You need to look at the underlying act, not just the CFR. Look at
Section 312 of the Federal Water Pollution Control Act (33 U.S.C. 1322),
under marine sanitation devices. It states, in part:

(6) ‘‘sewage’’ means **human body wastes and** emphasis added the
wastes from toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain
body wastes except that, with respect to commercial vessels on
the Great Lakes, such term shall include graywater;

From the same section:

(9) ‘‘discharge’’ includes, but is not limited to, any spilling,
leaking, pumping, pouring, **emitting** emphasis added, emptying or
dumping;

It's clear from the underlying act that human wastes, contained in
non-biological containers or not, are "sewage", and cannot legally be
discharged untreated. I'll happily bow to Peggie's greater knowledge
regarding enforcement, but it seems clear that hanging your butt over
the rail in the marina isn't legal.

Keith Hughes


Dave wrote:

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:41:15 -0700, Keith Hughes
said:


Interesting. Seems like that would still allow for a lot of "local
discretion" however.


Not a bit. The regulations say you must secure the device to prevent
discharge. They do not say you must secure your ass to prevent discharge.
You can look it up.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text... .5.27.1.179.3

Maybe you should learn how to think in a logical manner before jumping
in with snide comments in a heretofore friendly discussion. The legal
obligations relate to discharge of untreated wastes and sewage, yes? The
definitions tell you what constitutes "sewage" and what constitutes
"discharge". Human waste *is* sewage. Which part of that is unclear?

Keith Hughes

Dave wrote:

And you apparently need to learn how to read. Those are definitions.
Definitions do not in and of themselves create legal obligations. I'll stand
by my prior post.



On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:11:33 -0700, Keith Hughes
said:


You need to look at the underlying act, not just the CFR. Look at
Section 312 of the Federal Water Pollution Control Act (33 U.S.C. 1322),
under marine sanitation devices. It states, in part:

(6) ‘‘sewage’’ means **human body wastes and** emphasis added the
wastes from toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain
body wastes except that, with respect to commercial vessels on
the Great Lakes, such term shall include graywater;

From the same section:

(9) ‘‘discharge’’ includes, but is not limited to, any spilling,
leaking, pumping, pouring, **emitting** emphasis added, emptying or
dumping;

It's clear from the underlying act that human wastes, contained in
non-biological containers or not, are "sewage", and cannot legally be
discharged untreated. I'll happily bow to Peggie's greater knowledge
regarding enforcement, but it seems clear that hanging your butt over
the rail in the marina isn't legal.

"Keith Hughes" wrote in message
...
"local discretion"

Local excretion?

On Feb 14, 1:42 pm, Larry wrote:

Where did you see a figure about 6 billion sailors crapping over the side??
I'd think it nearer 20,000, tops, but only on Saturday.

Therein lies the problem. I'm all for no discharge zones (with Pump-A-
Heads available), pilling, ticketing, et.al. A crap or two is almost
not a problem, but look what happened to Avalon Bay. A *lot* of boats
in a non-flushing bay, with all merrily crapping away, is a public
health concern. It's like crapping behind the bushes in public parks.

Same goes for marinas in calm backbays. There might be 200 people in
the marina my boat's in, drinkin' barbecuin' and sunburnin', on a nice
day. If they were all and ****in' and crappin' overboard, it'd
literally stink on a calm day.

Peggie's assesment of the legalities of hangin' it over the side vs. a
"device" isn't the crux of the matter, don't be "discharging" in no
discharge zones. Just because it's unenforceable (BTW, what's done
with the toilet paper?) doesn't mean it's not good manners. One of
public health's greatest victories is our sanitation infrastructure;
let's not backslide.

Three miles out, fire away, and it's just not that big of a deal to
arrange to not crap in zones. There's shoreside facilities a row or
hoof nearby, or it's a transient situation. Not to start another
debate, but I think Lectro-San systems are OK too; it's ground up and
sterilized; better than most treatment plants in Mexico.

The million whales problem is a dodge, swimming around in *human*
waste makes one orders of magnitude more at risk for a serious disease
compared to fish poop (although high concentrations of that is a bit
icky too).

"Mark" wrote in news:1171855078.467553.322710
@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

The million whales problem is a dodge, swimming around in *human*
waste makes one orders of magnitude more at risk for a serious disease
compared to fish poop (although high concentrations of that is a bit
icky too).


I don't believe that's quite correct. Human waste isn't any more toxic
than any other animal's waste and is 100% recycled by lower life forms in
water or on land. Human waste is just as sanitary as YOU are! Human
urine, I've read, is totally sanitary, too. During sex, millions drink
it and don't die or get sick...just exhausted..(c; We've been
brainwashed for thousands of years that humans are something special,
different from all the other planet inhabitants. It's simply not true.
STORED human waste BECOMES toxic, spoiled for consumption by the
scavengers. TREATED human waste is the REAL problem, here. We turn
recyclable human waste into a toxic chemical soup full of formaldehyde or
some new exotic replacement for formaldehyde so it doesn't stink or decay
with a half-life of a thousand years. We dump genetically-engineered
bacteria that are so tough they can't be killed into it! THAT is what's
wasting the planet...in the name of money, of course.

