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#11
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Interesting Lead Acid Battery facts
"purple_stars" wrote in
oups.com: Do they last that long ? I have my doubts. In fact, I'm starting to think that the best way to go is to just find a supplier of the cheapest thick plate lead acid battery you can find and buy your banks there with the intention of replacing them all after 3 or 4 years. Of course not. With AGM batteries there's no way of measuring their condition in the acid-soaked gauze wrapping. You can't replace lost electrolye water from the charging so you're stuck, eventually, with dried out gauze and no juice. The price is a pure ripoff....it's a "boat battery", right? It's supposed to be 8 times higher. Boaters are rich, right, and don't care what they pay for real quality in a pretty red plastic case....right? -- http://www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/verichip.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VeriChip http://www.verichipcorp.com/ Tracked like a dog, every license/product/tax. Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name... |
#12
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Interesting Lead Acid Battery facts
Larry wrote:
[snip] I remoted the charger's AC plug to under the trailer hitch to make connecting it as easy an painless as possible. The batteries went from lasting a year and a half to five and a half years, same batteries, same manufacturer....lots less unrecoverable sulphation. Boats that have a little charger plugged into the dock and water their batteries with DISTILLED ONLY get that gravity back up after the abuse of dreaming you're going to charge them at 50A for 30 minutes on the engine at sea. Same effect....charging happens very SLOWLY OVER TIME. That's a very good thought, Larry. And I suspect you are right about it, that you can make the batteries last longer by plugging them into shore power. You could probably make them last longer by having them hooked to a wind generator and/or solar panel too since they would be getting constant recharge current and would spend their lives more charged than more discharged. As far as I am concerned that only makes more of a case for using really cheap ass batteries from a mega-store ... because those AGM batteries are 4.5 times as expensive for the same number of amp hours, so if you can get 5 years, or 8 years, or whatever out of a lead-acid deep cycle, you're looking at 20 years, or 30 years that you'd have to get out of AGM's to get the same cost/benefit. I would be interested in anyone's experience with using batteries that you can remove the plates from, has anyone used any like that ? I assume they exist. The idea being to take the plates out every few years and get some kind of a solvent, or I don't know .. a toothbrush I guess, and scrub the plates clean. I'm sure they wouldn't advertise that "feature" since it would no doubt get environmentalist feathers ruffled if people did that out in their driveway or something. I'd like to know about it though. Sure, it might take off a little plating material, but who cares if the plates are thick ? I wish I had the problem of using deep cycle batteries so long that the plating material wears thin, that would be a dream come true. |
#13
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Interesting Lead Acid Battery facts
"Larry" wrote in message ... "roger lothoz" wrote in : Because all of us would not have enough time in our life to experiment all brands of batteries available on the market place. I would suggest to express individual experiences. Would it be a good idea? AS there is really no difference in the CHEMISTRY of the lead-acid battery, does it really make any difference who makes the same ol' technology we've always used? I think not. Sales hype and outrageous pricing doesn't change chemistry, much....not that much. I may come to regret the decision, but I have decided that, this spring, Escapade will be outfitted with a Rolls 12MD-375M battery. Should a single cell fail (unlikely), I can replace that cell. With proper maintenance, I can expect a minimum of 10 years service, and as much as 20. It's warrantied for at least 7 years. And its modular construction makes it so much easier for me to install and/or remove for winter lay-up. There's much more to battery construction than just chemistry. Karin |
#14
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Interesting Lead Acid Battery facts
"KLC Lewis" wrote in
