On 2007-05-24 18:25:20 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et...

wrote in message
oups.com...
...
Ya, I saw a lot of multiple-posts in the past few days. Actually, though, I
was referring to the marketing hype of North Sails 3DL process. I had no
idea.

It may not be all marketing. In the nasty fight over the airframe
patent North claimed that their sails were different because the yarns
were continuous (http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5097784). So
they might be worried about infringing on
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT4593639 when the sails are
re-cut. Be that as it may, North makes very, very good sails and I
think you are right about the low stretch making the square tops
workable.

-- Tom.

I have North sails on Escapade, but they're dacron cruising sails.
Don't know that I would want the mylar ones if they were given to me.


Smart thinking. Dacron sails for cruising is the correct choice all
things considered. Nothing looks stupider than a cruising boat with
expensive, prone to failure, high maintenance racing sails.

The people who attempt to show how cool they are by using hi-tech
racing sails on a cruising boat are the same people who put those
spinning hubcaps on their KIAs. No class.
Fewer brains.

Xan (below) is a fast cruiser and she has Dacron and nylon from North
at the moment, but SHE would love to have a set of 3DL sails onboard.
With good sails, we sail quite a bit more, and get further when we do
(BTW, I don't believe the newest sails are mylar now, but carbon fiber
and other advanced materials.)

Recent advancements seem to be getting near to being better and more
durable than Dacron for the long haul. If nothing else, having to put
sacrificial material on a Dacron foresail significantly hurts sail
shape and performance.

Last year, we got a new 110 for higher winds and intentionally skipped
the foam/rope luff and sacrificial strip. Last week, we finallly got a
chance to use that sail in real-world conditions: small craft
advisories for most of the week, and the wind was in our face whenever
we moved. The sail made a notable, measurable difference.

I can easily see that sails of even more advanced materials will drive
boats easier and faster. The problem to date has been durability, but
it seems they're getting closer to making sail materials even more
durable than Dacron. I have a strong suspicion that the next new sail
for Xan will not be Dacron.

In other words, I think we're in about the same place sailors were when
Dacron was introduced. Many didn't think that exotic material had any
place onboard.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

....
(BTW, I don't believe the newest sails are mylar now, but carbon fiber
and other advanced materials.) ...

Most of the "new" engineered sail fabrics still include mylar. It
serves much the same function as chopped strand mat in hull
construction. That is, it provides a nice smooth gluing surface with
omni-directional strength. There are some sail fabrics constructed
from low stretch fibers in a more or less traditional way (eg. I've
got a couple of jibs made from woven spectra fabric) that don't need
mylar but they don't use the fibers as well as laminated fabrics do.
I think you are right that the load bearing fiber of choice in the AC
this time around is carbon (which is what makes the sails black) but
they are still using mylar to keep the carbon in place. Laminated
cruising sails typically protect the mylar with dacron or spectra
taffetas. My experience with sails made with a dacron/mylar/pentax/
dacron sandwich has been very good. I've got a six year old mainsail
that has taken me all over the Pacific that is still holding up very
well. I've also got two jibs made from the same stuff that are in
very good condition. I actually delayed going to headsail roller
furling for two years because I couldn't bear to take them out of
service while they looked so good...

-- Tom.

On 2007-06-17 12:14:49 -0400, Jere Lull said:

In other words, I think we're in about the same place sailors were when
Dacron was introduced. Many didn't think that exotic material had any
place onboard.

Wow! Took 5 months for this one to show up!

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:12:45 -0500, Gogarty
wrote:

lo and behold! up pops Maltese Falcon, which is a square rigged ship, i.e.,
three masts with square sails on all three. A very interesting rig, but
very retro and also very fast.

I think it was clipper ship Flying Cloud that did more than 400 miles
in 24 hours. I call that fast. Only thing wrong with a square rig is
that they don't go to windward all that well.

Casady

In article , Richard Casady
wrote:


I think it was clipper ship Flying Cloud that did more than 400 miles
in 24 hours. I call that fast. Only thing wrong with a square rig is
that they don't go to windward all that well.

Casady

...... and the best way to tack them is to 'wear' them around a 270 ...
NO THANK YOU.

Rich Hampel wrote:

In article , Richard Casady
wrote:



I think it was clipper ship Flying Cloud that did more than 400 miles
in 24 hours. I call that fast. Only thing wrong with a square rig is
that they don't go to windward all that well.

Casady


..... and the best way to tack them is to 'wear' them around a 270 ...
NO THANK YOU.


No, that's Wearing - not Tacking.

There is a nice Power Point presentation on the Elissa group.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elissa1877/files/

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:15:04 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:12:45 -0500, Gogarty
wrote:

lo and behold! up pops Maltese Falcon, which is a square rigged ship, i.e.,
three masts with square sails on all three. A very interesting rig, but
very retro and also very fast.

I think it was clipper ship Flying Cloud that did more than 400 miles
in 24 hours. I call that fast. Only thing wrong with a square rig is
that they don't go to windward all that well.

Casady


Quite a lot of interesting information at
http://www.eraoftheclipperships.com/

regarding these ships and their histories.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(Note:remove underscores
from address for reply)

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:15:04 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:12:45 -0500, Gogarty
wrote:

lo and behold! up pops Maltese Falcon, which is a square rigged ship, i.e.,
three masts with square sails on all three. A very interesting rig, but
very retro and also very fast.

I think it was clipper ship Flying Cloud that did more than 400 miles
in 24 hours. I call that fast. Only thing wrong with a square rig is
that they don't go to windward all that well.

Casady

I think that most of the commercial ships, like Flying Cloud, sailed
primarily downwind nearly all the time. Out east in one season and
back home the next. I even had a chart of power and sailing routes
with the routes marked by seasons.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(Note:remove underscores
from address for reply)

On 2007-06-17 14:52:52 -0400, " said:

My experience with sails made with a dacron/mylar/pentax/dacron
sandwich has been very good. I've got a six year old mainsail that has
taken me all over the Pacific that is still holding up very well.
I've also got two jibs made from the same stuff that are in very good
condition. I actually delayed going to headsail roller furling for two
years because I couldn't bear to take them out of service while they
looked so good...

That sounds about what I was remembering, and about the time period
when I was looking.

Thanks for the report. It's the first I've heard from someone actually
cruising with them. Every other report to date has been more-or-less
advertisement or coastal sailors.

Couple of questions for you and anyone else with actual long-distance
experience?
Do they need that sacrificial strip?
Any quirks?
How heavy are they compared to Dacron?

Xan's a "fast cruiser" who *really* likes high quality (aka "racing")
sails that can be properly shaped, but I was leery from the reports of
the low durability I'd heard a decade or so ago, delamination and
mildew between the plies.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On 2007-12-04 08:12:45 -0500, Gogarty said:

But now that I have your attention: the discussion at the time was
about the increasngly four-sided shape of the latest America's Cup
sails and how it was possible to keep the top of the sail in line with
the bottom. I opined then that it looks like we are going back to the
square sail.

Oh, gawd, that's so *not* a square sail shape! More like an airplane
wing on end -- which they pretty much are.

There's about no laminar flow on a square sail.

Then, lo and behold! up pops Maltese Falcon, which is a square rigged
ship, i.e., three masts with square sails on all three. A very
interesting rig, but very retro and also very fast.

Funny, reminds me more of a junk rig.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/