"Wayne.B" wrote

What you are missing is the "prudent man" thing.

The rules require you to be prudent. They do not require you to use
the radio. I did a prudent thing which is exactly spelled out in the
rules.

The skipper of the yacht has no way from his bridge of assessing my
prudence however and that could get him in trouble some day.

--

Roger Long

There was no conflicting traffic. I was alone on the boat.

--

Roger Long

"Gary" wrote

Furthermore, if (a radio) is onboard why wouldn't you make best use
of it as required by the Colregs?

(I interpret the rules to say that if you have one you must use it.
Just like radar etc. "all available means")

Gary

The fact that I chose to resolve this situation without the use of the
radio has nothing to do with the behavior of the yacht.

Your position that you "must" use a radio would imply that you must
talk to every vessel you cross. Do you really do that? Do you really
think that on a Sunday afternoon in a busy harbor every boat out there
should be making calls about every crossing? Many crossing situations
would be over before the participants could figure out which white
sailboat or Searay they were talking about.

I made extensive use of the radio at untowered airports back when I
was flying so I've got a good idea of the theory and practice of
non-directional verbal communication as used to avoid collisions. The
biggest problem in aviation radio use, where almost everyone is
talking, if frequency congestion. The major cause of near misses and
collisions is confusion about whether the Cessna 172 you are talking
to is the one you see ahead or the one 100 feet below and behind you
who can't see you through his wing.

The primary thing keeping air traffic straightened out where there is
no ATC or tower is everyone following right of way rules and behaving
in a predictable fashion. The radio is a secondary back up. As soon
as pilots start using the radio as the primary tool, relying on it
rather than proper behavior, things get hairy. This happens a lot
because there are ass holes in the air as well as on the water.

The common aviation equivalent of what we have been discussing is the
twin engine aircraft. Typically, everyone in their singles and the
well behaved twins will be fitting into the traffic pattern, reporting
their positions, maintaining spacing in an orderly fashion, and
landing in nice sequence. Suddenly there will be a call, "Baron
N23ASS on long final 18 straight in" Everyone has to peel off,
scatter to in all directions, figure out where everyone is again and
set up the traffic pattern while the twin is tying down and getting
the last available courtesy car.

--

Roger Long

"Wayne.B" wrote

Sailing single handed in a strong breeze does not excuse anyone from
seamanlike obligations or responsibilities

Why is there no comment about being 228 feet long and owned by someone
richer than God not excusing an operator from seamanlike obligations
or responsibilities?

(the radio) could/should have been readily at hand and turned on

The radio is a back up. Contact is not necessary for the rules of the
road to be in force. Radio break, not all boats have radios,
operating a vessel in this situation with the expectation that you
don't have to observe the rules of the road unless you get a radio
call is neither seamanlike nor responsible.

, sail could/should have been shortened to a more managable level,
an
autopilot could/should be available when single or short handing.

Come on, that's like saying all powerboats should be operated slower
because it will give everyone more time to react to crossing
situations. My vessel was quite managable. It's not that I couldn't
get the radio but that it was easier to simply run off. I ended up
closer to Ram Island than I would have liked but I still cleared it.


You have some dangerous preconceptions.

Look, this is not about me. I handled it smoothly and easily. I
expect this kind of "blind on autopilot" behavior from fishing
vessels. Their crews are dead tired and their world is crumbling
around them as they try to keep up with mortgages. I also expect it
from large vessels that I selfishly don't want dodging every small
yacht among the obstructions of Maine, even if they aren't in the
channel.

My post was about the fact that a no expense spared vessel, presumably
with crew of similar caliber to the paint job, whose Captain and crew
had just spent two weeks tied to the dock in Portland's most luxurious
spot, could behave this way with no way of assessing skill level,
radio functioning (or even existence), etc. aboard my vessel. The
rules of the road don't require them to think about these things, they
simply require them to punch 2 -3 degrees into the autopilot for five
minutes at the appropriate time and then back. There is nothing in
the rules of the road that says they don't have to do this unless
there is radio contact.

