First, they are not SURVIVAL SUITS!

Gumby Suits yes, IMMERSION Suits yes........ In no way should you ever
use the word SURVIVAL in your description. I can give you six personal
reasons why they are not survival suits. Each reason had a name and a
family and each are very dead. Each relied on their "survival suit." At
best, an IMMERSION suit does two things.............. 1) immersion
suits delay the onset of death by a few minutes. And I do mean minutes.
If you think you are going to jump off a boat and frolic about otter
like for 6-8 hours in 55 degree water waiting for that eventual rescue
you are dead wrong. With an emphasis on DEAD! 2) immersion suits allow
the USCG to spot your body a bit easier. That is what you can expect
from an immersion suit. Nothing more.

To consider an immersion suit a piece of equipment to rely on for
saving your unlucky body or allow you to survive is simple stupidity.

Advice: Attend a USCG sponsored "Survival at Sea" seminar designed
for commercial fisherman or Charterboat operators. Or go to your local
community college and enroll in one of the STCW-95 classes. Get an
offshore life raft AND an immersion suit for everyone on board. Learn
how to use both. No, not from West Marine. And then practice every few
months donning suit and deploying raft.

Do not start whining about how much it cost. If you do not follow this
advice be sure that you inform every person on your boat when they
abandon your boat they will die in about 120 minutes. Also explaine to
them at the same time you are such a cheep ******* you would rather
save a few bucks than save a few lives.

The most useless thing to do is read the yachting / sailboat / west
marine / Pardy advice.
Back Bobbing

Here is a good place to start for practical info.


http://www.amsea.org/commfish/index.html

So, if someone is too cheap to have a raft and an immersion suit for
each passenger, they will die within 120 minutes. And the immersion
suit alone would only extend that 120 minutes "by a few minutes. And I
do mean minutes."

I've always believed that a key to survival in an emergency is to keep
a clear head and not get hysterical. Bob wouldn't stand a chance....


Bob wrote:
First, they are not SURVIVAL SUITS!

Gumby Suits yes, IMMERSION Suits yes........ In no way should you ever
use the word SURVIVAL in your description. I can give you six personal
reasons why they are not survival suits. Each reason had a name and a
family and each are very dead. Each relied on their "survival suit." At
best, an IMMERSION suit does two things.............. 1) immersion
suits delay the onset of death by a few minutes. And I do mean minutes.
If you think you are going to jump off a boat and frolic about otter
like for 6-8 hours in 55 degree water waiting for that eventual rescue
you are dead wrong. With an emphasis on DEAD! 2) immersion suits allow
the USCG to spot your body a bit easier. That is what you can expect
from an immersion suit. Nothing more.

To consider an immersion suit a piece of equipment to rely on for
saving your unlucky body or allow you to survive is simple stupidity.

Advice: Attend a USCG sponsored "Survival at Sea" seminar designed
for commercial fisherman or Charterboat operators. Or go to your local
community college and enroll in one of the STCW-95 classes. Get an
offshore life raft AND an immersion suit for everyone on board. Learn
how to use both. No, not from West Marine. And then practice every few
months donning suit and deploying raft.

Do not start whining about how much it cost. If you do not follow this
advice be sure that you inform every person on your boat when they
abandon your boat they will die in about 120 minutes. Also explaine to
them at the same time you are such a cheep ******* you would rather
save a few bucks than save a few lives.

The most useless thing to do is read the yachting / sailboat / west
marine / Pardy advice.
Back Bobbing

PBM wrote:

I've always believed that a key to survival in an emergency is to keep
a clear head and not get hysterical. Bob wouldn't stand a chance....


Hi PBM:

When I was typing that post I had an all to common feeling of
frustration that usually turns to intolerance. Not sure if
"hysterical" is accurate.

What I am absolutely at wits end is the continuous advice from several
post here that simply spout the same west marine commercials regarding
vessel operation. That is, perpetuating advice they got from an
organization that wants to do one thing: sell equipment. Don't get
too hung up on WM. I use them as an example of ASA, Cruising World, and
the rest. The most recent discussion regarding auto or manual activated
harness PFDs is a great example.

So lets look at the original post.

"........... My application is Great Lakes sailing, for now at least,
so there is
plenty of cool to cold fresh water available and the potential search
area is well serviced and contained. Hypothermia and drowning are the
big issues..................."


So this guy says he is going to sail on a Great Lake in cold weather. I
assume he means 65 degree or less water temp. You tell me what would be
advisable for keeping a "typical" boater/family from drowning-dying
of hypothermia if the party decides to jump over board? How many miles
off the beach? How many minutes/hours before a rescue team shows up?
How long before the last of 2-3-5 people finally gets retrieved? The
local marine cops I have seen are a joke. And the volunteer SAR folks
are about the same. I admit my sample is only PNW and OK-TX-LA. I have
never had a boat go out from under me. Foot prints on the ceiling yes,
total sinking no.

Here is my take. Simply by using the term "survival suit" shows a
total lack of information and understanding regarding cold water
survival. The first person I knew who died in a survival suit was my
best friend in high school, Larry Jinks. We were in boy scouts together
and he was my college roommate. At about age 22 he quit college and
bought a 58' wood dragger then later a steel boat.It was the F/V Miss
Connie.It was one of the Hall brothers boats. He was fished out of
Newport, OR. Another high school friend, Bill H. and some other guy was
working the deck. I remember Larry was very proud of the fact that he
had survival suits for everyone. By his own words, if the boat goes
down all we have to do is clime into this babies and wait for a coasty.
The year was 1978. The USCG picked up two bodies in immersion suits.
The third crewmember was not recovered. Two close friends dead and I
haven't started the stories from the 80s or 90s.

