Gary wrote in
news:7L3Pf.112368$B94.94115@pd7tw3no:

otnmbrd wrote:
Gary wrote in
news:uuQOf.109032$B94.27750@pd7tw3no:


And how did you check the error on that deck watch? Radio? What was
the error and how much does it change daily? Can't just do the time
check anymore. Damn lightening.

Most watches/clocks are fairly consistent in their rate of error.
Prior to your loss of electronics you would have/should have been
maintaining a log of the watch/clock you would use for this type
emergency so that you would know not only it's error but daily rate.
You apply this error and daily rate to your calculations.

otn
Just my point, but who actually is doing this? Thank goodness for the
GPS.


This series of arguments/discussions, comes up on a fairly regular
basis.
All it takes are statements such as "there is no viable alternative to
GPS" for offshore navigation, or, "celestial is too inaccurate" to bring
those of us with extensive backgrounds in "oldtime navigation" out of
the woodwork.
Who is doing this? In all honesty, anyone who is frequently involved
with offshore navigation and is aware of the possibilities. G It takes
no time and relieves some of the watchstanding boredom and might save
your butt, someday.
I am not talking about 99% of the recreational boaters in this group who
rarely get more than one day from landfall, but rather those who are apt
to take extended cruises wherein you need to plan and be ready for the
worst.
All too often, todays boaters/cruisers tend to feel there is no need to
know anything other than how to turn on their GPS. We hear about them
all the time.....overdue, missing, presumed dead.


otn

Gary wrote in
news:EN3Pf.111703$H%4.77487@pd7tw2no:


How does putting a GPS fix on the chart help you forget your boat's
reaction to weather, currents (it tells you them), DRing etc? If
anything it proves your estimated position.



Sure it tells you what, but it doesn't tell you why. Hey, good short term
plan, the GPS says steer 270..... course, this could mean you'll fight the
currents/winds , rather than use them: drive over that rock.....
GPS is a tool and all too many consider it the ultimate tool. It's not and
all too many get into the habit of forgetting to question the "why" of what
it says.
BTW, the GPS doesn't tell you your boat's reaction to weather, currents.
It's telling you your reaction to the cumulative conditions you are in.
YOU have to figure out your boats reactions to weather, currents.


otn

otnmbrd wrote:


Just my point, but who actually is doing this? Thank goodness for the
GPS.



This series of arguments/discussions, comes up on a fairly regular
basis.
All it takes are statements such as "there is no viable alternative to
GPS" for offshore navigation, or, "celestial is too inaccurate" to bring
those of us with extensive backgrounds in "oldtime navigation" out of
the woodwork.
Who is doing this? In all honesty, anyone who is frequently involved
with offshore navigation and is aware of the possibilities. G It takes
no time and relieves some of the watchstanding boredom and might save
your butt, someday.
I do believe that some may do it for relief of the boredom. That sounds
right. I am sure that not many are winding chronometers and recording
errors of deck watches anymore. We certainly don't on my ship and most
Captains I know, military and civil don't.

What do you drive where this is done?

Next you'll tell me that airline pilots are taking sights out the
windows of the cockpit "just in case".

I am not talking about 99% of the recreational boaters in this group who
rarely get more than one day from landfall, but rather those who are apt
to take extended cruises wherein you need to plan and be ready for the
worst.
All too often, todays boaters/cruisers tend to feel there is no need to
know anything other than how to turn on their GPS. We hear about them
all the time.....overdue, missing, presumed dead.


otn

You say things much better then I. I agree with this 100%.

The work is to much for many to mix in with having fun. Some never will
need it.

There are those of us who learned it before there was another way and
so it is in our habits. I really love staying in touch with nature. I
love looking up and knowing what star is over what island at what time
of night. To me, it is a huge part of sailing and not just a backup.

I tend to take a fix and then check it on the gps to see how close I
got. I love calculating the time between wave crests, height and change
in direction to see where the weather system is heading. To me, it is
what sailing is about, but then some guys only like powerboats. I love
sailing tall ships and race sloops.

Gary, Pilots go from point a to b in a few hours. When sailing, I often
leave point a and take 3 or 4 days to point b. Sometimes its more like
a 7-9 days. A lot can happen in that time. Pilots know what they are
flying into. Sailors only know what they left behind.