et: There's much more to battery construction than just chemistry. I'll bite......Name them. Besides Lead and water and sulfuric acid, there's plastic and rubber. What did I miss?? Lead-Acid batteries are good for about 300 cycles of no more than 50% discharge of capacity. I sure hope you don't depend on them lasting 20 years. Are you talking about the Series 5000 3-year-warranty? "Failure within 36 months from the date placed in service yields FREE REPLACEMENT, not including freight charges from the factory to the applicable destination. After the first 36 months of service, defective batteries will be adjusted for a period of up to 120 months prorated from the date first in service at prices in effect at time of adjustment." I don't see any 10 year warranty, here. 36 months...same as Interstate for how-many-times as much money? Oh, it also says: "To claim a manufacturing warranty, proof of purchase must be presented, showing the date of purchase and the battery's serial number. The battery must be tested by an Authorized Battery Outlet for actual defect, and upon confirmation of the defect, the warranty will be administered. The Warranty does not cover shipping damage, cracked covers, cracked cases, bulged cases from heat, freezing or explosion, discharged batteries, the use of undersized batteries damaged from electrical equipment. This warranty covers only manufacturing defects. The Company makes no warranty with respect to its batteries other than the warranty stated above. All implied warranties of merchantability and all expressed and implied warranties of any other kind are hereby excluded." Notice how it carefully says it doesn't cover "discharged batteries"? So, if I ship 'em a dead battery, that's not covered under the warranty?? If the battery weren't dead, why would I ship it to them in the first place?? "This warranty covers ONLY manufacturing defects." In other words, it doesn't cover sulphation, refusal to stay charged, reduced AH capacity, or anything related to a 500AH battery that only has 100AH of capacity left next year....That's what it says. Who's the "Authorized Battery Outlet" that going to do the testing for the "actual defect" in, say, Belize or Acapulco, if it croaks while we're cruising? "upon confirmation of the DEFECT, the warranty will be administered." What if I don't find a Rolls "Authorized Battery Outlet" in Belize? What if he refuses to come to the boat for "testing"? What will he charge for that? I doubt, "Hello, Rolls? I'm in Belize and the damned thing won't stay charged until morning! I paid $1250 for this thing 2 years and 10 months ago. Send me another one!", is gonna make it happen. Do you? If you think Rolls is going to send you another $800 battery in 2010 when yours is worn out, you are in for a shock! I must admit, however, the red plastic will look more impressive in the lazerette than the golf cart batteries.....(c; I also wanna know what those bolts that hold the cells together in that acid bath are made out of, inside the pretty case. The ears must be lead. Are the bolts lead, too? Anything else just makes another battery with the ears. Don't they rust solid in a year or two? Anyone have corrosion problems between cells where the plates meet under the bolts? |
#15
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Interesting Lead Acid Battery facts
"purple_stars" wrote in
oups.com: That's a very good thought, Larry. And I suspect you are right about it, that you can make the batteries last longer by plugging them into shore power. You could probably make them last longer by having them hooked to a wind generator and/or solar panel too since they would be getting constant recharge current and would spend their lives more charged than more discharged. As far as I am concerned that only makes more of a case for using really cheap ass batteries from a mega-store .. because those AGM batteries are 4.5 times as expensive for the same number of amp hours, so if you can get 5 years, or 8 years, or whatever out of a lead-acid deep cycle, you're looking at 20 years, or 30 years that you'd have to get out of AGM's to get the same cost/benefit. You don't want to "constant recharge" them all the time! That will only lead to electrolyte loss as the water is converted to hydrogen, leaving concentrated sulphuric eating the bottoms off the plates still submerged....not good! The shore charger needs to charge until it reaches 14.2, then completely shut down and just sit there until the voltage drops to around 13 to 13.2, when it cycles on again for a BRIEF period at LOW current....not percolate them to death...