"Larry" wrote in message
...
"KLC Lewis" wrote in
et:

There's much more to
battery construction than just chemistry.


I'll bite......Name them. Besides Lead and water and sulfuric acid,
there's plastic and rubber. What did I miss??

Lead-Acid batteries are good for about 300 cycles of no more than 50%
discharge of capacity. I sure hope you don't depend on them lasting 20
years.

Are you talking about the Series 5000 3-year-warranty?

"Failure within 36 months from the date placed in service yields FREE
REPLACEMENT, not including freight charges from the factory to the
applicable destination. After the first 36 months of service, defective
batteries will be adjusted for a period of up to 120 months prorated from
the date first in service at prices in effect at time of adjustment."

I don't see any 10 year warranty, here. 36 months...same as Interstate
for how-many-times as much money?

Oh, it also says:

"To claim a manufacturing warranty, proof of purchase must be presented,
showing the date of purchase and the battery's serial number. The battery
must be tested by an Authorized Battery Outlet for actual defect, and
upon confirmation of the defect, the warranty will be administered.

The Warranty does not cover shipping damage, cracked covers, cracked
cases, bulged cases from heat, freezing or explosion, discharged
batteries, the use of undersized batteries damaged from electrical
equipment. This warranty covers only manufacturing defects.

The Company makes no warranty with respect to its batteries other than
the warranty stated above. All implied warranties of merchantability and
all expressed and implied warranties of any other kind are hereby
excluded."

Notice how it carefully says it doesn't cover "discharged batteries"?
So, if I ship 'em a dead battery, that's not covered under the warranty??
If the battery weren't dead, why would I ship it to them in the first
place?? "This warranty covers ONLY manufacturing defects."

In other words, it doesn't cover sulphation, refusal to stay charged,
reduced AH capacity, or anything related to a 500AH battery that only has
100AH of capacity left next year....That's what it says.

Who's the "Authorized Battery Outlet" that going to do the testing for
the "actual defect" in, say, Belize or Acapulco, if it croaks while we're
cruising? "upon confirmation of the DEFECT, the warranty will be
administered." What if I don't find a Rolls "Authorized Battery Outlet"
in Belize? What if he refuses to come to the boat for "testing"? What
will he charge for that? I doubt, "Hello, Rolls? I'm in Belize and the
damned thing won't stay charged until morning! I paid $1250 for this
thing 2 years and 10 months ago. Send me another one!", is gonna make it
happen. Do you?

If you think Rolls is going to send you another $800 battery in 2010 when
yours is worn out, you are in for a shock!

I must admit, however, the red plastic will look more impressive in the
lazerette than the golf cart batteries.....(c;

I also wanna know what those bolts that hold the cells together in that
acid bath are made out of, inside the pretty case. The ears must be
lead. Are the bolts lead, too? Anything else just makes another battery
with the ears. Don't they rust solid in a year or two? Anyone have
corrosion problems between cells where the plates meet under the bolts?

You note the 36 month full-replacement, then completely ignore the 120 month
additional pro-rated warranty. I don't know of any other company that offers
anything comparable. If I purchase the battery and place it in service, and
it fails for a manufacturing defect by 2010, yes -- I do expect a brand new
battery, and Rolls Surrette has a stellar reputation.

Regarding the differences in batteries "besides chemistry": Thickness and
composition of plates; thicker is better than thinner, solid is better than
composite. Insulation materials also matter; thicker is better than thinner,
rubber is better than cardboard, etc. etc.

I will readily admit that most of my battery problems over the years have
been user error; I didn't know enough about them, and didn't care to know
much. But I've had more than a couple of batteries fail after 18 months or
so, not through improper maintenance but because of cells going bad (a
manufacturing defect), where the most I could expect from the warranty is a
pro-rated replacement that knocks about 24-30% off the price of the new
battery.

I currently have one very good 115 ah battery which I purchased last spring,
kept up under (if I do say so myself) impeccible maintenance, which has
already begun to show a decline in capacity. Not much -- it will probably
last at least two more seasons without worry. But its capacity isn't close
to what I need. I can't just add another new battery or two into the
equation, as they will be newer than the old one and that will cause
problems down the road.

