If you are familiar with the Universal Atomic 4 gas engine, you know that it
originally used raw water as the cooling system.

Moyer Marine, and Indiga Electronics both sell a Heat Exchanger which can be
mounted near the engine, therefore eliminating the raw water as the cooling
system and using antifreeze as the coolant.

The Heat Exchanger units cost around $500 dollars.

I got to wondering ??? Can I or is there ,,, a place where I can buy a
Heat Exchanger that will work with the Atomic 4 but isn't so expensive?

Do motor boats use this Heat Exchange method?

It just seems like $500 dollars is expensive..

Any thoughts?

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 23:53:36 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"
wrote:

Do motor boats use this Heat Exchange method?

It just seems like $500 dollars is expensive..

Any thoughts?

================

Yes, I do. It's only half a boat buck.

If that seems expensive, then you don't appreciate the realities of
trying to manufacture and market specialized, low volume equipment. I
doubt that anyone is getting rich selling this stuff. With all due
respect, if $500 seems expensive to you, then you should reconsider
getting a mid size cruising sail boat. You want to be in a position
where you own the boat and not the other way around. Seriously,
$500 is the tip of the iceberg.

"Thomas Wentworth" wrote
It just seems like $500 dollars is expensive..

Any thoughts?


I'm always good for a thought. $500 isn't expensive. That's just
about one BBU for a reasonably complex piece of gear that isn't
produced in quantity.

What's a BBU?

Oh, I though everyone knew. That's a "Basic Boat Unit". For rough
estimating of any boat project, just count up everything you need and
figure each item costs $500. Total cost should then average out close
to the same price.

You can pump the water through the heat exchanger with the raw water
pump but then you'll still need:

A second pump to pump cooling water to the exhaust.
Bracket fabricated to hold second pump.
Belt and pulleys adapted.
Heater tank
Piping, hose, and clamps.
Header tank.
Thermostat

Let's see, that's seven more BBU's.

I'd like to get my raw water cooled boat set up so I can use it
conveniently in freezing weather. Being from the commercial world,
I'm getting a proposal on a keel cooler. This is heresy for a sail
boat but the fact of the matter is that the drag is pretty minimal.
The boundary layer is so thick in the hind quarters that I'll never
notice the effect of dragging this small radiator like device through
the water.

With a heat exchanger, you still have seawater in the boat that can
freeze and bust things, (like the heat exchanger) so you still have to
worry about draining or filling the system raw water side with
antifreeze. With the keel cooler, instead of bringing the salt
cooling water in, you just pump the antifreeze and fresh water mix
outside and let the ocean cool it. You still have to worry about
draining the muffler but, if you should forget and crack a Vernalift,
it's not as big a hit to the pocketbook as an engine block or heat
exchanger.

The ideal thing is to convert to dry exhaust but then you need a
muffler and it's a lot of hot insulated pipe to arrange for in most
sailboats. Water backing up into the hot exhaust pipe is also likely
to crack it. That's why most commercial boats that work all year have
stacks and keel coolers. No salt water in the boat and no salt water
pumps.

--

Roger Long

Roger ,, couldn't you set up a fan unit to take the heat out of the engine
coolant in the winter? Like a radiator in a car?

Then, you could have a warm boat.

This seems extreme though. Are you this hard core?

=========
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Thomas Wentworth" wrote
It just seems like $500 dollars is expensive..

Any thoughts?


I'm always good for a thought. $500 isn't expensive. That's just about
one BBU for a reasonably complex piece of gear that isn't produced in
quantity.

What's a BBU?

Oh, I though everyone knew. That's a "Basic Boat Unit". For rough
estimating of any boat project, just count up everything you need and
figure each item costs $500. Total cost should then average out close to
the same price.

You can pump the water through the heat exchanger with the raw water pump
but then you'll still need:

A second pump to pump cooling water to the exhaust.
Bracket fabricated to hold second pump.
Belt and pulleys adapted.
Heater tank
Piping, hose, and clamps.
Header tank.
Thermostat

Let's see, that's seven more BBU's.

I'd like to get my raw water cooled boat set up so I can use it
conveniently in freezing weather. Being from the commercial world, I'm
getting a proposal on a keel cooler. This is heresy for a sail boat but
the fact of the matter is that the drag is pretty minimal. The boundary
layer is so thick in the hind quarters that I'll never notice the effect
of dragging this small radiator like device through the water.

With a heat exchanger, you still have seawater in the boat that can freeze
and bust things, (like the heat exchanger) so you still have to worry
about draining or filling the system raw water side with antifreeze. With
the keel cooler, instead of bringing the salt cooling water in, you just
pump the antifreeze and fresh water mix outside and let the ocean cool it.
You still have to worry about draining the muffler but, if you should
forget and crack a Vernalift, it's not as big a hit to the pocketbook as
an engine block or heat exchanger.

The ideal thing is to convert to dry exhaust but then you need a muffler
and it's a lot of hot insulated pipe to arrange for in most sailboats.
Water backing up into the hot exhaust pipe is also likely to crack it.
That's why most commercial boats that work all year have stacks and keel
coolers. No salt water in the boat and no salt water pumps.