So please do not tell me I am being hysterical when I want people to
realize that there is no such thing as a "survival suit." My big
grief is for the poor folks on that guy's boat who do not know
anything about cold water survival and look to him for guidance. For
example, the trust a ten year old daughter has knowing her daddy will
keep her safe while on the boat.

So if it takes a few guys like yourself to think my words are
hysterical so be it. Maybe someone else will take the time to actually
READ the label and instruction card attached to that immersion suit.
Better yet, they may actually take a cold water survival course
designed for tug, crewboats, and chaterboat crew, or commercial
fisherman. Your NJ safe boater license wont make the grade.

As far as what you said, "...................I've always believed
that a key to survival in an emergency is to keep a clear head and not
get hysterical. Bob wouldn't stand a chance........"

I agree. Being calm is important. Just as important is knowing what to
do, not just look cool and calm. Even more important.......... I am
still alive.
In other words, ............ Go **** yourself.
Bob

On 3 Apr 2006 22:39:43 -0700, in message
.com
"Bob" wrote:

So lets look at the original post.

"........... My application is Great Lakes sailing, for now at least,
so there is
plenty of cool to cold fresh water available and the potential search
area is well serviced and contained. Hypothermia and drowning are the
big issues..................."


So this guy says he is going to sail on a Great Lake in cold weather. I
assume he means 65 degree or less water temp.

I'm the original poster. I don't think I said anything about cold
weather, just concerns about water temperature for extended exposure.
It's usually warm enough for swimming, except for the beginning of the
racing season when we have plenty of immediate rescue assistance
available. Any open lake cruising usually waits for mid season. The de
facto standard locally is life jackets and an inflatable dinghy
(mentioned in the original post). I'm looking at exceeding that
standard and asking about cost effectiveness of alternatives.

My application is a lot less extreme than offshore fishing in the
Pacific North West. I'm sorry that you have lost buddies in those
conditions. Last time I was 100 miles off the Oregon Coast in a gale
we were carrying two life rafts for redundancy, and surfing at speeds
that were either thrilling or terrifying, depending on who you ask.

Ryk

--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

Ryk wrote:

I'm the original poster. I don't think I said anything about cold
weather, just concerns about water temperature for extended exposure.

The weather has little to do with it since you'll be in the water. If I
remember correctly water conducts heat about 400 times more than air.
Water temp is easy to determine. Get the surface temprature in the area
you plan on sailing. If 10 miles off get that temp not the temp at the
beach where it is shallow and much watmer. Several places may have the
temp. Talk to any of the State Fish & Wild life biologist or USCG Aux
who give cold water survival classes.

It's usually warm enough for swimming,

Where? At the beach or where you are sailing? Could be very diffrent.

except for the beginning of the
racing season when we have plenty of immediate rescue assistance
available.

If you want to have an interesting time throw a 200lb dummy over the
side and ask for a rescue. The other boats may be "on location" but may
take an hour or two just to get the dummy on the deck.

Any open lake cruising usually waits for mid season. The de
facto standard locally is life jackets and an inflatable dinghy
(mentioned in the original post).

I am always a bit reluctant to accept the "we've been doin it that way
for years" philosophy. Another big gripe that connects here is those
folks who say they've "been sailing for 45 years." They are assuming
that years means smarts. It don't. Maybe they have simply been
repeating the same thing they learned that first year 44 times.

I'm looking at exceeding that
standard and asking about cost effectiveness of alternatives.

Learning the facts are the best way to do that and then applying the
guidlines to your specific situation. The problem is knowing when you
are getting accurate information. So when I hear people use the word
"survival suit" I know they are working with severly limitted
information.


My application is a lot less extreme than offshore fishing in the
Pacific North West.

I am not so sure about that. People croak all over the place and all in
seemingly "safe" swimming holes. Water temprature is the killer. There
are cards to calculate suvival limits. Minutes - water temp - minutes
to live. Now here is the other problem with thoes cards. Who are the
subjects thoes numbers represent. Add age, lets say 52 yo, physical
condition, medications, smoker? Had two beers at lunch two hours
before going sailing? If so, start cutting your survial time down or
increase the wate temprature.

I'm sorry that you have lost buddies in those
conditions.

Yea, it was a real wake up call. I was suppose to be fishing with them.
But thought sleeping with my girlfriend and drinking beer at college
was more fun than fishing. Larry and Bill were good guys. I think I
made the right decession. On the bright side a lot has been learned in
30 years about cold water safety. You are obvioiusly interested in
learning. Thats good. Now finding the right training...that is another
task.

Last time I was 100 miles off the Oregon Coast in a gale
we were carrying two life rafts for redundancy, and surfing at speeds
that were either thrilling or terrifying, depending on who you ask.

Sounds like a typical summer day on the coast: NW 20- 30 knts 12-15'
swells. Water temp 53 degrees. What were you doing there? I am
assumeing summer and heading south?

I would like to know what cold water course you take. When you do
please post your experince here. My only advice is stay away from the
sailing-recreational crowd. Sadly, a few will consider your words as
rants from another hysterical safety nut cry baby.

Have fun
Bob


Ryk

--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

On 2006-04-04 12:10:45 -0400, "Bob" said:

The weather has little to do with it since you'll be in the water. If I
remember correctly water conducts heat about 400 times more than air.
Water temp is easy to determine. Get the surface temprature in the area
you plan on sailing. If 10 miles off get that temp not the temp at the
beach where it is shallow and much watmer. Several places may have the
temp. Talk to any of the State Fish & Wild life biologist or USCG Aux
who give cold water survival classes.

Actually, it's only about 25x better than air... if it was 400x better
than air, it would heat up a hell of a lot faster than it does.