On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:12:10 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote:

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

Their routes were carefully chosen to be dead down wind or nearly so.
You can do that if you are going around the world, much harder
Portland, ME to Portsmouth, NH.

They would typically use a double head sail rig: Two jibs wung-out on
opposite sides, each with its own pole. The jib sheet on each side
would be led aft to a turning block, and then tied to the tiller. As
the boat would begin to head up too much in one direction or the
other, jib sheet tension would increase on one side and decrease on
the other, thus pulling the tiller in the correct direction to head
down wind again.


Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on
course?

Yes. They could go downwind for days and weeks at a time with little
or no adjustment.

On 26 Oct 2006 00:16:31 GMT, (Lauri Tarkkonen)
wrote:

So I wonder sometimes why people bother to give any advise here.

Good question.

Tom, AKA alias du jour, is good on questions, bad on well intentioned
advice. He's a challenge, and is easily confused by the facts.

Charlie Morgan wrote:
Do yourself a huge favor and ignore DSK. He's a well known and well worn usenet
failure. His knowlege is all from a book, and we are not sure he even has the
right book. He diesn't know anything firsthand about this subject.



People who have experience & knowledge can judge for
themselves whether I know anything about this (or other
sailing/cruising subjects).

Since you think I "have no experience" that shows 2 things-
how sound your judgement is (or isnt) and also your own
level of knowledge/experience.

DSK

Lauri ,,, I just checked.. in all the postings about this subject except
where I responded to a personal attack by one poster who questioned my right
to own a cruising sailboat because I thought spending $3k on a wind vane was
not a wise investment .......

I never used, nor did I write, nor post the word "cheap"

Check the postings...

As for or to the postings saying the sheet to tiller system of self steering
does not work .. that may be the case or it may not be the case.

I discovered one web page of an owner of a 28' sailboat that swears by his
sheet to tiller self steering system. He admits that it does not work on
all points of sail, nor does it work as well as an expensive windvane
system, but; he is satisfied with his system and he sails a bit offshore.

The attraction to the cruising newsgroup is the diverse opinion and the give
and take.

If the answer was always ... "you should not own a boat because you don't
have lots of money like I do"

Then, the newsgroup would be very poor.

===========================


"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In P%S%g.7320$ke4.5998@trndny02 "NE Sailboat"
writes:



Did I say I could not afford $3k, or did I say that it would not be a good
investment for me as I am not planning a long ocean voyage.

If I am going to spend $3k, I want to spend it wisely. Where I moored
last
summer there were numerous boats with wind vane systems, wind vane systems
that never ever got used. Dah ???

So, I posted for info about a less expensive and less reliable system;
the
sheet to tiller system.

Now I am Mr Cheapo.

So far I know how to read, you were the one taking the word "cheap" into
the discussion. If we do not know about systems that work and are
reliable in various conditions and advice againts cheap solutions, I do
not see any reason to be offended.

There are always people who believe that they can by good and cheap, but
in most cases if you want to have GOOD and CHEAP, you end up needing two
things.

It is your prerogative to make whatever you please with your boat and
money, but if you do not like the advice or comments on this list,
remember they are at least cheap.

Sometimes I wonder ,, I really do.

So I wonder sometimes why people bother to give any advise here.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

===================================


"DSK" wrote in message
t...
"NE Sailboat" writes:
I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.


If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you could never
really
afford a cruising boat anyway.


I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use
the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in
the
cockpit.


It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how!


Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.


It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat stuff costs,
anyway). The main expense would be getting the frame strong & rigid
enough, and after that, providing low friction bearings to reduce
working
drag down to the point where there is sufficient power to control the
helm.


If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must
be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked out in
coordination with the boat's steering characteristics.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

Or know how to make his own.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.


It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment. Gear that is
difficult to set on course properly, does not follow a course
accurately,
is quirky about what condition it will work at all, suffer minor
breakdowns, etc etc, will be more aggravation & potential hazard than
it's
worth.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In iOT%g.4206$%T3.1576@trndny03 "NE Sailboat" writes:

Lauri ,,, I just checked.. in all the postings about this subject except
where I responded to a personal attack by one poster who questioned my right
to own a cruising sailboat because I thought spending $3k on a wind vane was
not a wise investment .......

I never used, nor did I write, nor post the word "cheap"

Check the postings...

Some one here were asking for a poor mans... you may check your postings
yourself.

I have not said anything about what you should do with your money or
take any opinion if you should own a boat or not.

In your original poist, that I commented, you did not tell us, that you
did not mind if the thing did not work.

I still am entitled to my opinion that it does not make sense to buy or
make a windvane that has very limited use.

If someone is happy with his steering system that works if the
conditions are right, you may follow his advice.

I am sorry to pay some attention to your enquiry.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

In article ebS%g.7278$ke4.1160@trndny02, says...
Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.

Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality,
and probably expensive..

No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all
conditions, just something to take the edge off.

That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not
for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the
coast of New England.