Since I have resigned myself to needing to buy new batteries anyway, I have
a choice: Three group 31's which will give me about 375 ah, my goal, or one
12MD-375. The Rolls will cost twice as much, but it will be a bit smaller
and last at least twice as long. It will be under pro-rated warranty even
after six years. To me, it just makes sense. Obviously you disagree. But you
have your boat and I have mine. :-)

Karin

Larry wrote:
"KLC Lewis" wrote in
et:


There's much more to
battery construction than just chemistry.



I'll bite......Name them. Besides Lead and water and sulfuric acid,
there's plastic and rubber. What did I miss??

Along the lines of this thread, I agree that there don't seem to be many
advantages in favor of sealed over conventional batteries. Well, no
advantages except for some sealed batteries that offer the ability to be
mounted at angles that would create spills from conventional batteries.


That said, there are significant variations in battery construction that
make a difference in performance and life expectancy.

First is the thickness of the lead plates. Thicker plates last longer
than thinner plates. Thicker plates are less prone to breakage or
breakdown.

The more plates (and subsequent increase in surface area) change a
battery's total capacity, charge rate and momentary capacity.

Solid plates are better than composite plates.

The battery case construction makes a difference in its ability to
sustain prolonged charges, heat and corrosion.

Internal connections make a difference in their ability to resist
corrosion inside the battery.

Post / terminal construction makes a difference just to keep the battery
usable.


A size 27 case can hold a lot of different variations of battery
configurations and construction features.


FYI, I've used conventional deep discharge Interstate Batteries for
years (NOT the sealed variety) with outstanding results. No complaints.
From my persoanl use perspectives, I have not need for sealed
batteries and no desire for their limitations.

Larry wrote:
In our ongoing watered golf cart vs. expensive maintenance-free gauze
battery discussion, there are some very revealing facts the author points
out that I'm sure the battery sales people wouldn't want you to look at
too closely...
[snip]

Good stuff. My own experience with lead-acid batteries leads me to
believe that no matter how well you take care of them they don't last
more than a 2 or 3 years. For example I had a pair of deep cycle
marine batteries in the truck to run ham radio equipment, I installed
those in about November of 2004. They aren't deeply discharged, and
the truck is driven every day for at least 20 miles and usually much
more than that, rarely is it left a whole day without moving at all
(when left at an airport only). The radio equipment is on all the time
so there is a constant load and it did happen on rare occasions
(airport) that the batteries would get drained completely, but I
consider that typical of what a cruiser does to batteries, sometimes it
just happens. The batteries have been well maintained, I check the
water in them often and replace it as necessary, and the batteries are
sitting on a wooden battery "tray" that I made for them behind the
passenger seat. I wouldn't say they are pampered, but they certainly
are not abused.

Recently these batteries have degraded to the point that they won't run
the radio equipment over an entire night (10 hours let's say) before
they go completely dead. Now of course those "completely dead"
dicharge cycles are rapidly eating the batteries and sucking out what
life they had left in them, because it's a bad thing to completely
discharge lead acid batteries. But they degrade naturally to that
point, that is to say that I didn't suddenly change my habits, they are
being subjected to the same conditions as when they were first
installed in the truck.

This is very similar to experience I have had with lead acid batteries
over my lifetime, but I always thought that they "died" because I
wasn't taken good enough care of them. I'm convinced now, however,
that it really doesn't matter much, that no matter what you do with
deep cycle lead acid batteries they are not going to last more than
about 2 or 3 years, maybe a few years more if you have a really huge
bank that is under a very light load, and maybe a few years more beyond
that if you are using something more substantial than a marine deep
cycle, something made as a UPS backup for example or for unattended
telephone stations. I have started to think that it's best to just
plan on replacing the bank after 3 or 4 years (conservatively) and buy
accordingly. In any mega-store store you can get 100aH 12vdc batteries
for 50$us/each. So for 2000aH at 12vdc that's about 1000$us, amortized
over 3 years let's say, that's about 333$us/year. Compare that with
West Marine AGM 8D batteries in a bank, 180aH per 12vdc battery for
410$us/battery, that comes out by my math to be 2000aH for
4551$us/bank, or about 4 times as expensive as the cheap lead acid
batteries. Are the expensive ones going to last 4 times as long ? Say
that again ... are the expensive AGM marine deep cycle batteries from
West Marine going to last 12 years ? Anyone have experience that says
yes ? They'd have to last that long to give the same cost/benefit.

