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#1
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Was Suits V. Raft: They are not SURVIVAL Suits!
First, they are not SURVIVAL SUITS!
Gumby Suits yes, IMMERSION Suits yes........ In no way should you ever use the word SURVIVAL in your description. I can give you six personal reasons why they are not survival suits. Each reason had a name and a family and each are very dead. Each relied on their "survival suit." At best, an IMMERSION suit does two things.............. 1) immersion suits delay the onset of death by a few minutes. And I do mean minutes. If you think you are going to jump off a boat and frolic about otter like for 6-8 hours in 55 degree water waiting for that eventual rescue you are dead wrong. With an emphasis on DEAD! 2) immersion suits allow the USCG to spot your body a bit easier. That is what you can expect from an immersion suit. Nothing more. To consider an immersion suit a piece of equipment to rely on for saving your unlucky body or allow you to survive is simple stupidity. Advice: Attend a USCG sponsored "Survival at Sea" seminar designed for commercial fisherman or Charterboat operators. Or go to your local community college and enroll in one of the STCW-95 classes. Get an offshore life raft AND an immersion suit for everyone on board. Learn how to use both. No, not from West Marine. And then practice every few months donning suit and deploying raft. Do not start whining about how much it cost. If you do not follow this advice be sure that you inform every person on your boat when they abandon your boat they will die in about 120 minutes. Also explaine to them at the same time you are such a cheep ******* you would rather save a few bucks than save a few lives. The most useless thing to do is read the yachting / sailboat / west marine / Pardy advice. Back Bobbing |
#2
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Was Suits V. Raft: They are not SURVIVAL Suits!
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#3
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Was Suits V. Raft: They are not SURVIVAL Suits!
So, if someone is too cheap to have a raft and an immersion suit for
each passenger, they will die within 120 minutes. And the immersion suit alone would only extend that 120 minutes "by a few minutes. And I do mean minutes." I've always believed that a key to survival in an emergency is to keep a clear head and not get hysterical. Bob wouldn't stand a chance.... Bob wrote: First, they are not SURVIVAL SUITS! Gumby Suits yes, IMMERSION Suits yes........ In no way should you ever use the word SURVIVAL in your description. I can give you six personal reasons why they are not survival suits. Each reason had a name and a family and each are very dead. Each relied on their "survival suit." At best, an IMMERSION suit does two things.............. 1) immersion suits delay the onset of death by a few minutes. And I do mean minutes. If you think you are going to jump off a boat and frolic about otter like for 6-8 hours in 55 degree water waiting for that eventual rescue you are dead wrong. With an emphasis on DEAD! 2) immersion suits allow the USCG to spot your body a bit easier. That is what you can expect from an immersion suit. Nothing more. To consider an immersion suit a piece of equipment to rely on for saving your unlucky body or allow you to survive is simple stupidity. Advice: Attend a USCG sponsored "Survival at Sea" seminar designed for commercial fisherman or Charterboat operators. Or go to your local community college and enroll in one of the STCW-95 classes. Get an offshore life raft AND an immersion suit for everyone on board. Learn how to use both. No, not from West Marine. And then practice every few months donning suit and deploying raft. Do not start whining about how much it cost. If you do not follow this advice be sure that you inform every person on your boat when they abandon your boat they will die in about 120 minutes. Also explaine to them at the same time you are such a cheep ******* you would rather save a few bucks than save a few lives. The most useless thing to do is read the yachting / sailboat / west marine / Pardy advice. Back Bobbing |
#4
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Was Suits V. Raft: They are not SURVIVAL Suits!
PBM wrote: I've always believed that a key to survival in an emergency is to keep a clear head and not get hysterical. Bob wouldn't stand a chance.... Hi PBM: When I was typing that post I had an all to common feeling of frustration that usually turns to intolerance. Not sure if "hysterical" is accurate. What I am absolutely at wits end is the continuous advice from several post here that simply spout the same west marine commercials regarding vessel operation. That is, perpetuating advice they got from an organization that wants to do one thing: sell equipment. Don't get too hung up on WM. I use them as an example of ASA, Cruising World, and the rest. The most recent discussion regarding auto or manual activated harness PFDs is a great example. So lets look at the original post. "........... My application is Great Lakes sailing, for now at least, so there is plenty of cool to cold fresh water available and the potential search area is well serviced and contained. Hypothermia and drowning are the big issues..................." So this guy says he is going to sail on a Great Lake in cold weather. I assume he means 65 degree or less water temp. You tell me what would be advisable for keeping a "typical" boater/family from drowning-dying of hypothermia if the party decides to jump over board? How many miles off the beach? How many minutes/hours before a rescue team shows up? How long before the last of 2-3-5 people finally gets retrieved? The local marine cops I have seen are a joke. And the volunteer SAR folks are about the same. I admit my sample is only PNW and OK-TX-LA. I have never had a boat go out from under me. Foot prints on the ceiling yes, total sinking no. Here is my take. Simply by using the term "survival suit" shows a total lack of information and understanding regarding cold water survival. The first person I knew who died in a survival suit was my best friend in high school, Larry Jinks. We were in boy scouts together and he was my college roommate. At about age 22 he quit college and bought a 58' wood dragger then later a steel boat.It was the F/V Miss Connie.It was one of the Hall brothers boats. He was fished out of Newport, OR. Another high school friend, Bill H. and some other guy was working the deck. I remember Larry was very proud of the fact that he had survival suits for everyone. By his own words, if the boat goes down all we have to do is clime into this babies and wait for a coasty. The year was 1978. The USCG picked up two bodies in immersion suits. The third crewmember was not recovered. Two close friends dead and I haven't started the stories from the 80s or 90s. So please do not tell me I am being hysterical when I want people to realize that there is no such thing as a "survival suit." My big grief is for the poor folks on that guy's boat who do not know anything about cold water survival and look to him for guidance. For example, the trust a ten year old daughter has knowing her daddy will keep her safe while on the boat. So if it takes a few guys like yourself to think my words are hysterical so be it. Maybe someone else will take the time to actually READ the label and instruction card attached to that immersion suit. Better yet, they may actually take a cold water survival course designed for tug, crewboats, and chaterboat crew, or commercial fisherman. Your NJ safe boater license wont make the grade. As far as what you said, "...................I've always believed that a key to survival in an emergency is to keep a clear head and not get hysterical. Bob wouldn't stand a chance........" I agree. Being calm is important. Just as important is knowing what to do, not just look cool and calm. Even more important.......... I am still alive. In other words, ............ Go **** yourself. Bob |
#5
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Was Suits V. Raft: They are not SURVIVAL Suits!
