Several thoughts:

I've never heard your "six times the sail area" formula. The usual
number is to calculate sheet force as .004 x sail area (sq ft) x wind
speed squared (is that square knots?) Your formula gives the same load
as the standard at around 39 knots, but the load at 39 knots is four
times that at 20 knots, and you will certainly have changed headsails
by then, probably twice.

References:
Harken catalogs for at least the last ten years
Oceanography and Seamanship, Van Dorn, Cornell Maritime Press (the
best not too technical text on its subjects by far -- you should add
it to your list)
Skenes Elements of Yacht Design, Kinney, Dodd Mead
also Marchaj, Henderson, and others.

We had Harken 980s (80:1) and Lewmar 65s in the cockpit on Swee****er
and were probably overwinched there. We added the Harkens after
sailing her in the summer of 1994 with old sheets, old sails, and
winches that hadn't been maintained in years. The rebuilt Lewmars
were fine.

Her foretriangle was 850 sq ft (100%) and we usually used an 1100
square foot Spectra genoa on a roller. For passages in windy areas
(the Tasman, etc.) we switched to a Yankee with a very high clew and a
forestaysail on the removable stay. I should add that both of us were
(and still are) 50-something and in the sort of reasonable condition
you get into when you're living on a boat, but not exceptional in any
way.

Remember that you're not racing -- race boat winches are sized to
bring a big genoa in fast when tacking, then do it again and again
without taxing the gorillas -- crusing winches should make it
reasonably easy to bring the sail in, but you can always luff up a
bit.

I think you'll be perfectly happy with 56s, possibly less. You'll find
65s too big (yes, winches can be too big, as they are slower) --
remember Swee****er came with 65s and her foretriangle is 70% bigger
than yours.

And by the way, this assumes you hang one sail up there. You call her
a "cutter" -- if you're never going to hang a single big genoa, then
all these numbers are too high.

As for Harken, they may have changed designs since we bought ours new
in 1995, but the ones we had were much less satisfactory than the 1982
Lewmars that came with the boat (we put new pawls, pawl springs, and
some bearings in the Lewmars). The Harkens required more frequent
cleaning and felt less efficent.

We put an electric Harken 53 on the main halyard (versus Harken's
recommendation of a 48) and the drive gear broke twice -- once in the
Galapagos and once off Malta. Although both were within the three
year warranty period, I paid $500 for each fix. Fortunately it still
worked in armstrong mode.

So, while I wouldn't use any other brand of blocks, and I love their
ball top winch handles, any future winches I buy will not be Harken (I
bought two Lewmar 65s, well used, but nice, at the Beaulieu Boat
Jumble (read "flea market") for Fintry for £400 each). We'll use them
for flag halyards and docking.

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

Glenn Ashmore wrote in message ...
Armond Perretta wrote:

I don't know your source for this, Glenn, but I have pretty much
always heard the figure of 50 pounds quoted. Then you do the ratio
math from there.

Without looking it up I think Wally Ross has some tables for this (my
sailing books are still in boxes 3 moths after the move to a new
house).


The 35 comes from Brion Toss's book and a couple of articles I found on
the Harkne and Lewmar sites on sizing winches. I thought it was a bit
low myself. That's why I asked. Brion is a big Harken booster and
probably got that number from them but they are out to sell winches so I
guess you need to take their recommendations with a grain of salt. :-)

I believe I am going with Harken as I already have a Harken 44 electric
for the halyards and reefing lines. My choices therefore are between a
56 at about $2600 each and 55 lbs of force and a 64 at $3600 each and 45
lbs force.

The pressure is really on now and the boat bucks are just flying out of
my wallet. Harken usually raises prices in November so I need to make a
decision by the time I leave the Annapolis show.

Here is where I got the formula on the Harken site. About 2/3 down the
page:
http://www.harken.com/winches/wnchpower.php

It is also in Brion Toss's Riggers Apprentice on page 42. (Almost
verbatim from the harken site.) OTOH, when you look at the tables a 56
or 64 is the recommended size for a 500 sq ft foretriangle.

I wish to heck I knew what a Newton is. All the really authoritative
modern texts are metric!



--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:41:47 -0400, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

Here is where I got the formula on the Harken site. About 2/3 down the
page:
http://www.harken.com/winches/wnchpower.php

It is also in Brion Toss's Riggers Apprentice on page 42. (Almost
verbatim from the harken site.) OTOH, when you look at the tables a 56
or 64 is the recommended size for a 500 sq ft foretriangle.

I wish to heck I knew what a Newton is. All the really authoritative
modern texts are metric!

Hold a good sized apple in your hand: that's a force of 1 newton
you're holding it up with - a little under a quarter pound.

Brian W

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:41:47 -0400, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

I wish to heck I knew what a Newton is. All the really authoritative
modern texts are metric!

It's a brown, square little cake stuffed with Fig guts about 1/2"
thick and cut square on two sides like it's made in one continuous
tube and they slice it ever' so of'n.