Do they last that long ? I have my doubts. In fact, I'm starting to
think that the best way to go is to just find a supplier of the
cheapest thick plate lead acid battery you can find and buy your banks
there with the intention of replacing them all after 3 or 4 years.

"purple_stars" wrote in
oups.com:

Recently these batteries have degraded to the point that they won't run
the radio equipment over an entire night (10 hours let's say) before
they go completely dead. Now of course those "completely dead"
dicharge cycles are rapidly eating the batteries and sucking out what
life they had left in them, because it's a bad thing to completely
discharge lead acid batteries.

I used to run a rather powerful HF station mobile:
Yaesu FT-900 remote mounted in trunk
Highly modified TenTec Hercules II, 120 amps from golf cart beasts with
650 watts output to a 15' tall, trailer-hitch-mounted, homebrew using
Henry Allen's Texas Bugcatcher's biggest coil and 8-spoke, 36" capacitor
hat. On 20M, my favorite band, the coil was shorted out, completely, and
the whip on top was tuned so only the capacitor hat was used, pulling the
current lobe way up the mast for more H field. Maybe some day I'll put
it back in the car when the sun cooperates better....

I, too, drove the car every day and didn't really tax it much with much
transmitting power, except on long trips with ham friends. The big
batteries got weaker over time and it took me a while to figure out what
was going on.....

Like you, my daily drive was around 25 miles of city driving, which is
part of the problem. I used a continuous duty solenoid to connect the
ham batteries in parallel with the diesel starting battery in the finest
ham radio car (zero electrical noise) ever invented, the 1973 Mercedes
220Diesel with no electronics, at all. I still drive it. I restored it.

The car has a 80A alternator, plenty of juice, and a huge starting
battery for the diesel.

I started tracking the specific gravity and plotting it after a long
overcharge (2 days) from 1.280 sg. Each day, upon arriving home from the
driving, I got out my hydrometer and recorded/plotted the gravity, the
only REAL means of measuring cell condition in lead acid batteries.

The chart started falling from that first day. Well, maybe it'll level
off at some point, as we did start with a really full charge. Nope, it
never did. The 25-45 mile drive each day in stop and go traffic never
produced enough charging TIME to recover the gravity all the way up to
full, or even close. It looked good on the voltmeter, 14.5 volts
charging, until I stopped or keyed the beast around 140A (with the radio)
on packet or rtty. There simply wasn't enough charge TIME to cause the
chemistry to reverse.

I gave up the test around 1.180, defeated.....

The solution was quite simple. Leave a drop cord by the car and mount a
10A automatic shutoff battery charger in the trunk by the
batteries....and simply plug in the car all night. Specific gravity
recovered the first day from the SLOW, SLOW recharging at 3-4A and each
morning the charger would by slowly cycling on with long off periods as
the battery's high gravity voltage held it off very nicely.

I remoted the charger's AC plug to under the trailer hitch to make
connecting it as easy an painless as possible. The batteries went from
lasting a year and a half to five and a half years, same batteries, same
manufacturer....lots less unrecoverable sulphation.

Boats that have a little charger plugged into the dock and water their
batteries with DISTILLED ONLY get that gravity back up after the abuse of
dreaming you're going to charge them at 50A for 30 minutes on the engine
at sea. Same effect....charging happens very SLOWLY OVER TIME.

Larry wrote:
[snip]
I remoted the charger's AC plug to under the trailer hitch to make
connecting it as easy an painless as possible. The batteries went from
lasting a year and a half to five and a half years, same batteries, same
manufacturer....lots less unrecoverable sulphation.