If I had been closely obstructed by the shore or had a sheet jammed in
a winch, I certainly would have made a radio call. I could have done
it but it was easier to just divert it a way that made it obvious I
was going to keep clear. I handled it properly and differently than
you might have but THAT'S NOT THE DAMN POINT!

--

Roger Long

In article ydzzg.289377$iF6.117034@pd7tw2no,
Gary wrote:

I don't think that VHF radios are required on small pleasure craft but I
wonder why everybody wouldn't have one as a basic safety onboard safety
item?

You would think. And also a GPS so you would know where you were if
you got into trouble. I often hear (on the radio) where someone is
lost and has no idea where they are - complicated by the fact that
there are several different places with the same name in the
Chesapeake.

But there are indeed boats with no radios, or at least they aren't
using them. In 2002 when we were coming north from Ft. Pierce, I
wrote:

There is a large white wooden ketch from Montreal which has been
behind us, but was slowly catching up to us. He was behind us
yesterday, and must have stopped somewhere behind us, and he's behind
us again, although he is slowly reeling us in. Four power boats went
by him, and he was yawing and pitching wildly in their wake. They went
by us too. We have the sail up to steady us though, and we don't pitch
as much.

He eventually catches us, and we follow him through the Matanzas
Inlet, and don't go aground although the alarm goes off a couple of
times. The TowBoatUS guy that appears to be stationed here permanently
is fishing from his boat. A boat with a round bow that looks like a
little tug named CLOONFUSH passed us. It has a medallion figurehead
lion on the front.

When we came to the last bridge before the San Sebastian River, I
called the bridge (as I usually did) to request an opening. The
bridge tender asked me if we knew what were the intentions of a boat
which he said was anchored there in front of the bridge. It was the
big white wooden ketch, with a red kayak as a dinghy. It appeared to
be skippered by a single hander from Canada.

I didn't know what to tell the bridge tender of course, but as we came
up to him, we saw him hastily pulling his anchor, so I reported to the
bridge that he had apparently been waiting for someone else to go
through the bridge because he either didn't have a radio or didn't
know how to hail the bridge. So he went through with us, and stuck
close behind us (we'd also passed him north of Titusville and he was
going a lot slower than we were then).

We got to the turn off, and he started to come up the Sebastian River
with us. I think he thought he could to go through the Bridge of Lions
with us but was foiled because we weren't going there.

grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html

Rosalie B. wrote:
In article ydzzg.289377$iF6.117034@pd7tw2no,
Gary wrote:

I don't think that VHF radios are required on small pleasure craft but I
wonder why everybody wouldn't have one as a basic safety onboard safety
item?


You would think. And also a GPS so you would know where you were if
you got into trouble. I often hear (on the radio) where someone is
lost and has no idea where they are - complicated by the fact that
there are several different places with the same name in the
Chesapeake.

But there are indeed boats with no radios, or at least they aren't
using them. In 2002 when we were coming north from Ft. Pierce, I
wrote:

There is a large white wooden ketch from Montreal which has been
behind us, but was slowly catching up to us. He was behind us
yesterday, and must have stopped somewhere behind us, and he's behind
us again, although he is slowly reeling us in. Four power boats went
by him, and he was yawing and pitching wildly in their wake. They went
by us too. We have the sail up to steady us though, and we don't pitch
as much.

He eventually catches us, and we follow him through the Matanzas
Inlet, and don't go aground although the alarm goes off a couple of
times. The TowBoatUS guy that appears to be stationed here permanently
is fishing from his boat. A boat with a round bow that looks like a
little tug named CLOONFUSH passed us. It has a medallion figurehead
lion on the front.

When we came to the last bridge before the San Sebastian River, I
called the bridge (as I usually did) to request an opening. The
bridge tender asked me if we knew what were the intentions of a boat
which he said was anchored there in front of the bridge. It was the
big white wooden ketch, with a red kayak as a dinghy. It appeared to
be skippered by a single hander from Canada.

