Keeping in mind that even the safety budget is not bottomless, I'm
trying to figure out the best plan for dire emergencies. Yes, ideally
I would have survival suits, serious life raft, and tons of signalling
electronics. In reality I'm constrained by both cost and space. Up to
now I have been coastal cruising with dinghy and PFDs like just about
everybody else around here.

A life raft seems like a very reassuring second boat, yet survival
suits are easier to deploy, easier to store accessibly, and have far
fewer modes of failure (and don't require expensive repacking and
inspection).

My application is Great Lakes sailing, for now at least, so there is
plenty of cool to cold fresh water available and the potential search
area is well serviced and contained. Hypothermia and drowning are the
big issues.

I'm sure there are plenty of opinions and I would like to hear them.

Ryk



--
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Ryk wrote in
:

cold fresh water

One well-inspected and repacked life raft.
One well-packed ditch bag
One 406 Mhz GPS-enhanced EPIRB, automatic energizing.
http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/beacon.html
http://www.equipped.com/406testing.htm
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/gmdss/epirb.htm

Here's the one on our ditchbag:
http://www.anchorexpress.com/2744-jacket.html
Hmm....street price has gone up with dollar's constant devaluation....

with the GPS, it'll tell 'em within 3 ft of ITS location. The helo homes
in on that and the 121.5 Mhz tiny beacon in close.

What's the family's life worth, anyway? My big PC monitor is about this
price.

Ryk wrote:
Keeping in mind that even the safety budget is not bottomless, I'm
trying to figure out the best plan for dire emergencies. Yes, ideally
I would have survival suits, serious life raft, and tons of signalling
electronics. In reality I'm constrained by both cost and space. Up to
now I have been coastal cruising with dinghy and PFDs like just about
everybody else around here.

A life raft seems like a very reassuring second boat, yet survival
suits are easier to deploy, easier to store accessibly, and have far
fewer modes of failure (and don't require expensive repacking and
inspection).

My application is Great Lakes sailing, for now at least, so there is
plenty of cool to cold fresh water available and the potential search
area is well serviced and contained. Hypothermia and drowning are the
big issues.

I'm sure there are plenty of opinions and I would like to hear them.

Ryk

If hypothermia and drowning are the big issues, why the question? Does a
survival suit prevent these? It may delay the onset for a while, but a
liferaft and cellphone, plus a handheld VHF would seem to me to be so far
ahead of a survival suit that there is only one option worth considering.

Hi Ryk,

Ryk wrote:

A life raft seems like a very reassuring second boat, yet survival
suits are easier to deploy, easier to store accessibly, and have far
fewer modes of failure (and don't require expensive repacking and
inspection).

My application is Great Lakes sailing, for now at least, so there is
plenty of cool to cold fresh water available and the potential search
area is well serviced and contained. Hypothermia and drowning are the
big issues.

Ryk

I'm going out on a limb here, because I don't have direct
experience with either system, however... ;-)

I've read plenty of stories of about sailboats sinking where
they tried to deploy the life raft unsuccessfully.
Obviously the people involved were rescued anyway, or the
story would not have been told. Most of these stories can
be summarized as follows: 1) crew got scared due to water
ingress that they could not identify, or could not stop. 2)
Weather was bad. 3) Crew attempted to deploy life raft, but
it blew away as it was inflating. 4) Crew did something
else and were successfully rescued. In one case, they
actually had the foresight to tether the raft to a rail
before inflating it, and it blew away after breaking their
tether!!

Because of the above, I'm somewhat skeptical of life rafts
if the weather is bad. The problem is not in the rafts
themselves, but in deploying them from a pitching, heaving,
rolling deck in 25+ knot winds.

OTOH, a survival suit and personal GPIRB together should
make rescue a near certainty in most areas, and deployment
is not an issue. Those in combination with a larger RIB
type dinghy with a tent type cover that can be snapped on
and erected in decent weather would be my choice. Obviously
deployment of the RIB in bad weather could have nearly the
same problems as deploying the life raft.

Here's an idea for the experienced offshore sailors to shoot
down (and please feel free to shoot it down!):

Tow your RIB with some emergency supplies inside, and a
custom snap on cover to keep it from filling with water.
Use survival suits and a couple of GPIRBs as your emergency
plan, and make sure that your RIB has hand loops to hold
on to should you wind up in the water. If weather permits,
plan on unsnapping the cover on the RIB, climbing aboard,
and erecting the tent cover to keep exposure to a minimum.

PS - make sure you have a knife to cut the RIB loose from
the boat as the boat sinks ;-)

Now for offshore races, and commercial situations, you won't
have a choice but to follow SOLAS dictates.

Don W.

"Don W" wrote in message
et...
Hi Ryk,

Ryk wrote:

A life raft seems like a very reassuring second boat, yet survival
suits are easier to deploy, easier to store accessibly, and have far
fewer modes of failure (and don't require expensive repacking and
inspection).

My application is Great Lakes sailing, for now at least, so there is
plenty of cool to cold fresh water available and the potential search
area is well serviced and contained. Hypothermia and drowning are the
big issues.