They also got 'em in Strawberry, Blueberry an' Raspberry, but I
suspect the Fig ones'll always win out from the traditionalist buyers
who are addicted......and my two parrots.


Larry W4CSC

3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
...
Here is where I got the formula on the Harken site. About 2/3 down the
page:
http://www.harken.com/winches/wnchpower.php

In this case I think Harken is just off. They use an example of a 300 sq.
ft headsail (nearly the size of the genoa on my last boat, a 30' cutter) and
conclude you need a 50:1 winch. I don't think so. The winch was a 2 speed
32:1 and was fine. Yes, it was a bit of effort in a stiff breeze - but you
could still wind it in.

The usual formula for sheet loads is

F (lbs) = 0.00431 A(sq. ft) V^2 (knots)

There are some frictional losses through sheet blocks but not that much,
perhaps 10%.

I think 56's would be more than fine for your 505 ft foresail. If they are
self tailers, and you use a 2 handled winch handle, they will be a breeze
for smaller crew members.

by the way in case you were not kidding:
1 N = .0981 kg i.e. about 0.1 kg force or about 0.2 lbs


--
Evan Gatehouse

you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me
ceilydh AT 3web dot net
(fools the spammers)

I agree with Evan -- Harken is way off.

The formula Evan quotes is the same one I quoted above. As I noted,
it's been used by Skene (Kinney), Van Dorn, Henderson, Marchaj, and
many others.

The trouble with the Harken formula is that it doesn't specify a wind
speed. Since sheeting force varies with the square of wind speed,
that's a vital part of the choice of winch size. If you really expect
to carry a full foretriangle at 40 knots, then the Harken formula is
fine. That, however, suggests that at ten knots you'll be grossly
undercanvassed -- that you could carry sixteen times more sail than
you have.

Put another way, the difference between a 56 and a 66 is 18% in power.
Since the sheeting force varies with wind speed squared, a sail that
is easy with a 56 at 20 knots would require a 66 at 21.7 knots. Since
this is a very subtle difference, the only way to do this is for you
(Glenn) to do the math. Look at the rig you'll be carrying at each
wind speed, calculate the sheet loads with the Evan's formula and make
a decision.

Your naval architect can provide a table of her ability to carry sail
at various wind speeds up to bare poles at around sixty knots.
Beware, these are probably high -- my experience with several boats,
including Swee****er (Swan 57 by Sparkman & Stephens) was that we
never carried as much sail as they said we could. We were, of course
cruising shorthanded, not racing.

For my money, they are far better places to put money in a cruising
boat than in big winches. Dee (wife and crew for 37 years) would
agree, and she's the one who has to be perfectly happy reefing,
tacking, whatever, alone at night, in a blow, without waking me.

(I should add, however, that there are limits. The sailor who goes
out with grossly undersized winches and tacks by luffing while
sheeting, risks breaking the winch or ripping it out of the deck in
puffs.)

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

"Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message ...
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
...
Here is where I got the formula on the Harken site. About 2/3 down the
page:
http://www.harken.com/winches/wnchpower.php

In this case I think Harken is just off. They use an example of a 300 sq.
ft headsail (nearly the size of the genoa on my last boat, a 30' cutter) and
conclude you need a 50:1 winch. I don't think so. The winch was a 2 speed
32:1 and was fine. Yes, it was a bit of effort in a stiff breeze - but you
could still wind it in.

The usual formula for sheet loads is

F (lbs) = 0.00431 A(sq. ft) V^2 (knots)

There are some frictional losses through sheet blocks but not that much,
perhaps 10%.

I think 56's would be more than fine for your 505 ft foresail. If they are
self tailers, and you use a 2 handled winch handle, they will be a breeze
for smaller crew members.

by the way in case you were not kidding:
1 N = .0981 kg i.e. about 0.1 kg force or about 0.2 lbs

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:52:22 -0700, in message

"Evan Gatehouse" wrote:


"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
...
Here is where I got the formula on the Harken site. About 2/3 down the
page:
http://www.harken.com/winches/wnchpower.php

In this case I think Harken is just off. They use an example of a 300 sq.
ft headsail (nearly the size of the genoa on my last boat, a 30' cutter) and
conclude you need a 50:1 winch. I don't think so. The winch was a 2 speed
32:1 and was fine. Yes, it was a bit of effort in a stiff breeze - but you
could still wind it in.

You need to check the page again. The recommendation is based on the
size of the *foretriangle*, not on the size of the headsail. My
*foretriangle* is just over 300 square feet and the Lewmar 46s are a
good match for the loads all the way from the blown out 150% down to
what some of my chums refer to as my "cocktail jib" (short hoist for
about 80% of the foretriangle area).