I didn't know what to tell the bridge tender of course, but as we came
up to him, we saw him hastily pulling his anchor, so I reported to the
bridge that he had apparently been waiting for someone else to go
through the bridge because he either didn't have a radio or didn't
know how to hail the bridge. So he went through with us, and stuck
close behind us (we'd also passed him north of Titusville and he was
going a lot slower than we were then).

We got to the turn off, and he started to come up the Sebastian River
with us. I think he thought he could to go through the Bridge of Lions
with us but was foiled because we weren't going there.

grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html

Sounds like he liked the 'cut of your jib'....or at least the shape of
your stern. ;-)

Oops, I must have misread or G misremembered something......I thought you
had people below.
As for conflicting traffic, I often find in these discussions that there is
multiple traffic in the area and although the person discussing the
situation thinks that they are the prime situation, after some talking it
becomes apparent that there may have been more than two vessels meeting and
the possibility exist that they are/were not the most dangerous target from
the standpoint of the vessel they had a problem with.
Whenever talking about large vessels versus smaller (having been there done
that from both sides) I try and stress that there is no one right answer and
you need to be ready for them to pull the "Rule of GT".

otn

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
There was no conflicting traffic. I was alone on the boat.

--

Roger Long

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...

In article ydzzg.289377$iF6.117034@pd7tw2no,
Gary wrote:

I don't think that VHF radios are required on small pleasure craft but I
wonder why everybody wouldn't have one as a basic safety onboard safety
item?

You would think. And also a GPS so you would know where you were if
you got into trouble. I often hear (on the radio) where someone is
lost and has no idea where they are - complicated by the fact that
there are several different places with the same name in the
Chesapeake.

I'm fairly leery of relying on GPS for most anything when simple observation
is available. Maybe someday with AIS and other technologies you'll be able
to see all the hazards on the water without looking around, but I don't thnk
that'll happen any time soon. It's great for a general idea of where you are
and where you're going. Beyond that on inland waters, I don't use it, except
for fun.

Sounds like a good idea in the Chesapeake of course.

But there are indeed boats with no radios, or at least they aren't
using them. In 2002 when we were coming north from Ft. Pierce, I
wrote:

There is a large white wooden ketch from Montreal which has been
behind us, but was slowly catching up to us. He was behind us
yesterday, and must have stopped somewhere behind us, and he's behind
us again, although he is slowly reeling us in. Four power boats went
by him, and he was yawing and pitching wildly in their wake. They went
by us too. We have the sail up to steady us though, and we don't pitch
as much.

He eventually catches us, and we follow him through the Matanzas
Inlet, and don't go aground although the alarm goes off a couple of
times. The TowBoatUS guy that appears to be stationed here permanently
is fishing from his boat. A boat with a round bow that looks like a
little tug named CLOONFUSH passed us. It has a medallion figurehead
lion on the front.

I like the bigger boat theory... if it can go there, so can I. :-)


When we came to the last bridge before the San Sebastian River, I
called the bridge (as I usually did) to request an opening. The
bridge tender asked me if we knew what were the intentions of a boat
which he said was anchored there in front of the bridge. It was the
big white wooden ketch, with a red kayak as a dinghy. It appeared to
be skippered by a single hander from Canada.

I didn't know what to tell the bridge tender of course, but as we came
up to him, we saw him hastily pulling his anchor, so I reported to the
bridge that he had apparently been waiting for someone else to go
through the bridge because he either didn't have a radio or didn't
know how to hail the bridge. So he went through with us, and stuck
close behind us (we'd also passed him north of Titusville and he was
going a lot slower than we were then).

He was waiting for you! :-)

We got to the turn off, and he started to come up the Sebastian River
with us. I think he thought he could to go through the Bridge of Lions
with us but was foiled because we weren't going there.

grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html

Let me start by saying that I am in favor of using the radio
but I can see Roger's point.


