you dump the new boats with no prices, that number reduces.
When you dump the parts of the world you're unwilling to explore,
it reduces further. When you go from 'all power' to the various
(it allows you to select more than one category of power boat)
which are actually important to you, it further reduces. However,
there will still be lots to consider.

This actually shows me what a lot of these boats looks like, and
this is what I needed. I am appreciative of this from you. But,
it also causes problems for me, in that now I have more things to
know, that I do not know. Where do I go to educate myself about
these terms and things I do not know?

Once you've had a look at some of them, go back to the 'advanced
search' button (well, shaded area at the left of the page) and
refine this search.

I did try to do advanced search, and entering a low of $1.00, and
high of $11,000.00, with certain regions (east US coast) I find
some 231 boats with which I can start to search. Many of these
boats are much more than I expected to find, and some are beautiful!

I don't think you'll get any other than a very project boat in
your budget, but at least it's a place to start.

I did look at many of these boats, and there are plenty of ones
there that I can take a more serious look at them. There are a
few that are not ready to be in water, needing much repair. But
in all, I am very appreciative of your help by giving me a link!

Thank you!

FWIW, you can see some of the recent threads about my searching;
whether you agree with my methods, I can tell you that it will
produce lots of boats to consider...

I have read your strings, and your methods are very complex, but
I believe you will find what boat suits you, and one that you
want. If what you do works for you, then you go with it. You
obviously know more than I, and I salute you, for you are knowing
what you have to do to get what it is that you want.

Thank you for your very kind help. As another writer said, I am
so very sorry that this post is not shorter, as I did not have
time to make it less long.

---
-
Topic-Mimara
Unique in the World!
---


-=-
This message was posted via two or more anonymous remailing services.

Larry,
I concur with you that his expectatins (hopes?) are unrealistic, but
think you may have emphasized a couple of points a little too harshly.

Mistakes are usually costly, they can be and often are fatal.

Mistakes are all too often VERY costly and while they sometimes are
fatal, they usually are not. Not to say that this possibility isn't
important, (after all who wants to die or kill family mambers through
making mistakes?), but to be more realistic, shouldn't you have
substituted the word "sometimes" for "often"?

1. If you want a boat that large, ... you will need to hire a skipper or
someone to teach you how to handle a craft that size - you absolutely
cannot learn that in books.

You're right that stepping directly from dry land into a 40 footer is
not an easy task, frought with personal and property danger, but since
many have done it to say "you absolutely cannot" is a bit of an
exageration.

Your advice to start with something smaller is spot on. Do this in
moderate steps (say 18'-25' then 30'-32' then 40' with at least a year
of very heavy use at each stage) and it can be done safely and with a
great deal of enjoyment. Do it in one giant step, and you endanger
yourself and others, both financially and personally.

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

Larry,
I concur with you that his expectatins (hopes?) are unrealistic, but
think you may have emphasized a couple of points a little too harshly.

Mistakes are usually costly, they can be and often are fatal.

Mistakes are all too often VERY costly and while they sometimes are
fatal, they usually are not. Not to say that this possibility isn't
important, (after all who wants to die or kill family mambers through
making mistakes?), but to be more realistic, shouldn't you have
substituted the word "sometimes" for "often"?

1. If you want a boat that large, ... you will need to hire a skipper or
someone to teach you how to handle a craft that size - you absolutely
cannot learn that in books.

You're right that stepping directly from dry land into a 40 footer is
not an easy task, frought with personal and property danger, but since
many have done it to say "you absolutely cannot" is a bit of an
exageration.

Your advice to start with something smaller is spot on. Do this in
moderate steps (say 18'-25' then 30'-32' then 40' with at least a year
of very heavy use at each stage) and it can be done safely and with a
great deal of enjoyment. Do it in one giant step, and you endanger
yourself and others, both financially and personally.

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

Greetings, nomail,

"Paul" wrote in message
le.rogers.com...
I think it should be emphasized that this is a list of project boats.

Not necessarily. While it wasn't a stern cabin boat, my two-doors-down
neighbor spent two years fully restoring a Chris Craft - A Marinette, if
memory serves me. In any case, whichever model of old CC it was, it was
totally bristol, including the newly remanufactured Corvette engine with
probably not more than 100 hours he'd put on it after installation. This
one wasn't an aft cabin, but he sold it for $7500 when he bought his newer,
bigger, boat. It didn't take more than a couple of days in the local boat
trader, and it was gone - put on a trailer and hauled off to wherever the
new owner was going to enjoy it.