I was raised in a tiny town in upstate NY, the first 18 years until I
joined the Navy. Our human waste dumped straight into a cesspool, a huge
pit in the gravel behind our house lined with concrete blocks to keep it
from caving in. Not once was that pit ever pumped out or overflowing.
Life forms in the ground consumed what was in that pit. One of its real
benefits was the HUGE earthworms for fishing, all fat and happy campers,
that were dug up in the garden right around where that pit was located.
Earthworms ARE one of the recyclers. I used to dig 'em up and sell 'em
to my grandfather's fishing buddies by the thousands. For many years,
our part of the little town didn't have town water lines. Everyone had a
drilled well a few hundred feet deep into the aquifer....not far from
everyone's cesspool. THAT water was CLEANER than the runoff water
delivered to the taps in town. That all changed when government
bureaucrats showed up in all the towns in the valley and wasted hundreds
of millions of dollars turning our recyclable waste into treated sewage,
then dumping that in the inlet to Owasco Lake. Today, with all this
treated sewage soup, Owasco Lake went from water we drank, DIRECTLY, over
the side of everyone's fishing boat, to a new cesspool with huge algae
blooms, dead fish kills, all that city crap. They ruined it. No fish
died from all the cesspools behind all the lakefront cottages that had
been under the outhouses 100' from the lake for centuries. Why?

http://www.hws.edu/news/update/showw...webclipid=2742
"Dave VanArsdale remembers spending his summers fishing on Owasco Lake
when the water was so clear he could see the fish and the bottom of the
lake.

Today, VanArsdale, a property owner on Owasco Lake in Fleming for 42
years, can see no more than three feet into the lake now overflowing with
weeds and algae.

Owasco Lake is in the worst condition of the Finger Lakes, said John
Halfman, director of environmental studies at Hobart and William Smith
Colleges, at a meeting planned by state Sen. Michael Nozzolio at Emerson
Park Thursday night."

42 years ago, I was DRINKING Owasco Lake water when everyone had
cesspools and recycled waste. Now they're trying to explain away the
STUPIDITY of turning Moravia, Locke and Groton waste into chemical soup
and dumping it in the lake. These towns have NOT changed population in a
hundred years! They are the ONLY sewage plants dumping into the lake!
Stupid asses....

Sit on a conveniently placed log in the woods. Take a dump. Come back
in a month. It's GONE!...CONSUMED by the recyclers from bacteria to
insects to comedian Ron White's dog. Sure makes some beetles really
happy. Don't store it in a bucket until it spoils. Don't bury it to
hide it from them. Humans have been crapping in the woods for millions
of years (a couple of thousands for you devout Christians). Just like
the lakes should be 3" deep in motor oil from the 2-stroke engines that
have been running all over them for the last 100 years, the woods should
be knee deep in human waste. Neither is true!

Think human waste is special? You need to spend a day in a DAIRY BARN
shoveling what comes out of the COWS! My grandfather raised huge, prize
Holsteins, where that really sweet milk you love comes from. Been there,
done that, got ****ed on a lot....and didn't die!....and ALL of it was
spread over the fields making the hay rich and lush all summer.

Japanese farmers, smarter than us, COLLECT human waste that hasn't
spoiled and spread it over their rice plantations because it's some of
the finest fertilizer on the planet....that DOESN'T pollute groundwater
like what comes out of a Monsanto does. They've been doing it for
thousands of years! (Monsantos are big, ugly monsters.)


Do warn the swimmers downstream, however...(c; Sometimes it floats and
they always scream if they are not warned, teen girls especially. It's
also, probably, best to wait until the diver cleaning the hull is
finished. You can hold it that long.

Larry
--
Vista has been out a week.
Is Service Pack 1 ready yet?

On Feb 18, 9:17 pm, "Mark" wrote:


Therein lies the problem. I'm all for no discharge zones (with Pump-A-
Heads available), pilling, ticketing, et.al.

Do you even know what a "no discharge" zone is? Dumping raw sewage
within 3 miles of shore has been illegal for years. These "no
discharge" zones only mean that you can't use a type I or II unit,
which treats waste better than a municipal sewer plant before it
discharges it. What's the logic behind making a no discharge zone?
Instead of using a LectraSan, you have to put it in a holding tank and
pump it to a sewer plant, which won't treat it as well, and will dump
tons of raw sewage into the waterways every time there's a heavy rain.
That's one of the big problems with these "no discharge" zones... very
few people understand them or what they mean, much less the actualy
effects.

Here's a good article on how much water pollution critters generate.
Maybe they should declare open season on geese!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?nav=hcmodule