"Vito" wrote in message
...
Hey, as long as people have more and more kids and encourage immigration
we're going to have more and more sewage. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing
about symptoms like not enough air, etc, etc, when the real problem is
too many people. Jeeze, one idiot over on rec.rv was whining about
development and keeping the wilderness for his kids to enjoy - all seven
of them!
Excuse the rant ...
Howard

You should have a look at the facts. The birthrate is just OK and US growth
rate is just 0.9%

"MLapla4120" wrote in message
...
The whole thing pales by comparison to what has happened on the Great
Lakes.
Last year the cities of Milwaukee, Racine and Kenosha dumped in excess of
TWO BILLION GALLONS of untreated sewerage into Lake Michigan!!!


In this country, we are worried and on the lookout for terrorists who
threaten
to disrupt our economy, quality of life, and ways of life. Has anyone
considered
that this has been happening for years by polluters who destroy fisheries,
recreational areas and drinking water supplies? The bodies of water are
the
golden goose and they destroy with impunity.

The 'polluters' we're talking about here are not evil, greedy multinational
corporations -- they are cities and towns who lack the funds to upgrade
antiquated sewer systems immediately. Even so, these discharges are much
less common than they used to be and the Great Lakes are much cleaner (30
years ago, Lake Erie was considered 'dead' -- now it is clear and full of
fish). After all, it used to be that raw sewage was dumped into the lakes
routinely.

Mark

"RaBi" wrote in message
...

"Larry" wrote in message
...
On 12 Aug 2003 12:15:26 GMT, (Wwj2110) wrote:
excuse in 1989, the plants were backflushed into the river creating an
environmental disaster that the river still feels to this day, 14
years later. The river smelled just like the sewer for over a year
before the tide finally flushed it out enough it didn't just stink.
They dump about 14,000,000 gallons of "treated wastewater", whatever
the hell that means, into it DAILY. The Ashley River IS the
sewer......

Probably the US in general is not really up to date when it comes to
protecting environment? I'm just thinking about the rotten cars that you
find in many backyards, plastic & foam stuff wrapped around the burgers,
countless plastic bags, cars with low fuel efficiency, no wind/solar
energy
concept, the refusal to sign the Kyoto protocol, ...


I think you check, you'll find that the US is ahead of the most of the world
in environmental protection (with the notable exception of Kyoto). We don't
have all the dirty, particulate-spewing diesel-powered passenger cars. Our
cars are not fuel efficient on average but they're clean -- in the rest of
the world they may be more efficient but they're dirtier. For example,
catalytic converters were introduced in the US in 1974 but weren't required
by law in Europe until 1993:

http://www.uyseg.org/catalysis/catalytic/cat1.htm

And, in fact, the US environment is far cleaner than it used to be. Waters
are much cleaner than a generation ago, air also. Huge amounts of forest
have regrown in the last century. Sewage discharges remain a problem in
some areas, but they're not nearly the problem they once were.
Double-crested Cormorants, once a threatened species in the era of DDT are
now becoming a nuisance in the Great Lakes and Bald Eagles are now a fairly
common sight. Even the range of large predators are expanding (wolves,
bears, mtn lions).

Mark

Aha! THAT's the reason for the millions of "Moon Eyes" washed up on
the beach at Fair Haven Beach State Park where I grew up in my
father's umbrella tent in the camping area each summer! Man MOON EYES
STINK!



On 12 Aug 2003 19:51:46 GMT, (Wwj2110) wrote:

I, personally, think the sewage plants, run by a government
bureaucracy that's not accountable to anyone but itself, is mostly a
big lie.

well done larry!

creek & rivers up here in western NY are of not much concern to most
people.Thats because they have never seen a clean one.
Ive seen small creeks that cant even support a spec of life .Ive followed the
creek where i keep my sailboat, to its origin. It begins at a shut down
chemical plant where I observed a light brown dust covering the bottom & no
plant life within 3' of the creekbank. As it continues, straight pipes from
individual septic tanks , & 2 sewage treatment plants liven it up a bit. The
way the PPM requirment is satisfied is by adding canal water to dilute the
concoction. Farther downstream we have a few food processing plants. All of
this input enters lake ontario & if theres not enough rain to wash it out, a
huge 18" thick cake of steaming **** called "cladifora" floats at the entrance
& sometimes blocks me in or out of the creek. the DEC & EPA are no help. they
just blow smoke up my ass

Larry

Extremely intelligent life must exist in the universe.
You can tell because they never tried to contact us.

RaBi wrote:

"Vito" wrote in message
...


Hey, as long as people have more and more kids and encourage immigration
we're going to have more and more sewage. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing
about symptoms like not enough air, etc, etc, when the real problem is
too many people. Jeeze, one idiot over on rec.rv was whining about
development and keeping the wilderness for his kids to enjoy - all seven
of them!
Excuse the rant ...
Howard



You should have a look at the facts. The birthrate is just OK and US growth
rate is just 0.9%


For at least the last couple of decades, the US birthrate have been
lower than the death rate. All growth has been immigration, legal and
illegal. That's pretty common in countries with higher standards of living.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Mark Weaver wrote:

"Larry" wrote in message
.. .


Boats don't produce "sewage", a mixture of dangerous chemicals, heavy
metals, amazingly toxic biology bred by long trips in hot pipes
underground.