On 3 Apr 2006 22:39:43 -0700, in message
.com "Bob" wrote: So lets look at the original post. "........... My application is Great Lakes sailing, for now at least, so there is plenty of cool to cold fresh water available and the potential search area is well serviced and contained. Hypothermia and drowning are the big issues..................." So this guy says he is going to sail on a Great Lake in cold weather. I assume he means 65 degree or less water temp. I'm the original poster. I don't think I said anything about cold weather, just concerns about water temperature for extended exposure. It's usually warm enough for swimming, except for the beginning of the racing season when we have plenty of immediate rescue assistance available. Any open lake cruising usually waits for mid season. The de facto standard locally is life jackets and an inflatable dinghy (mentioned in the original post). I'm looking at exceeding that standard and asking about cost effectiveness of alternatives. My application is a lot less extreme than offshore fishing in the Pacific North West. I'm sorry that you have lost buddies in those conditions. Last time I was 100 miles off the Oregon Coast in a gale we were carrying two life rafts for redundancy, and surfing at speeds that were either thrilling or terrifying, depending on who you ask. Ryk -- NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth |
#6
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Was Suits V. Raft: They are not SURVIVAL Suits!
Ryk wrote: I'm the original poster. I don't think I said anything about cold weather, just concerns about water temperature for extended exposure. The weather has little to do with it since you'll be in the water. If I remember correctly water conducts heat about 400 times more than air. Water temp is easy to determine. Get the surface temprature in the area you plan on sailing. If 10 miles off get that temp not the temp at the beach where it is shallow and much watmer. Several places may have the temp. Talk to any of the State Fish & Wild life biologist or USCG Aux who give cold water survival classes. It's usually warm enough for swimming, Where? At the beach or where you are sailing? Could be very diffrent. except for the beginning of the racing season when we have plenty of immediate rescue assistance available. If you want to have an interesting time throw a 200lb dummy over the side and ask for a rescue. The other boats may be "on location" but may take an hour or two just to get the dummy on the deck. Any open lake cruising usually waits for mid season. The de facto standard locally is life jackets and an inflatable dinghy (mentioned in the original post). I am always a bit reluctant to accept the "we've been doin it that way for years" philosophy. Another big gripe that connects here is those folks who say they've "been sailing for 45 years." They are assuming that years means smarts. It don't. Maybe they have simply been repeating the same thing they learned that first year 44 times. I'm looking at exceeding that standard and asking about cost effectiveness of alternatives. Learning the facts are the best way to do that and then applying the guidlines to your specific situation. The problem is knowing when you are getting accurate information. So when I hear people use the word "survival suit" I know they are working with severly limitted information. My application is a lot less extreme than offshore fishing in the Pacific North West. I am not so sure about that. People croak all over the place and all in seemingly "safe" swimming holes. Water temprature is the killer. There are cards to calculate suvival limits. Minutes - water temp - minutes to live. Now here is the other problem with thoes cards. Who are the subjects thoes numbers represent. Add age, lets say 52 yo, physical condition, medications, smoker? Had two beers at lunch two hours before going sailing? If so, start cutting your survial time down or increase the wate temprature. I'm sorry that you have lost buddies in those conditions. Yea, it was a real wake up call. I was suppose to be fishing with them. But thought sleeping with my girlfriend and drinking beer at college was more fun than fishing. Larry and Bill were good guys. I think I made the right decession. On the bright side a lot has been learned in 30 years about cold water safety. You are obvioiusly interested in learning. Thats good. Now finding the right training...that is another task. Last time I was 100 miles off the Oregon Coast in a gale we were carrying two life rafts for redundancy, and surfing at speeds that were either thrilling or terrifying, depending on who you ask. Sounds like a typical summer day on the coast: NW 20- 30 knts 12-15' swells. Water temp 53 degrees. What were you doing there? I am assumeing summer and heading south? I would like to know what cold water course you take. When you do please post your experince here. My only advice is stay away from the sailing-recreational crowd. Sadly, a few will consider your words as rants from another hysterical safety nut cry baby. Have fun Bob Ryk -- NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth |
#7
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Was Suits V. Raft: They are not SURVIVAL Suits!
On 2006-04-04 12:10:45 -0400, "Bob" said:
The weather has little to do with it since you'll be in the water. If I remember correctly water conducts heat about 400 times more than air. Water temp is easy to determine. Get the surface temprature in the area you plan on sailing. If 10 miles off get that temp not the temp at the beach where it is shallow and much watmer. Several places may have the temp. Talk to any of the State Fish & Wild life biologist or USCG Aux who give cold water survival classes. Actually, it's only about 25x better than air... if it was 400x better than air, it would heat up a hell of a lot faster than it does. |
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