Boats that have a little charger plugged into the dock and water their
batteries with DISTILLED ONLY get that gravity back up after the abuse of
dreaming you're going to charge them at 50A for 30 minutes on the engine
at sea. Same effect....charging happens very SLOWLY OVER TIME.

That's a very good thought, Larry. And I suspect you are right about
it, that you can make the batteries last longer by plugging them into
shore power. You could probably make them last longer by having them
hooked to a wind generator and/or solar panel too since they would be
getting constant recharge current and would spend their lives more
charged than more discharged. As far as I am concerned that only makes
more of a case for using really cheap ass batteries from a mega-store
... because those AGM batteries are 4.5 times as expensive for the same
number of amp hours, so if you can get 5 years, or 8 years, or whatever
out of a lead-acid deep cycle, you're looking at 20 years, or 30 years
that you'd have to get out of AGM's to get the same cost/benefit.

I would be interested in anyone's experience with using batteries that
you can remove the plates from, has anyone used any like that ? I
assume they exist. The idea being to take the plates out every few
years and get some kind of a solvent, or I don't know .. a toothbrush I
guess, and scrub the plates clean. I'm sure they wouldn't advertise
that "feature" since it would no doubt get environmentalist feathers
ruffled if people did that out in their driveway or something. I'd
like to know about it though. Sure, it might take off a little plating
material, but who cares if the plates are thick ? I wish I had the
problem of using deep cycle batteries so long that the plating material
wears thin, that would be a dream come true.

"purple_stars" wrote in
oups.com:

That's a very good thought, Larry. And I suspect you are right about
it, that you can make the batteries last longer by plugging them into
shore power. You could probably make them last longer by having them
hooked to a wind generator and/or solar panel too since they would be
getting constant recharge current and would spend their lives more
charged than more discharged. As far as I am concerned that only makes
more of a case for using really cheap ass batteries from a mega-store
.. because those AGM batteries are 4.5 times as expensive for the same
number of amp hours, so if you can get 5 years, or 8 years, or whatever
out of a lead-acid deep cycle, you're looking at 20 years, or 30 years
that you'd have to get out of AGM's to get the same cost/benefit.

You don't want to "constant recharge" them all the time! That will only
lead to electrolyte loss as the water is converted to hydrogen, leaving
concentrated sulphuric eating the bottoms off the plates still
submerged....not good!

The shore charger needs to charge until it reaches 14.2, then completely
shut down and just sit there until the voltage drops to around 13 to
13.2, when it cycles on again for a BRIEF period at LOW current....not
percolate them to death...(c;

My answer to the Rolls buyer is in another post. The warranty on the
5000 (best-the-gots) is only 3 years and ONLY for MANUFACTURING DEFECTS,
not for worn out cells. If there's a manufacturing defect, it's easy to
spot....acid leaking out into the bilge rotting the bilge pumps or the
ensuing explosion when the plates shorted out. NOONE's warranty covers
ANYTHING about how long it takes them to WEAR OUT! WEAR OUT simply isn't
covered by any battery warranty!


I would be interested in anyone's experience with using batteries that
you can remove the plates from, has anyone used any like that ? I
assume they exist. The idea being to take the plates out every few
years and get some kind of a solvent, or I don't know .. a toothbrush I
guess, and scrub the plates clean. I'm sure they wouldn't advertise
that "feature" since it would no doubt get environmentalist feathers
ruffled if people did that out in their driveway or something. I'd
like to know about it though. Sure, it might take off a little plating
material, but who cares if the plates are thick ? I wish I had the
problem of using deep cycle batteries so long that the plating material
wears thin, that would be a dream come true.


The $89 golf cart batteries have replaceable cells....3 at a time....(c;

A 6V golf cart battery costs, I'm guessing because there is NO MENTION OF
PRICE on Rolls' website, whatsoever, so the dealers can rip 'em
off....I'd guess ONE Rolls cell is easily more money than THREE golf cart
cells....and NO SHIPPING FROM NOVA SCOTIA to pay for, which ISN'T
covered, either!