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

The Spray had several advantages that you might lack when it comes
to setting up the boat to self-steer:

1. A full keel to make the boat more stable in holding a course.
2. A yawl rig.

The yawl (or a ketch) rig makes it easier to balance the sails for
limited self steering.

Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on
course?

I was able to keep my Islander 24 (full keel sloop) on course for
15 to 20 minutes in light seas and moderate winds by doing the
following:

1. Trim the sails for a moderate amount of weather helm
2. Attach a bungee cord from the tiller to the weather
cockpit coaming.
3 run the main sheet through a block on the leeward cockpit
coaming and to a jam cleat on the tiller. (4-part tackle
on the mainsheet)
3. Adjust tension on the bungee cord until it pulled hard
enough to overcome the weather helm and mainsheet pull.

If the boat fell off to leeward, the extra strain on the
mainsheet overcame the bungee and pulled the tiller to leeward.

If the boat pointed too high, reduced tension on the main
sheet allowed the bungee to pull the helm to weather.

This system worked only over a narrow range of courses and
wind speeds. I could go below for a few minutes if the
wind was somewhere between 30 degrees off the bow to
about 20 degrees aft of the beam. With some watching
and tweaking, it could get me time to eat lunch and
read a guide book or charts for a while.

I would never trust it with the wind further aft for fear
of an unintentional jibe.

I did try one of the simply plywood vanes with lines to
the tiller for a while. It never worked very well except
under optimum conditions. In light winds, there
was just too little energy to pull the tiller lines.

I never did take that boat very far offshore, and traffic
in San Francisco Bay wasn't very amenable to an
untended helm in any case, so the bungee/tiller/sheet
arrangement served for head calls and snacks.

If the winds were light and aft of the beam, heaving to
was the alternative.


SNIP

Mark Borgerson

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 20:51:32 -0400, DSK wrote:



Okay, Doug. Please describe the windvane setup on your own sailboat. Oh,
you
don't have a windvane OR a sailboat? Well, can you then describe the
windvane on
a sailboatt you USED to have? Oh, you've never had a sailboat with a
windvane?
Okay... What's that Doug? You say that your crusing in sailboats consisted
of
dragging a Hunter 19 on a trailer down the highway? WOW!

CWM
=========================

Charlie ,, you are a cruel man ... but I must say I am laughing out loud.
Old DSK must be smoking after your posting.

Rig for ramming speed.

======================

I have been making progress in the self steering department ....

It seems that the sheet to tiller self steering is not the best system, but
if it will work for a short time, that is all I need.

I have read lots and lots of info on the wind vane, very interesting
reading. While some swear by them, others go on and on about the problems
of weight, blah blah blah ... I might even get one some time but I am not
in need of one at this time.

See ya

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:57:11 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote:

I have read lots and lots of info on the wind vane, very interesting
reading. While some swear by them, others go on and on about the problems
of weight, blah blah blah ... I might even get one some time but I am not
in need of one at this time.

For day sailing and coastal cruising you will get a lot more utility
from an electronic tiller pilot - much less expensive, easy to set up,
works in light wind, down wind, no wind and under power.

As an added benefit they do not eat, drink or complain.

Wayne ,,,
"As an added benefit they do not eat, drink or complain."

Helloooooooo ... Wayne ..... ????

I am a man! As such, I put up with EAT, DRINK, COMPLAIN ......... to get
^%$#&*!

Humping a windvane is really not that much fun. And the sheet to tiller
self steering system? Last time a checked, no one has posted that the
system has a nice ass.

Now ... if I have a self steering system and a {&(*&^%} who wants to eat,
drink, and complain but also wants to &*&^%$#$


Wayne! You have provided the answer. After numerous postings, arguments,
contentious ravings, ... you have hit on the answer to the self steering
system question.

Paris Hilton! The Paris Hilton Self Steering Sheet to Tiller, Wind-Vane
system!

When your yacht is rigged with the PH, no need to leave the dock or mooring.
Therefore, no need for a steering system at all.

And it comes with the famous PH bumper sticker: WHEN THIS BOATS A ROCKIN,
PH HAS COME A KNOCKN

Thank you Wayne!

=======================


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:57:11 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote:

I have read lots and lots of info on the wind vane, very interesting
reading. While some swear by them, others go on and on about the problems
of weight, blah blah blah ... I might even get one some time but I am not
in need of one at this time.

For day sailing and coastal cruising you will get a lot more utility
from an electronic tiller pilot - much less expensive, easy to set up,
works in light wind, down wind, no wind and under power.

As an added benefit they do not eat, drink or complain.

I acknowledge that I have not tried it (being mostly a coastal sailor)
but there are directions for a DIY wind vane at
http://www.mindspring.com/~waltmur/Self-Steering/. Apparently you can
mount it to plywood that then gets attached to the transom for a test
drive. If you have the time and desire, and don't want to spend a lot
of money (and don't plan to sleep while it's working), you might try
this.

Steve Hayes
Augusta, Maine