On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:56:07 GMT, "Chi Chi"
wrote:

perhaps you needed a stiffer bungie cord?

One of the points that Letcher makes in his book, is that bungie cord
makes a lousy spring because of its non linear stretch
characteristics. He recommends surgical tubing instead.

That made sense to me so I went out to my local drug store, endured
their 3rd degree questioning regarding purpose, and took it to the
boat.

It didn't work either.

Wayne,, work or not ,,, I still can't figure out the attachment system.

On the lee side of the boat, away from the wind, the sheet gets pulled
tight, usually wrapped around a winch and then pulled tight and cleated.

On the wind side of the boat the sheet ( I am talking jib here ) is left
loose.. until the boat is tacked and then that side gets pulled in..

Now, if the tiller is attached to an elastic line, to a cleat ... ( like my
bungy cord system ) ,, the tiller needs to be controled from pulling into
the wind.. Or, on a starboard tack ,,,, the tiller needs to be controled
from moving to the direction of port .. that way the boat doesn't turn into
the wind..

Ok ok ok ... so how does the sheet on the loose side come into play, ,,
or does it?

This is what has me confused.... only one side has a tight sheet or a sheet
under pressure. Is the pressure side controling the non pressure side?


================

Even though this might not work... I must admit some interest after my bungy
cord system.

==================

I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.

I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.

=========
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:56:07 GMT, "Chi Chi"
wrote:

perhaps you needed a stiffer bungie cord?

One of the points that Letcher makes in his book, is that bungie cord
makes a lousy spring because of its non linear stretch
characteristics. He recommends surgical tubing instead.

That made sense to me so I went out to my local drug store, endured
their 3rd degree questioning regarding purpose, and took it to the
boat.

It didn't work either.

In woR%g.4294$Wp3.2820@trndny05 "NE Sailboat" writes:

I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.

I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.

The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.

If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.

Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality,
and probably expensive..

No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all
conditions, just something to take the edge off.

That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not
for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the
coast of New England.

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on
course?

As far as the "Vane" part of the system goes, even a dope like me can make
that. It is the stainless and pendulem etc that gets the trouble going.

Couldn't a vane be set up that would work with the tiller, but not a
permanent system?

I'm looking for the one hour wind vane. One hour to go below, take a s...t,
eat, grab some charts, change the music, get a wine for the boss,
............. then back top, sit behind the helm ,,..... and wait for boss
to drink said wine,,,,, then boss will get hot and come sit next to
helmsman,,,,,, and then .............................. ???????????????????
another hour of self steering is called for.


==============================
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In woR%g.4294$Wp3.2820@trndny05 "NE Sailboat"
writes:

I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.

I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.

The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.

If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

NE Sailboat wrote:
Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.

Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality,
and probably expensive..

No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all
conditions, just something to take the edge off.

That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not
for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the
coast of New England.

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

Slocum had no self steering. He'd balance the boat out and she'd self
steer ok once so balanced.

Beats me why you are making yourself crazy here. Many have told you that
we tried and it didn't work. Lauri did try and it worked so that means
it doesn't work for all boats and I'll tell you it won't work nearly as
well as a tiller master or vane.

How many replies saying we tried and it didn't work will it take?

"NE Sailboat" writes:
I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.


If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you
could never really afford a cruising boat anyway.


I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.


It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how!


Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.


It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat
stuff costs, anyway). The main expense would be getting the
frame strong & rigid enough, and after that, providing low
friction bearings to reduce working drag down to the point
where there is sufficient power to control the helm.


If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.


Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked
out in coordination with the boat's steering characteristics.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.


Or know how to make his own.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.


It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment.
Gear that is difficult to set on course properly, does not
follow a course accurately, is quirky about what condition
it will work at all, suffer minor breakdowns, etc etc, will
be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's worth.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In ebS%g.7278$ke4.1160@trndny02 "NE Sailboat" writes:

Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.

Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality,
and probably expensive..

No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all
conditions, just something to take the edge off.

Then you use it mainly in nice and easy conditions.

That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not
for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the
coast of New England.

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on
course?

If you reaad Joshua Slocums book about his circumnavigation he just tied
the tiller down. He said Spray would keep it's course for days.

As far as the "Vane" part of the system goes, even a dope like me can make
that. It is the stainless and pendulem etc that gets the trouble going.

I believe that if you look around you will find some stores that sell
various components for shelfs and storage systems and tarpaulin
supports, that have tubes and different kind of angled and straight
joining elements, so you can build anything you want.

Couldn't a vane be set up that would work with the tiller, but not a
permanent system?

There are some laws in physics about the energy, there are systems that
use the power created by the wane to steer the boat, but the wane is
then a small sail. Look more carefully to the system Sir Francis
Chichester used on his journeys.