As usual, we don't read the fine print on the warranty page....which is
buried, conveniently, in the "Site Map" tab of Rolls' webpage. There's
no tab for SUPPORT or SERVICE or WARRANTY up front. Coincidence?? It
certainly is curious, at least.

I just wish WALMART had big golf cart batteries, without having to go to
the bogus Sam's Club and "pay to go shopping with us", which is stupid.
I haven't asked them if they could order them and how much. I only buy
car tires from WalMart, any more, after an incident in Florida. My
Goodyear tire came apart and I didn't have all my "papers" for it from 3
years ago from WalMart. Finding a Walmart was easy...sometimes you have
to stand on the hood, but it's close. I took the tire to WalMart at
Daytona Beach and told them I bought it in Charleston. "Not a problem.
What's your phone number?", she asked. My record popped up with my
lifetime $6.94 warranty. "Did you want us to rotate and balance them
all, too? It's been quite a few miles. It's free." I was in a hurry so
declined. The kid put the car on the lift and put a brand new Goodyear
tire on my rim. "Sir, your car is ready.", she smiles. I pull out my
credit card to pay and she says, "Oh, there's no charge. You have the
Walmart lifetime warranty.", as she hands me my keys....280 miles from
home. Make fun of Wally if you must, but that's pretty hard to beat...no
papers, no hassles, no arguing... I hope all the tires tear up before
the tread wears out. I'll never have to buy tires again!

I also don't use Amsoil Synthetic over Shell Rotella T dino oil, either.
One of my cars is a 1973 Mercedes 220 Diesel. We can be in California
across the country in a week or so in it....on REGULAR detergent oil it's
been running on for 34 years....cheaply. I can't tell how many miles are
on it. I rolled it over 99,999 twice since I owned it and the previous
owner couldn't remember whether it was once or twice he rolled the
odometer over...?? There's 264,000 on the six digit '83 300TD wagon I
use as a dump truck at the thrift shops.

Oops...boating....boating's great! Let's go cruising! There. Now we're
on-topic...(c;

Does Belize have a Walmart, in case I need a replacement battery? Japan
has them. Russia has them. Probably Belize has them....


--
http://www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/verichip.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VeriChip
http://www.verichipcorp.com/
Tracked like a dog, every license/product/tax.
Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor,
free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their
foreheads:
17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the
name of the beast, or the number of his name...

Larry wrote:
"purple_stars" wrote in
[snip]
Does Belize have a Walmart, in case I need a replacement battery? Japan
has them. Russia has them. Probably Belize has them....

Well, I can say for sure there are Walmarts in southern Mexico only an
hour or two away from Belize, so I assume Belize has them. When I was
in Belize I was making tracks for Guatemala so I really didn't stay
long enough to find out. The Walmart I went to in southern Mexico was
different than the Walmarts here ... many of the products were not the
same, produce/fruits were very different, etc, it even had a huge
bakery that was filled with different kind of bread and things, unlike
here. It really is a Mexican store. There were even people out front
who take your bags to the truck for you and stand there politely
waiting for a tip. Walmart in Mexico is kind of like Burger King in
Mexico, a happening place to go. I mean people dress up to go there.

"purple_stars" wrote in
oups.com:

Do they last that long ? I have my doubts. In fact, I'm starting to
think that the best way to go is to just find a supplier of the
cheapest thick plate lead acid battery you can find and buy your banks
there with the intention of replacing them all after 3 or 4 years.



Of course not. With AGM batteries there's no way of measuring their
condition in the acid-soaked gauze wrapping. You can't replace lost
electrolye water from the charging so you're stuck, eventually, with
dried out gauze and no juice. The price is a pure ripoff....it's a "boat
battery", right? It's supposed to be 8 times higher. Boaters are rich,
right, and don't care what they pay for real quality in a pretty red
plastic case....right?




--
http://www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/verichip.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VeriChip
http://www.verichipcorp.com/
Tracked like a dog, every license/product/tax.
Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor,
free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their
foreheads:
17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the
name of the beast, or the number of his name...