(c; My answer to the Rolls buyer is in another post. The warranty on the 5000 (best-the-gots) is only 3 years and ONLY for MANUFACTURING DEFECTS, not for worn out cells. If there's a manufacturing defect, it's easy to spot....acid leaking out into the bilge rotting the bilge pumps or the ensuing explosion when the plates shorted out. NOONE's warranty covers ANYTHING about how long it takes them to WEAR OUT! WEAR OUT simply isn't covered by any battery warranty! I would be interested in anyone's experience with using batteries that you can remove the plates from, has anyone used any like that ? I assume they exist. The idea being to take the plates out every few years and get some kind of a solvent, or I don't know .. a toothbrush I guess, and scrub the plates clean. I'm sure they wouldn't advertise that "feature" since it would no doubt get environmentalist feathers ruffled if people did that out in their driveway or something. I'd like to know about it though. Sure, it might take off a little plating material, but who cares if the plates are thick ? I wish I had the problem of using deep cycle batteries so long that the plating material wears thin, that would be a dream come true. The $89 golf cart batteries have replaceable cells....3 at a time....(c; A 6V golf cart battery costs, I'm guessing because there is NO MENTION OF PRICE on Rolls' website, whatsoever, so the dealers can rip 'em off....I'd guess ONE Rolls cell is easily more money than THREE golf cart cells....and NO SHIPPING FROM NOVA SCOTIA to pay for, which ISN'T covered, either! As usual, we don't read the fine print on the warranty page....which is buried, conveniently, in the "Site Map" tab of Rolls' webpage. There's no tab for SUPPORT or SERVICE or WARRANTY up front. Coincidence?? It certainly is curious, at least. I just wish WALMART had big golf cart batteries, without having to go to the bogus Sam's Club and "pay to go shopping with us", which is stupid. I haven't asked them if they could order them and how much. I only buy car tires from WalMart, any more, after an incident in Florida. My Goodyear tire came apart and I didn't have all my "papers" for it from 3 years ago from WalMart. Finding a Walmart was easy...sometimes you have to stand on the hood, but it's close. I took the tire to WalMart at Daytona Beach and told them I bought it in Charleston. "Not a problem. What's your phone number?", she asked. My record popped up with my lifetime $6.94 warranty. "Did you want us to rotate and balance them all, too? It's been quite a few miles. It's free." I was in a hurry so declined. The kid put the car on the lift and put a brand new Goodyear tire on my rim. "Sir, your car is ready.", she smiles. I pull out my credit card to pay and she says, "Oh, there's no charge. You have the Walmart lifetime warranty.", as she hands me my keys....280 miles from home. Make fun of Wally if you must, but that's pretty hard to beat...no papers, no hassles, no arguing... I hope all the tires tear up before the tread wears out. I'll never have to buy tires again! I also don't use Amsoil Synthetic over Shell Rotella T dino oil, either. One of my cars is a 1973 Mercedes 220 Diesel. We can be in California across the country in a week or so in it....on REGULAR detergent oil it's been running on for 34 years....cheaply. I can't tell how many miles are on it. I rolled it over 99,999 twice since I owned it and the previous owner couldn't remember whether it was once or twice he rolled the odometer over...?? There's 264,000 on the six digit '83 300TD wagon I use as a dump truck at the thrift shops. Oops...boating....boating's great! Let's go cruising! There. Now we're on-topic...(c; Does Belize have a Walmart, in case I need a replacement battery? Japan has them. Russia has them. Probably Belize has them.... -- http://www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/verichip.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VeriChip http://www.verichipcorp.com/ Tracked like a dog, every license/product/tax. Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name... |
#16
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Interesting Lead Acid Battery facts
"Larry" wrote in message ... "KLC Lewis" wrote in et: There's much more to battery construction than just chemistry. I'll bite......Name them. Besides Lead and water and sulfuric acid, there's plastic and rubber. What did I miss?? Lead-Acid batteries are good for about 300 cycles of no more than 50% discharge of capacity. I sure hope you don't depend on them lasting 20 years. Are you talking about the Series 5000 3-year-warranty? "Failure within 36 months from the date placed in service yields FREE REPLACEMENT, not including freight charges from the factory to the applicable destination. After the first 36 months of service, defective batteries will be adjusted for a period of up to 120 months prorated from the date first in service at prices in effect at time of adjustment." I don't see any 10 year warranty, here. 36 months...same as Interstate for how-many-times as much money? Oh, it also says: "To claim a manufacturing warranty, proof of purchase must be presented, showing the date of purchase and the battery's serial number. The battery must be tested by an Authorized Battery Outlet for actual