The usual formula for sheet loads is

F (lbs) = 0.00431 A(sq. ft) V^2 (knots)

Both the sheet load and the driving forces will scale with V^2. If one
assumes that one will shorten sail at higher wind speeds to maintain
similar power levels, then the sheet load will remain similar as the
wind speed increases. If one then assumes that boats will carry
foresails with size being a similar fraction of the foretriangle at
similar wind speeds, then the loads will scale with foretriangle size
from boat to boat.

I think 56's would be more than fine for your 505 ft foresail. If they are
self tailers, and you use a 2 handled winch handle, they will be a breeze
for smaller crew members.

Probably. Note that a 505 square foot genoa would be 150% of a 335
square foot foretriangle and match the recommendation pretty closely
with a 56:1. OTOH, the 505 square foot storm jib of a MUCH bigger boat
would carry much higher loads and require more mechanical advantage.

by the way in case you were not kidding:
1 N = .0981 kg i.e. about 0.1 kg force or about 0.2 lbs

9.81 N is the force of gravity on a 1 kilogram mass near the earth's
surface, so 1 N is the weight of a mass of 0.10 kg or 0.22 lbs.

Ryk

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Ryk wrote:


You need to check the page again. The recommendation is based on the
size of the *foretriangle*, not on the size of the headsail. My
*foretriangle* is just over 300 square feet and the Lewmar 46s are a
good match for the loads all the way from the blown out 150% down to
what some of my chums refer to as my "cocktail jib" (short hoist for
about 80% of the foretriangle area).

The foretriangle is what we are talking about. Acording to that formula
your 300 sq ft foretriangle needs a pair of 52s. My I = 58.8 and J =
17.25 so my foretriangle is about 507 sq ft. The formula comes up with
80+ which is obviously out of line.

I think the problem is the 6 factor. It is supposed to be a combination
of 30 knots of wind and all the friction load. It must have been chosen
by a winch salesman. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Holy Cow. By that formula, the boat I race on with the 660 square foot
foretriangle (and it's a 12 ton boat to boot with lots of stability and big
loads) has winches about half the required size. We race with old
Barient 52s, and while short tacking with the #1 requires us to swap
out grinders on occasion, I don't think a 110 power ratio is what the
boat wants. I'd say something in the 60's would be better than what
we've got (the Barients were the biggest thing going when the boat
was built).

Use the formula Evan gave you (assume full foretriangle at about 30
knots) and go from there. Use a 35 pound load on the winch handle.
That gives you a 56 which is probably in the ballpark.

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
...


Ryk wrote:


You need to check the page again. The recommendation is based on the
size of the *foretriangle*, not on the size of the headsail. My
*foretriangle* is just over 300 square feet and the Lewmar 46s are a
good match for the loads all the way from the blown out 150% down to
what some of my chums refer to as my "cocktail jib" (short hoist for
about 80% of the foretriangle area).

The foretriangle is what we are talking about. Acording to that formula
your 300 sq ft foretriangle needs a pair of 52s. My I = 58.8 and J =
17.25 so my foretriangle is about 507 sq ft. The formula comes up with
80+ which is obviously out of line.

I think the problem is the 6 factor. It is supposed to be a combination
of 30 knots of wind and all the friction load. It must have been chosen
by a winch salesman. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:02:56 -0400, in message

Glenn Ashmore wrote:



Ryk wrote:


You need to check the page again. The recommendation is based on the
size of the *foretriangle*, not on the size of the headsail. My
*foretriangle* is just over 300 square feet and the Lewmar 46s are a
good match for the loads all the way from the blown out 150% down to
what some of my chums refer to as my "cocktail jib" (short hoist for
about 80% of the foretriangle area).

The foretriangle is what we are talking about.

and the post I was responding to was talking about "They use an
example of a 300 sq. ft headsail (nearly the size of the genoa on my
last boat, a 30' cutter)"

Acording to that formula
your 300 sq ft foretriangle needs a pair of 52s.

The 46s I have are good, but I sure wouldn't complain if a pair of 52s
appeared on my deck by magic. It's quite probably the racer in me that
just likes big winches.

My I = 58.8 and J =
17.25 so my foretriangle is about 507 sq ft. The formula comes up with
80+ which is obviously out of line.
I think the problem is the 6 factor. It is supposed to be a combination
of 30 knots of wind and all the friction load. It must have been chosen
by a winch salesman. :-)

It's probably also an issue of how you would likely sail the boat. If
you want to carry a 150% genny until performance would improve by
shortening sail and don't want to luff in order to trim, then you
probably would need the 80+ to stay down to the 35 pound load. You
could reduce the requirement dramatically by accepting a modest
performance hit in either of those areas and that could make a lot of
sense as a cost trade-off for cruising. Also, on a bigger boat it is
typically easier to get right over the winch, getting full use of both
arms and shoulders to raise the applied load on the handle, not to
mention moving up to a 12 inch handle.

Still, if money were no object, wouldn't a pair of 77 three speeds
suit your application (and the winch salesman's commission
account ;-) )?

Ryk

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