This boat needed *nothing* other than a full tank of gasoline and whatever
food you might want to take aboard.

Seek and ye shall find...

L8R

Skip

Greetings, nomail,

"Paul" wrote in message
le.rogers.com...
I think it should be emphasized that this is a list of project boats.

Not necessarily. While it wasn't a stern cabin boat, my two-doors-down
neighbor spent two years fully restoring a Chris Craft - A Marinette, if
memory serves me. In any case, whichever model of old CC it was, it was
totally bristol, including the newly remanufactured Corvette engine with
probably not more than 100 hours he'd put on it after installation. This
one wasn't an aft cabin, but he sold it for $7500 when he bought his newer,
bigger, boat. It didn't take more than a couple of days in the local boat
trader, and it was gone - put on a trailer and hauled off to wherever the
new owner was going to enjoy it.

This boat needed *nothing* other than a full tank of gasoline and whatever
food you might want to take aboard.

Seek and ye shall find...

L8R

Skip

Paul stepped up to the mike, and delivered this of himself:
]
]I think it should be emphasized that this is a list of project
]boats.

And you get this idea where? What is it with you people? You all
are acting like you're guarding the secrets of the freaking
universe, when all this Topic-Mimara guy wants is someone to
help him figure out what he wants! Geez, its a freaking boat
for crying out loud! How you all can overcomplicate it the way
you have, is beyond me. He's not asking for an advanced course
on celestial navigation. He said it himself: He wants a boat he
can put on a river, and take out to the ocean once in a while.
It isn't like he said he's intending to circumnavigate the earth.

]The original poster stated that he did not want a project
]boat and it certainly appears that between his eagerness,
]lack of experience and unfamiliarity with the language that
]he might not readily grasp what these boats might entail.

And neither you, nor anyone else can be bothered to get off your
lazy behinds (or high-horses) and give the man some help. How
convenient for you that you can spout your self-righteous spew
in his direction, without helping him at all. Where I come from,
we all help the other denizens of our marina. We don't treat the
newcomers to the slips this way. If you see that he doesn't have
any experience, then why can't you ask some simple questions to
find out what he actually wants to know? If you see that he doesn't
have familiarity with the language, then why can't you be bothered
to explain it to him in terms he can understand? If you see that he
might not have a grasp of what it entails, why can't you be bothered
to explain it to him, and help him find out what he is trying to
ask? Is that too much for you?

]Sorry, I realize I'm guilty of yet again not making his life
]simple but I don't see a "simple" in here.

That's because you're too lazy, and too self-righteous to ask
some simple questions. And yes, you're guilty all right. You're
guilty of attempting to discourage someone from getting into
the boating scene, while you try to look like you're trying not
to be discouraging. Quite the dancing act you've got going. Maybe
you should sell tickets.

I see a "simple" here. I see that it's a simple matter of asking
some questions to get to the root of what the man is trying to
say. I can see that he doesn't handle the King's English very
well, I can see that he has no boating experience. I can also see
that almost nobody else has bothered to ask the man about what he
really wants to do. Maybe he just wants a marina Queen. Maybe he
only wants a boat he can fix up, and invite some friends over to
have a drink at the marina. Maybe he only wants what he said he
wanted, but needs someone to expose him to the boating culture and
the accepted "jargon" so he can learn things the right way. He's
right about one thing though. All you people have been throwing
jargon his way, with not one explanation.

]He wants a ready to go boat from 25-40' for a max of 11k.

And there are two of them, within 5 slips of my boat that fit
his requirements. I went and asked about them yesterday. One
of them is 32' and needs new ignition wiring on one of the engines,
and the other is 30' and needs new props. They need some cleaning,
painting, and perhaps some minor maintenance, and then they would
be ready to go. And both are within a few hundred bucks of 10K.

]There will be plenty of brokers eager to push their own list
]of clapped out boats on him and sell him on the beauty a life
]on the water. I don't think we need to do their job for them.

No, you're being far too supercilious in exuding your
holier-than-thou attitude, to make it easier for you to discourage
the guy, instead of trying to help him. This guy doesn't need a
broker yet. He needs someone to ask him questions, to find out what
he really wants, expects, and can do. Then he can get some help
by finding out what he really needs to learn and know, before he
gets
to the point where he's spending money. I'd bet he's getting ready
to just give up the whole idea of getting a boat, just because a
bunch of stuck-up folks here have not been helpful. I wouldn't blame
him a bit, either. If this were what I got, when I wanted my first
boat, I would have quit too.