--

Roger Long

Not with 20 HP. That little engine takes all day to heat up the two
gallon galley hot water tank which the cooling water runs through
before going into the exhaust. One reason I want a keel cooler is
that I can use the thermostat to boost the operating temperature of
the engine. The engine will run better and I'll have more hot water.

What I do is plug in the shore power and heat up the hot water just
before leaving. AC brings it up to temp in about 5 minutes. The
engine then keeps it there if I'm doing some motoring.

And, yeah, I'm pretty hard core

--

Roger Long



"Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message
newsmKRf.1470$%b.892@trndny04...
Roger ,, couldn't you set up a fan unit to take the heat out of the
engine coolant in the winter? Like a radiator in a car?

Then, you could have a warm boat.

This seems extreme though. Are you this hard core?

=========
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Thomas Wentworth" wrote
It just seems like $500 dollars is expensive..

Any thoughts?


I'm always good for a thought. $500 isn't expensive. That's just
about one BBU for a reasonably complex piece of gear that isn't
produced in quantity.

What's a BBU?

Oh, I though everyone knew. That's a "Basic Boat Unit". For rough
estimating of any boat project, just count up everything you need
and figure each item costs $500. Total cost should then average
out close to the same price.

You can pump the water through the heat exchanger with the raw
water pump but then you'll still need:

A second pump to pump cooling water to the exhaust.
Bracket fabricated to hold second pump.
Belt and pulleys adapted.
Heater tank
Piping, hose, and clamps.
Header tank.
Thermostat

Let's see, that's seven more BBU's.

I'd like to get my raw water cooled boat set up so I can use it
conveniently in freezing weather. Being from the commercial world,
I'm getting a proposal on a keel cooler. This is heresy for a sail
boat but the fact of the matter is that the drag is pretty minimal.
The boundary layer is so thick in the hind quarters that I'll never
notice the effect of dragging this small radiator like device
through the water.

With a heat exchanger, you still have seawater in the boat that can
freeze and bust things, (like the heat exchanger) so you still have
to worry about draining or filling the system raw water side with
antifreeze. With the keel cooler, instead of bringing the salt
cooling water in, you just pump the antifreeze and fresh water mix
outside and let the ocean cool it. You still have to worry about
draining the muffler but, if you should forget and crack a
Vernalift, it's not as big a hit to the pocketbook as an engine
block or heat exchanger.

The ideal thing is to convert to dry exhaust but then you need a
muffler and it's a lot of hot insulated pipe to arrange for in most
sailboats. Water backing up into the hot exhaust pipe is also
likely to crack it. That's why most commercial boats that work all
year have stacks and keel coolers. No salt water in the boat and
no salt water pumps.

--

Roger Long

Roger Long wrote:
Not with 20 HP. That little engine takes all day to heat up the two
gallon galley hot water tank which the cooling water runs through
before going into the exhaust.

2 gallon water heater? What unit is that? I've pulled my rusty old
Raritan 6 gal out, and would like a much smaller unit.

Jack

2 gallons was a wild guess but I looked it up and it's either a 4 or 6
Atlantic Marine Products Corp. I would guess 4 gallons because it
isn't very big. I don't know it they still make them. Phone number
in Richmond VA was 804-264-1169 in 1997.

--

Roger Long



wrote in message
ups.com...

Roger Long wrote:
Not with 20 HP. That little engine takes all day to heat up the
two
gallon galley hot water tank which the cooling water runs through
before going into the exhaust.

2 gallon water heater? What unit is that? I've pulled my rusty old
Raritan 6 gal out, and would like a much smaller unit.

Jack

Thanks, Roger, I'll check them out.

Jack

"Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message
newsmKRf.1470$%b.892@trndny04...
Roger ,, couldn't you set up a fan unit to take the heat out of the engine
coolant in the winter? Like a radiator in a car?

Then, you could have a warm boat.

This seems extreme though. Are you this hard core?

I have a friend with this exact setup in a Viking 33 with a fresh water
cooled Atomic 4. No water heater though. He gets heat quickly and it is
effective for keeping the boat warm while the engine is running.

--
Ken Heaton & Anne Tobin
Cape Breton Island, Canada
kenheaton at eastlink dot ca

On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 13:32:45 GMT, "Ken Heaton"
wrote:


"Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message
newsmKRf.1470$%b.892@trndny04...
Roger ,, couldn't you set up a fan unit to take the heat out of the engine
coolant in the winter? Like a radiator in a car?

Then, you could have a warm boat.

This seems extreme though. Are you this hard core?

I have a friend with this exact setup in a Viking 33 with a fresh water
cooled Atomic 4. No water heater though. He gets heat quickly and it is
effective for keeping the boat warm while the engine is running.

As I have a Viking 33 with an Atomic 4, I'd be interested in how this
is set up in a way that doesn't counteract the blower venting the
engine compartment.

I don't have chronic crankcase fumes as it's a freshly rebuilt engine,
but if I'm on a downwind motorsail, I do smell it a bit in the cabin.

In other words, how do you leach off the heat without the fumes?

R.