defect, and upon confirmation of the defect, the warranty will be administered. The Warranty does not cover shipping damage, cracked covers, cracked cases, bulged cases from heat, freezing or explosion, discharged batteries, the use of undersized batteries damaged from electrical equipment. This warranty covers only manufacturing defects. The Company makes no warranty with respect to its batteries other than the warranty stated above. All implied warranties of merchantability and all expressed and implied warranties of any other kind are hereby excluded." Notice how it carefully says it doesn't cover "discharged batteries"? So, if I ship 'em a dead battery, that's not covered under the warranty?? If the battery weren't dead, why would I ship it to them in the first place?? "This warranty covers ONLY manufacturing defects." In other words, it doesn't cover sulphation, refusal to stay charged, reduced AH capacity, or anything related to a 500AH battery that only has 100AH of capacity left next year....That's what it says. Who's the "Authorized Battery Outlet" that going to do the testing for the "actual defect" in, say, Belize or Acapulco, if it croaks while we're cruising? "upon confirmation of the DEFECT, the warranty will be administered." What if I don't find a Rolls "Authorized Battery Outlet" in Belize? What if he refuses to come to the boat for "testing"? What will he charge for that? I doubt, "Hello, Rolls? I'm in Belize and the damned thing won't stay charged until morning! I paid $1250 for this thing 2 years and 10 months ago. Send me another one!", is gonna make it happen. Do you? If you think Rolls is going to send you another $800 battery in 2010 when yours is worn out, you are in for a shock! I must admit, however, the red plastic will look more impressive in the lazerette than the golf cart batteries.....(c; I also wanna know what those bolts that hold the cells together in that acid bath are made out of, inside the pretty case. The ears must be lead. Are the bolts lead, too? Anything else just makes another battery with the ears. Don't they rust solid in a year or two? Anyone have corrosion problems between cells where the plates meet under the bolts? You note the 36 month full-replacement, then completely ignore the 120 month additional pro-rated warranty. I don't know of any other company that offers anything comparable. If I purchase the battery and place it in service, and it fails for a manufacturing defect by 2010, yes -- I do expect a brand new battery, and Rolls Surrette has a stellar reputation. Regarding the differences in batteries "besides chemistry": Thickness and composition of plates; thicker is better than thinner, solid is better than composite. Insulation materials also matter; thicker is better than thinner, rubber is better than cardboard, etc. etc. I will readily admit that most of my battery problems over the years have been user error; I didn't know enough about them, and didn't care to know much. But I've had more than a couple of batteries fail after 18 months or so, not through improper maintenance but because of cells going bad (a manufacturing defect), where the most I could expect from the warranty is a pro-rated replacement that knocks about 24-30% off the price of the new battery. I currently have one very good 115 ah battery which I purchased last spring, kept up under (if I do say so myself) impeccible maintenance, which has already begun to show a decline in capacity. Not much -- it will probably last at least two more seasons without worry. But its capacity isn't close to what I need. I can't just add another new battery or two into the equation, as they will be newer than the old one and that will cause problems down the road. Since I have resigned myself to needing to buy new batteries anyway, I have a choice: Three group 31's which will give me about 375 ah, my goal, or one 12MD-375. The Rolls will cost twice as much, but it will be a bit smaller and last at least twice as long. It will be under pro-rated warranty even after six years. To me, it just makes sense. Obviously you disagree. But you have your boat and I have mine. :-) Karin |
#17
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Interesting Lead Acid Battery facts
Larry wrote:
"purple_stars" wrote in [snip] Does Belize have a Walmart, in case I need a replacement battery? Japan has them. Russia has them. Probably Belize has them.... Well, I can say for sure there are Walmarts in southern Mexico only an hour or two away from Belize, so I assume Belize has them. When I was in Belize I was making tracks for Guatemala so I really didn't stay long enough to find out. The Walmart I went to in southern Mexico was different than the Walmarts here ... many of the products were not the same, produce/fruits were very different, etc, it even had a huge bakery that was filled with different kind of bread and things, unlike here. It really is a Mexican store. There were even people out front who take your bags to the truck for you and stand there politely waiting for a tip. Walmart in Mexico is kind of like Burger King in Mexico, a happening place to go. I mean people dress up to go there. |
