GBM wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
I have a switch near the stove, and another at the breaker panel -
being a cat its appropriate to be able to shut it off from either
hull. Given that either of these two could momentarily shut off the
gas, it would seem that the only solution is to do all of the following:
a) never leave the stove unattended
b) appreciate what what happens if a switch is turned off and on
c) have a sniffer running whenever gas might be used
d) have a thermostatic shutoff on the stove

Have a problem with last one for an old stove!

Well, you do what you can. Obviously your problem can exist unless
you hardwire to the battery - its seems you need at least one switch.
I think of the second switch as a safety feature, increasing the
odds I'll turn off the solenoid, rather than a liability.


2. Propane Detectors
assuming you have spare switches, put the gas in series with the
sniffer, so you can sniff without gas, but can't turn on the gas
without the sniffer.

I don't like this - The detectors take a minute or so to initialize and
confirm things are safe. I want the detectors to be on and the area safe,
BEFORE I turn on the propane and light the stove. To do this, I should
probably connect sniffers to the main panel feed.

What I meant was to have the solenoid breaker off the sniffer breaker
such that you could turn on the sniffer first and wait for a minute
before turning on the gas, but you couldn't turn on the gas without
the sniffer. I don't know if the combination sniffer/solenoid switch
has a built in delay, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it
manually.

It seems to me that you don't like the thought of a switch panel that
might be misused. I must admit the on my previous boat, it was too
close to the settee, and on two occasions the fridge got turned off by
mistake, leading to some unpleasantness! Why not have a special panel
with a cover over it?

OK, I misread the OP's problem... And as a result of reading the other
responses I now understand... I also will be redrawing the propane
solenoid electrical on my boat as a result, keeping the mechanical
timer safety switch and adding a self latching relay...

The issue is momentary loss of power that interrupts propane flow which
then comes back on and allows the propane to flow again, with no pilot
light as a result of the interruption..

What I will now do is add a relay in the solenoid's +12v line... This
will be a self latching relay using a normally open contact to keep the
relay powered once it is actuated... When the 12V is interrupted the
relay drops out (opens all contacts) and will not pull in (close the
contacts) until the operator presses the START button again...
This is standard on most power machinery, table saws, etc., where you
do not want the saw suddenly starting as you are changing the blade and
your helper sees the power cord is unplugged and "helpfully" sticks the
plug back in the wall...
Any ABYC electrician should know how to add a self latching relay to
your propane solenoid circuit...


denny

the solenoid will default to a closed state if you lose power ...the poiwer
opens the valve .....if its on a timer it should be a very safe system
....and you do not want to hot wire it as the solenoid could short and the
fuse stopping the gas flow ...(safe) or if hotwired it cdould be shorting
and remain energized

"GBM" wrote in message
...
Two questions:

1. Remote Solenoid switch

My Seaward propane switch is powered from the main panel supply. But this
could be a potential safety problem. If the main panel switch/breaker
trips
or is accidentally switched on and off, the propane solenoid will switch
on
and off and could cause propane to flow to an unlit stove.

Should the propane switch be hot wired from the house battery?

2. Propane Detectors

My propane detectors (have two) are powered from a fused switch on the
main
panel. This means we must remember to turn them on before activating the
propane solenoid.

Should the detectors be:
- hot wired to the battery like bilge pump (not good because of continuous
battery drain.)
- wired to main battery switch (so they come on whenever we have power
turned on from house batteries)
- wired so they activate when solenoid switch is turned on (probably not
good due to start-up delay in detectors.)

Does ABYC address this? How are modern boats wired for propane? (OK - that
two more questions )

GBM

"Jeff" wrote

What I meant was to have the solenoid breaker off the sniffer breaker
such that you could turn on the sniffer first and wait for a minute
before turning on the gas, but you couldn't turn on the gas without
the sniffer. I don't know if the combination sniffer/solenoid switch
has a built in delay, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it
manually.

I think this may be the easiest thing to do to ensure the sniffers are on
before the propane is switched on. I will probably leave the sniffer switch
in ON position so that sniffers come on when main panel switch is turned on.


It seems to me that you don't like the thought of a switch panel that
might be misused. I must admit the on my previous boat, it was too
close to the settee, and on two occasions the fridge got turned off by
mistake, leading to some unpleasantness! Why not have a special panel
with a cover over it?

That is my problem too - the fridge and main panel breaker/switches are on
front side of nav station seat. The refrig is a normal magnetic switch
breaker and less likely to be accidentally switched, but the 100A main panel
breaker is a Bussman type and has a push trip button that is easy to trip
with foot. I will look at putting a guard over it or maybe relocate and use
location for windlass breaker (next project!)