Boats produce the same thing as whales, bottlenosed dolphins, and a
billion other species that dump into the sea soup mix of recyclable
materials........unless you put it in a holding tank and TURN it into
sewage with chemical crap out of a bottle and store it for a month.
THEN, it's sewage!

Human waste is just as much food, on a much smaller scale, as whale
waste if you flush it directly overboard.




No, that's wrong. Dumping human (and animal) waste into the waters has
effects that fish and whale poop don't because human and domestic animal
waste contain bacteria which are dangerous to human health. This is why
beaches are closed when levels of E Coli and fecal coliform bacteria are too
high (which happens when sewage systems overflow).


E Coli and similar are natural, even though dangerous when too
concentrated. On the Chesapeake's Eastern shore, they were really
confused about high E.Coli counts in areas where there were no
significant human sources. The culprits wound up being the raccoons who
flourish in the face of virtually no predators.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

What the heck is a "moon eye"?

--


Keith
__
Backup not found. [A]bort, [R]etry, [P]anic...
"Larry" wrote in message
...
Aha! THAT's the reason for the millions of "Moon Eyes" washed up on
the beach at Fair Haven Beach State Park where I grew up in my
father's umbrella tent in the camping area each summer! Man MOON EYES
STINK!



On 12 Aug 2003 19:51:46 GMT, (Wwj2110) wrote:

I, personally, think the sewage plants, run by a government
bureaucracy that's not accountable to anyone but itself, is mostly a
big lie.

well done larry!

creek & rivers up here in western NY are of not much concern to most
people.Thats because they have never seen a clean one.
Ive seen small creeks that cant even support a spec of life .Ive
followed the
creek where i keep my sailboat, to its origin. It begins at a shut down
chemical plant where I observed a light brown dust covering the bottom &
no
plant life within 3' of the creekbank. As it continues, straight pipes
from
individual septic tanks , & 2 sewage treatment plants liven it up a bit.
The
way the PPM requirment is satisfied is by adding canal water to dilute
the
concoction. Farther downstream we have a few food processing plants. All
of
this input enters lake ontario & if theres not enough rain to wash it
out, a
huge 18" thick cake of steaming **** called "cladifora" floats at the
entrance
& sometimes blocks me in or out of the creek. the DEC & EPA are no help.
they
just blow smoke up my ass

Larry

Extremely intelligent life must exist in the universe.
You can tell because they never tried to contact us.

"Mark Weaver" wrote in message
...
I think you check, you'll find that the US is ahead of the most of the
world
in environmental protection (with the notable exception of Kyoto).
ACK - compared to most of the world including third world countries but not
compared to industrial countries in Europe

We don't
have all the dirty, particulate-spewing diesel-powered passenger cars.
Diesel particles are no major environmental issue, filters / catalytic
converters are on the way and modern engines aren't that dirty. And from an
efficiency point of view diesel engines are much better. Just go and check
fuel efficiency of current Mercedes CDI or Volkswagen/Audi TDI engines and
you get the picture. 40-50 miles per gallon are no marketing hype - they are
real and achieveable under normal circumstances.
Fuel is still very, very cheap in the US so nobody cares about efficiency.


Our
cars are not fuel efficient on average but they're clean -- in the rest of
the world they may be more efficient but they're dirtier.
? I have traveled most countries of Europe and have been several times to
the US and my perceived impression quite different. (Except if you compare
the US to 3rd world countries).
I agree that most cars in the US are modern clean but inefficient cars but
there are many old / unmaintained cars on the road which pollute the air.
You won't find that number here in Europe (cars have to go to emisison check
every 2 years in Germany and similar regulations exist throughout Europe).

For example,
catalytic converters were introduced in the US in 1974 but weren't
required
by law in Europe until 1993:

http://www.uyseg.org/catalysis/catalytic/cat1.htm

Introduced does not mean required. You are comparing apples & oranges here.
What was the real deployment rate of converters? And are people forced to
maintain them? Are public / army vehicles required to have converters? I
remember that most waste management and army cars blow huge black clouds!

And, in fact, the US environment is far cleaner than it used to be.
Still not as good as it could be. One major problem I see is the throw-away
lifestyle.

IMHO the US has an advanced economy but is far behind in environmental
protection. US should start with signing Kyoto. And probably stop using
plastic/foam for throw-away stuff like coffee cups & burger wrappers (paper
works, too).

My point in the original post was that the government allows large
sewage discharges into our waterways with apparently little or no long
term impact in many areas. The posts here and in previous threads
verify that it is not just an isolated example. Most boats stay on
trailers or at the peer most of the time. I do not believe there are
that many pleasure boats cruising around the east coast, yet they seem
to have zeroed in on pleasure craft as a major contributor. Writing to
my congress men didn't seem to have any impact. How did this happen to
us and how can we get out of it?

Ron

To lazy to get out of my Lazy boy where the Webtv is hooked to a large
screen to do this from my dual processor server or P IV, 2 gig
workstation that are 15 feet away.

Mark Weaver wrote:


You don't get to 'disagree' on this one -- you're wrong.

Mark, FWIW you're talking to a dial tone here. "Larry" used to talk like he had
some sense, but nowadays he has joined the ranks of brainless right-wing whackos
who cannot accept a plain fact... if it doesn't bolster their prejudices, it's
wrong no matter if they just saw it for themselves with their own eyes...

Thanks for the link, but don't waste your time trying to argue with "Larry."

DSK