Topic-Mimara:

You drop me an email at aegis365 (at) hotmail (dot) com and I'll
be happy to give you all the answers to every question you can
come up with. I've been boating for over thirty years, and I have
never seen a bunch of people less willing to help newcomers than
I have seen here. If you can, come on down to Savannah, and I'll
show you some good old fashioned Southern Hospitality too.

---
-
Those who complain about others not being "team players"
are the same ones who never give up the ball.
-----

Paul stepped up to the mike, and delivered this of himself:
]
]I think it should be emphasized that this is a list of project
]boats.

And you get this idea where? What is it with you people? You all
are acting like you're guarding the secrets of the freaking
universe, when all this Topic-Mimara guy wants is someone to
help him figure out what he wants! Geez, its a freaking boat
for crying out loud! How you all can overcomplicate it the way
you have, is beyond me. He's not asking for an advanced course
on celestial navigation. He said it himself: He wants a boat he
can put on a river, and take out to the ocean once in a while.
It isn't like he said he's intending to circumnavigate the earth.

]The original poster stated that he did not want a project
]boat and it certainly appears that between his eagerness,
]lack of experience and unfamiliarity with the language that
]he might not readily grasp what these boats might entail.

And neither you, nor anyone else can be bothered to get off your
lazy behinds (or high-horses) and give the man some help. How
convenient for you that you can spout your self-righteous spew
in his direction, without helping him at all. Where I come from,
we all help the other denizens of our marina. We don't treat the
newcomers to the slips this way. If you see that he doesn't have
any experience, then why can't you ask some simple questions to
find out what he actually wants to know? If you see that he doesn't
have familiarity with the language, then why can't you be bothered
to explain it to him in terms he can understand? If you see that he
might not have a grasp of what it entails, why can't you be bothered
to explain it to him, and help him find out what he is trying to
ask? Is that too much for you?

]Sorry, I realize I'm guilty of yet again not making his life
]simple but I don't see a "simple" in here.

That's because you're too lazy, and too self-righteous to ask
some simple questions. And yes, you're guilty all right. You're
guilty of attempting to discourage someone from getting into
the boating scene, while you try to look like you're trying not
to be discouraging. Quite the dancing act you've got going. Maybe
you should sell tickets.

I see a "simple" here. I see that it's a simple matter of asking
some questions to get to the root of what the man is trying to
say. I can see that he doesn't handle the King's English very
well, I can see that he has no boating experience. I can also see
that almost nobody else has bothered to ask the man about what he
really wants to do. Maybe he just wants a marina Queen. Maybe he
only wants a boat he can fix up, and invite some friends over to
have a drink at the marina. Maybe he only wants what he said he
wanted, but needs someone to expose him to the boating culture and
the accepted "jargon" so he can learn things the right way. He's
right about one thing though. All you people have been throwing
jargon his way, with not one explanation.

]He wants a ready to go boat from 25-40' for a max of 11k.

And there are two of them, within 5 slips of my boat that fit
his requirements. I went and asked about them yesterday. One
of them is 32' and needs new ignition wiring on one of the engines,
and the other is 30' and needs new props. They need some cleaning,
painting, and perhaps some minor maintenance, and then they would
be ready to go. And both are within a few hundred bucks of 10K.

]There will be plenty of brokers eager to push their own list
]of clapped out boats on him and sell him on the beauty a life
]on the water. I don't think we need to do their job for them.

No, you're being far too supercilious in exuding your
holier-than-thou attitude, to make it easier for you to discourage
the guy, instead of trying to help him. This guy doesn't need a
broker yet. He needs someone to ask him questions, to find out what
he really wants, expects, and can do. Then he can get some help
by finding out what he really needs to learn and know, before he
gets
to the point where he's spending money. I'd bet he's getting ready
to just give up the whole idea of getting a boat, just because a
bunch of stuck-up folks here have not been helpful. I wouldn't blame
him a bit, either. If this were what I got, when I wanted my first
boat, I would have quit too.

Topic-Mimara:

You drop me an email at aegis365 (at) hotmail (dot) com and I'll
be happy to give you all the answers to every question you can
come up with. I've been boating for over thirty years, and I have
never seen a bunch of people less willing to help newcomers than
I have seen here. If you can, come on down to Savannah, and I'll
show you some good old fashioned Southern Hospitality too.

---
-
Those who complain about others not being "team players"
are the same ones who never give up the ball.
-----

Skip

Could you drop me a private email?

Leanne