"Wayne.B" wrote
Sailing single handed in a strong breeze does not excuse anyone from
seamanlike obligations or responsibilities


He didn't abidcate any of his responsibilities, nor do
anything unseamanlike.

Roger Long wrote:
Why is there no comment about being 228 feet long and owned by someone
richer than God not excusing an operator from seamanlike obligations
or responsibilities?


Just because.... maybe it's "Pick On Roger Day" or maybe the
secret powerboat cabal is working overtime to prove you're
really the one at fault here.


(the radio) could/should have been readily at hand and turned on


Agreed.


The radio is a back up.

Hmm, that is an interesting point of view... would you say
that out loud in an Admiralty court?

... Contact is not necessary for the rules of the
road to be in force.

True

Radio break, not all boats have radios,

True

Another issue that nobody has brought up yet is that radio
communication often is not fully or clearly understood,
leading to a different response than might be desirable.
Also, radio communication takes time and when two vessels
are on a collision course that can be a very precious commodity.


operating a vessel in this situation with the expectation that you
don't have to observe the rules of the road unless you get a radio
call is neither seamanlike nor responsible.


Very true


, sail could/should have been shortened to a more managable level,
an
autopilot could/should be available when single or short handing.


Come on, that's like saying all powerboats should be operated slower
because it will give everyone more time to react to crossing
situations.

It's like saying all sailboats should douse sail and start
using motors every time any other vessel is anywhere near
them. It's like saying stand-on vessels must maintain speed
& course even if it puts thme up on the rocks.

Why not just make boating illegal. It'd be safer and
eliminate a lot of confusion... cheaper too


My vessel was quite managable. It's not that I couldn't
get the radio but that it was easier to simply run off. I ended up
closer to Ram Island than I would have liked but I still cleared it.


And there is certainly some virtue in taking unilateral
action, rather than equivocate and say "Gee I should use the
radio." But then to some extent, you also forfeit your right
to complain about the other guy's lack of obedience to ColRegs.

For all you know, that captain may have been watching you...
maybe his computerized radar keeping a constant real-time
plot of your projected course and CPA... and saying to
himself, 'If that guy doesn't either tack or get a header in
the next 20 seconds, I've going to turn a few degrees and
give him a little more sea room.' Then he saw you alter
course, and said to himself 'hmm, he did get a header, I
don't have to.'



My post was about the fact that a no expense spared vessel, presumably
with crew of similar caliber to the paint job, whose Captain and crew
had just spent two weeks tied to the dock in Portland's most luxurious
spot, could behave this way with no way of assessing skill level,
radio functioning (or even existence), etc. aboard my vessel. The
rules of the road don't require them to think about these things, they
simply require them to punch 2 -3 degrees into the autopilot for five
minutes at the appropriate time and then back.

Yeah, that would have been nice.

FWIW there has been a perceived decline in the
professionalism of professional captains along the ICW down
here, too. And a lot more weekend warrior jackasses in Sea
Rays, too.


... There is nothing in
the rules of the road that says they don't have to do this unless
there is radio contact.


True.
But there is no reason for you to raise such a storm of
kvetching. You don't know what that captain intended or was
about to do.


If I had been closely obstructed by the shore or had a sheet jammed in
a winch, I certainly would have made a radio call.

And others have just been trying to make the point that the
radio is often not considered a last resort.

... I could have done
it but it was easier to just divert it a way that made it obvious I
was going to keep clear. I handled it properly and differently than
you might have but THAT'S NOT THE DAMN POINT!


Well, for some people it is

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...

The common aviation equivalent of what we have been discussing is the
twin engine aircraft. Typically, everyone in their singles and the
well behaved twins will be fitting into the traffic pattern, reporting
their positions, maintaining spacing in an orderly fashion, and
landing in nice sequence. Suddenly there will be a call, "Baron
N23ASS on long final 18 straight in" Everyone has to peel off,
scatter to in all directions, figure out where everyone is again and
set up the traffic pattern while the twin is tying down and getting
the last available courtesy car.

Been there and done that, but didn't buy the T-shirt.

Leanne