Ryk

I'm going out on a limb here, because I don't have direct experience with
either system, however... ;-)

I've read plenty of stories of about sailboats sinking where they tried to
deploy the life raft unsuccessfully. Obviously the people involved were
rescued anyway, or the story would not have been told. Most of these
stories can be summarized as follows: 1) crew got scared due to water
ingress that they could not identify, or could not stop. 2) Weather was
bad. 3) Crew attempted to deploy life raft, but it blew away as it was
inflating. 4) Crew did something else and were successfully rescued. In
one case, they actually had the foresight to tether the raft to a rail
before inflating it, and it blew away after breaking their tether!!

Because of the above, I'm somewhat skeptical of life rafts if the weather
is bad. The problem is not in the rafts themselves, but in deploying them
from a pitching, heaving, rolling deck in 25+ knot winds.

OTOH, a survival suit and personal GPIRB together should make rescue a
near certainty in most areas, and deployment is not an issue. Those in
combination with a larger RIB type dinghy with a tent type cover that can
be snapped on and erected in decent weather would be my choice. Obviously
deployment of the RIB in bad weather could have nearly the same problems
as deploying the life raft.

Here's an idea for the experienced offshore sailors to shoot down (and
please feel free to shoot it down!):

Tow your RIB with some emergency supplies inside, and a custom snap on
cover to keep it from filling with water. Use survival suits and a couple
of GPIRBs as your emergency plan, and make sure that your RIB has hand
loops to hold on to should you wind up in the water. If weather permits,
plan on unsnapping the cover on the RIB, climbing aboard, and erecting the
tent cover to keep exposure to a minimum.

PS - make sure you have a knife to cut the RIB loose from the boat as the
boat sinks ;-)

Now for offshore races, and commercial situations, you won't have a choice
but to follow SOLAS dictates.

Don W.


One of the problems with the suits is the amount of time it takes to put
them on properly and for the crew to be knowledgeable and properly trained
on donning them.

Yet even when the suits are used properly there is no guarantee of survival
in frigid water, especially is there is significant delay in the rescue due
to bad weather or gale force winds.

Watch the TV series "Deadliest Catch" on the Discovery Channel. The last
episode had a boat capsizing with a captain and crew of 5. Although 4 were
able to get into their survival suits only 1 survived.

http://tinyurl.com/ls8tu

Your best bet is a survival suit and a raft. Survival really depends on
the situation, in good weather, getting into a raft is not a problem.
But in bad weather, with heavy winds, rafts often get blown away before
you have a chance to board them. At least with a survival suit, if the
raft blows away, you still have a chance if you have to enter the
water. If you get into the raft, with a survival suit, even if the raft
keeps filling with water and you have to bail the water, you're got a
good chance of survival. But without the suit, and water coming into
the raft, you've got a problem. With a survival suit, in the kinds of
water you are talking about, you shouldn't have a problem, given a
reasonable time to rescus.

I've heard reccomendations that you put plastic bags over your feet
when getting into a survival suit, just like you used to do with snow
boots, they slide right on. Put a set of bags into each survival suit
bag.

I've got a raft, but I'm looking seriously at suits. I think their the
better line of defense. I'm not relying on the raft inflating properly,
right side up, not getting hung up in the riggers, and not blowing
away. I've got the EPIRB and a hand held VHF in a waterproof plastic
type bag the manufacturer makes. Take the flare gun with you as well,
and be careful with with hand held flares, you can end up damaging the
raft in the process.

Roger Long wrote:

I've been to four lift raft inflation parties to give crews the
experience of inflating and climbing in before they were sent for
repacking.

I've only seen a liferaft inflate once.

Now that's scary!!

Don W.

Don W wrote:

I've read plenty of stories of about sailboats sinking where they tried
to deploy the life raft unsuccessfully. Obviously the people involved
were rescued anyway, or the story would not have been told. Most of
these stories can be summarized as follows: 1) crew got scared due to
water ingress that they could not identify, or could not stop. 2)
Weather was bad. 3) Crew attempted to deploy life raft, but it blew
away as it was inflating. 4) Crew did something else and were
successfully rescued. In one case, they actually had the foresight to
tether the raft to a rail before inflating it, and it blew away after
breaking their tether!!


OTOH, a survival suit and personal GPIRB together should make rescue a
near certainty in most areas, and deployment is not an issue. Those in
combination with a larger RIB type dinghy with a tent type cover that
can be snapped on and erected in decent weather would be my choice.
Obviously deployment of the RIB in bad weather could have nearly the
same problems as deploying the life raft.


Don W.

Further to your notes, most boats abandoned in favour of liferafts are
subsequently found floating and fine. It would seem to me that putting
on a survival suit and sitting around waiting for the boat to sink is a
better idea than climbing into a liferaft and watching the boat float away.

Gary

"Gary" wrote

Further to your notes, most boats abandoned in favour of liferafts
are subsequently found floating and fine.

They say, "If you are not stepping UP into your liferaft from the deck
of your sinking vessel, you are getting off too soon."

--

Roger Long

Roger Long wrote:
I've been to four lift raft inflation parties to give crews the
experience of inflating and climbing in before they were sent for
repacking.

I've only seen a liferaft inflate once.

It's the drink Roger.