Thanks for suggestions!

GBM

Denny,
Yes - that is the issue - Sorry if my original post was not clear.

I like the idea of the relay. Any suggestions as to a suitable 12v panel
mount relay with push button reset? I did a quick look through my stuff but
did not find anything suitable.

GBM


"Denny" wrote in message
ups.com...
OK, I misread the OP's problem... And as a result of reading the other
responses I now understand... I also will be redrawing the propane
solenoid electrical on my boat as a result, keeping the mechanical
timer safety switch and adding a self latching relay...

The issue is momentary loss of power that interrupts propane flow which
then comes back on and allows the propane to flow again, with no pilot
light as a result of the interruption..

What I will now do is add a relay in the solenoid's +12v line... This
will be a self latching relay using a normally open contact to keep the
relay powered once it is actuated... When the 12V is interrupted the
relay drops out (opens all contacts) and will not pull in (close the
contacts) until the operator presses the START button again...
This is standard on most power machinery, table saws, etc., where you
do not want the saw suddenly starting as you are changing the blade and
your helper sees the power cord is unplugged and "helpfully" sticks the
plug back in the wall...
Any ABYC electrician should know how to add a self latching relay to
your propane solenoid circuit...


denny

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:34:46 -0400, "GBM"
wrote:


"Peter Bennett" wrote

I believe that ABYC requires the propane solenoid valve to be
controlled by the propane detector.


I would be interested to know just what they say.

It seems that I was mistaken - they don't mention propane detectors
where they talk about the solenoid valve.

They do require that the solenoid valve can be operated from the
vicinity of the stove or other appliance, without having to reach over
the stove.

I like the relay idea that another poster suggested - any 12 volt
relay with a single pole normally open contact that can handle the
solenoid current ( 1 amp or less, I think) would do. Connect the "On"
button in parallel with the relay contacts, and the hot side of the
coil to the load side of the contacts - pressing the "On" button will
then energize the solenoid and the relay - when the relay contact
closes, it will take over, and supply power to its own coil and to the
solenoid. You could connect a normally closed "Off" button between
the relay contact and the hot side of the coil.

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

How old is that stove? My 1984 stove has the thermo couple shutoff. My
guess is that it is not a "Marine" stove. If the solenoid was not connected
to the breaker, it would require a fuse. Suggest that you paint the propane
breaker with red nail polish, so that you don't flip it off by accident.
The stove should have thermo cutoffs, cooking at sea, I find extra burners
turned on when passed by swaying crew.
Lee Haefele
Nauticat 33 Alesto, Ithaca, NY

I have a switch near the stove, and another at the breaker panel -
being a cat its appropriate to be able to shut it off from either
hull. Given that either of these two could momentarily shut off the
gas, it would seem that the only solution is to do all of the following:
a) never leave the stove unattended
b) appreciate what what happens if a switch is turned off and on
c) have a sniffer running whenever gas might be used
d) have a thermostatic shutoff on the stove

Have a problem with last one for an old stove!

"Lee Haefele" wrote in message
.. .
How old is that stove? My 1984 stove has the thermo couple shutoff. My
guess is that it is not a "Marine" stove. If the solenoid was not
connected to the breaker, it would require a fuse. Suggest that you paint
the propane breaker with red nail polish, so that you don't flip it off by
accident. The stove should have thermo cutoffs, cooking at sea, I find
extra burners turned on when passed by swaying crew.
Lee Haefele
Nauticat 33 Alesto, Ithaca, NY

I have a switch near the stove, and another at the breaker panel -
being a cat its appropriate to be able to shut it off from either
hull. Given that either of these two could momentarily shut off the
gas, it would seem that the only solution is to do all of the following:
a) never leave the stove unattended
b) appreciate what what happens if a switch is turned off and on
c) have a sniffer running whenever gas might be used
d) have a thermostatic shutoff on the stove

Have a problem with last one for an old stove!



The 1983 Hillerange in my boat did not have thermocouple shutoffs at the
burners.
When I took the CYA cruising certification many years ago the instructor
said all marine stoves had thermocouple shutoffs. A while later a group of
us chartered a C&C 38 with me as skipper. Around dinner time I noticed
someone had turned on a stove burner and I could hear gas coming out. Well,
there were not shutoffs on this stove. I complained to the charter folks
that there were no signs warning of this but they said it was my
responsibility to inspect everything on the boat before using it. I guess
they didn't really care if someone blew up the boat.
These days I have a new Plastimo with thermocouple shutoffs.