#18
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Interesting Lead Acid Battery facts
"KLC Lewis" wrote in
: You note the 36 month full-replacement, then completely ignore the 120 month additional pro-rated warranty. I don't know of any other company that offers anything comparable. If I purchase the battery and place it in service, and it fails for a manufacturing defect by 2010, yes -- I do expect a brand new battery, and Rolls Surrette has a stellar reputation. But, it means nothing, no matter if it were 50 years. Batteries SULPHATE and wear out and that is SPECIFICALLY NOT COVERED on Rolls' warranty page. They are NOT waranteeing it to charge to any level for even 3 years. The warranty ONLY covers "manufacturing defects", absolving them of any responsibility caused by use and chemistry. If they choose not to hold to this warranty to make a customer happy, that's just fine....but, they are NOT responsible if they hold to the warranty definitions. Rolls has some fantastic information on this website, other than sales hype and warranty info. Click on SITE MAP then look for "Bulletins". Click Bulletins and a whole wonderful, very realistic and correct set of bulletins every boater should read, especially those contemplating those Gelcells or AGM "sealed" batteries! Rolls' procedures and information on Equalization...that DOESN'T require, by the way, purchasing some $3000 supercharger to accomplish...is first class. Their information on plate sulphation and its cure only lacks information about unrecoverable sulphate that has fallen off the plates in solid form, to make it perfect. These "bulletins" are great information, but a little hard to read as the whole website runs on java scripts over a goofy background the scripts here show as transparent on a big LCD monitor. You can't download the javascript based bulletins, but it will let you copy/paste the text to Notepad for printing and storage for future reference. -- http://www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/verichip.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VeriChip http://www.verichipcorp.com/ Tracked like a dog, every license/product/tax. Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name... |
#19
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Interesting Lead Acid Battery facts
"Larry" wrote in message ... But, it means nothing, no matter if it were 50 years. Batteries SULPHATE and wear out and that is SPECIFICALLY NOT COVERED on Rolls' warranty page. They are NOT waranteeing it to charge to any level for even 3 years. The warranty ONLY covers "manufacturing defects", absolving them of any responsibility caused by use and chemistry. If they choose not to hold to this warranty to make a customer happy, that's just fine....but, they are NOT responsible if they hold to the warranty definitions. They cannot guarantee that a battery will continue to operate without proper charging and maintenance, that is agreed. If an owner mistreats even a Rolls battery it could conceivably fail within three years, and Rolls might well decide not to honor the warranty. However, this situation would be definitively determined by examination by a qualified battery tech; batteries don't develop level 3 (unrecoverable) or even level 2 (recoverable but difficult) sulfate under proper care. If under examination it is shown that the battery failed despite your best and proper care, they will make it right. And to maintain their rep, as you noted, they may even replace a mistreated one. So given proper care, we are left with a battery that has a reliable lifespan, based upon its chemistry and construction, of 7-15 years in real-world use. That is what I am looking for. A battery with a long lifespan given proper care. Not a "toss it after every season" battery which could very well fail because of mechanical defects during that year. Rolls fits the bill to a "T." YMMV. Karin |
#20
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Interesting Lead Acid Battery facts
I have a Dodge PU with a Cummins. It requires 2 batteries to heat the
preheat plate and to crank it. 30 deg weather and it cranked real slow. Took it to Wallyworld where I purchased the batts 2 years ago and they never even checked them. Replaced and said your 3 year warranty just restarted! No charge. I was impressed! Of course, sometimes it doesn't take much to impress me! Gordon |
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