I'm looking for the one hour wind vane. One hour to go below, take a s...t,
eat, grab some charts, change the music, get a wine for the boss,
............ then back top, sit behind the helm ,,..... and wait for boss
to drink said wine,,,,, then boss will get hot and come sit next to
helmsman,,,,,, and then .............................. ???????????????????
another hour of self steering is called for.

It is hard to make any realistic proposals without knowing more about
your boat. On the wind it should be easy just by using a shockcord or a
piece of rope, on a reach or a run it is more complicated. The
electronic tiller pilots are just done for this purpose and even the
small ones will do on nice conditions and then they do not draw too much
energy to ruin your batteries.

- Lauri Tarkkonen



==============================
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In woR%g.4294$Wp3.2820@trndny05 "NE Sailboat"
writes:

I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.

I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.

The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.

If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

In DSK writes:

"NE Sailboat" writes:
I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.


If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you
could never really afford a cruising boat anyway.


I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.


It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how!


Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.


It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat
stuff costs, anyway). The main expense would be getting the
frame strong & rigid enough, and after that, providing low
friction bearings to reduce working drag down to the point
where there is sufficient power to control the helm.

Do the low friction bearings come cheap? I thougt that here the price is
related the other way around, the more friction the cheaper. :-).

If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.


Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked
out in coordination with the boat's steering characteristics.

The geometry is worked out and with the tiller you have a continuous
adjustment, because you can attach the line pulling the tiller in
different postiions of the tiller, giving you control of the lever arm.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.


Or know how to make his own.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.


It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment.
Gear that is difficult to set on course properly, does not
follow a course accurately, is quirky about what condition
it will work at all, suffer minor breakdowns, etc etc, will
be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's worth.

This something I try to say, if you want a windvane, get a proper one,
if you want something to carry your boat while you are in the loo, a
tiller pilot is doing a decent job, and it doing it reasonably cheap,

I have a good windvane, but while motoring and if I want just a
temporary relief from the helm, I use the tillerpilot. If I know I am
going to sail for the next few hour or more, I rig the windvane.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

Did I say I could not afford $3k, or did I say that it would not be a good
investment for me as I am not planning a long ocean voyage.

If I am going to spend $3k, I want to spend it wisely. Where I moored last
summer there were numerous boats with wind vane systems, wind vane systems
that never ever got used. Dah ???

So, I posted for info about a less expensive and less reliable system; the
sheet to tiller system.

Now I am Mr Cheapo.

Sometimes I wonder ,, I really do.

===================================


"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
"NE Sailboat" writes:
I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.


If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you could never really
afford a cruising boat anyway.


I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use
the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.


It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how!


Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.


It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat stuff costs,
anyway). The main expense would be getting the frame strong & rigid
enough, and after that, providing low friction bearings to reduce working
drag down to the point where there is sufficient power to control the
helm.


If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked out in
coordination with the boat's steering characteristics.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

Or know how to make his own.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.


It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment. Gear that is
difficult to set on course properly, does not follow a course accurately,
is quirky about what condition it will work at all, suffer minor
breakdowns, etc etc, will be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's
worth.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In P%S%g.7320$ke4.5998@trndny02 "NE Sailboat" writes:



Did I say I could not afford $3k, or did I say that it would not be a good
investment for me as I am not planning a long ocean voyage.

If I am going to spend $3k, I want to spend it wisely. Where I moored last
summer there were numerous boats with wind vane systems, wind vane systems
that never ever got used. Dah ???

So, I posted for info about a less expensive and less reliable system; the
sheet to tiller system.

Now I am Mr Cheapo.

So far I know how to read, you were the one taking the word "cheap" into
the discussion. If we do not know about systems that work and are
reliable in various conditions and advice againts cheap solutions, I do
not see any reason to be offended.

There are always people who believe that they can by good and cheap, but
in most cases if you want to have GOOD and CHEAP, you end up needing two
things.

It is your prerogative to make whatever you please with your boat and
money, but if you do not like the advice or comments on this list,
remember they are at least cheap.

Sometimes I wonder ,, I really do.

So I wonder sometimes why people bother to give any advise here.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

===================================


"DSK" wrote in message
...
"NE Sailboat" writes:
I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.


If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you could never really
afford a cruising boat anyway.


I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use
the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.


It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how!


Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.


It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat stuff costs,
anyway). The main expense would be getting the frame strong & rigid
enough, and after that, providing low friction bearings to reduce working
drag down to the point where there is sufficient power to control the
helm.


If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked out in
coordination with the boat's steering characteristics.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

Or know how to make his own.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.


It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment. Gear that is
difficult to set on course properly, does not follow a course accurately,
is quirky about what condition it will work at all, suffer minor
breakdowns, etc etc, will be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's
worth.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King