For most people, sailing is a lot more then drinking beer and going
from cruiser port to cruiser port. Those that do that are more often
then not, motor boaters with a sail for looks and a boat instead of a
motor home. The guys that hang out and talk story and sail a Wednesday
night race are social people that socialize around boats. I doubt any
of them would ever want to learn anything except maybe how to make a
maple leaf flag.

When I drive a boat somewhere for delivery, its not sailing, its
delivery and I am usually in site of land, even between it in the ICW.
The only jobs I have that take me offshore is driving cargo or offshore
towing and both of those are motor driven and fast from a to b.

By the way, you're talking like you're are a captain with "We
certainly don't on my ship and most Captains I know, military and civil
don't." If you were a captain then you would know that celestial is a
required ticket to get a higher license and if you were navy you would
know that it is required to drive one of their rigs. I don't know who
you are or what you do but I do know what you don't do.

Gary wrote in
news:Z26Pf.112412$H%4.97127@pd7tw2no:

otnmbrd wrote:
Gary wrote in


How does putting a GPS fix on the chart help you forget your boat's
reaction to weather, currents (it tells you them), DRing etc? If
anything it proves your estimated position.


Sure it tells you what, but it doesn't tell you why. Hey, good short
term plan, the GPS says steer 270..... course, this could mean you'll
fight the currents/winds , rather than use them: drive over that
rock.....

The GPS doesn't say steer anything. It just tells you where you are,
exactly, most of the time.

Generally the units I use tell you the course to steer to the next
waypoint.

GPS is a tool and all too many consider it the ultimate tool. It's
not and all too many get into the habit of forgetting to question the
"why" of what it says.
It is currently the ultimate tool but not the only tool and not
infallible. But it is the best.....generally, most of the time,
right?

For offshore navigation, I'd say yes. For inshore, I'd say no, but it
ranks close.


What, in your opinion is the ultimate navigation tool?

Me


BTW, the GPS doesn't tell you your boat's reaction to weather,
currents. It's telling you your reaction to the cumulative conditions
you are in. YOU have to figure out your boats reactions to weather,
currents.


otn

It is the total cumulative reaction that counts. It's the same
information you get off two fixes whether taken by stars, radar,
visually, or GPS. The information is total cumulation of wind and
current affecting the ship. That is what you want. The GPS just does
it quicker and more accurately and more often.

No, it only tells you the cumulative. Once again, YOU need to figure out
the "why" to know how the "cumulative" came about.
For instance, you are on a displacement type boat with 20k of wind on
the port beam. Your GPS tells you, you are making your course good (no
set or drift). What does that tell you?


otn

"Tell me what your sextant tells you about the clouds? "
I'm a bit tired of you but -
If you know the dew point and temperature, then you know how high the
bottoms of the clouds are and then with a sextant you know how far away
a storm is. If you know how far away it is, you can tell how high it
is. If you know how high it is you can see how much more it grows and
in what direction it is moving.

I have 2 GPS's on board but I am smart enough to know that electrical
things break and GPS is not guaranteed to be available and there are
things that can go wrong and they don't do everything and its fun to
do old school sailing and and and and and.............. and gps is not
good to 3-5 meters anywhere outside the states and charts are not
accurate enough to use GPS with outside of populated areas and and and
and and............ if you read a damned thing you would already have
read that but then you are what you are and not what you are not!

otnmbrd wrote:
[snip]
No, it only tells you the cumulative. Once again, YOU need to figure out
the "why" to know how the "cumulative" came about.
For instance, you are on a displacement type boat with 20k of wind on
the port beam. Your GPS tells you, you are making your course good (no
set or drift). What does that tell you?

hi otn,

what you are saying is the same as what the fat navigation book i've
been studying is saying, that the navigator navigates and the GPS just
gives a fix, which is one of the many interesting things a navigator
needs to know to do his/her job. it's brilliant at giving fixes,
fortunately. like you are saying, navigation is more than getting from
A to B, which is what GPS is great at ... but about getting from A to B
safely, in good time, with good weather, with a smooth ride, following
advantageous winds and currents, arriving at tricky harbor entrances in
daylight, etc, etc, things that GPS doesn't know anything about. even
the navigator doesn't know them all, s/he can only use his/her best
judgement and experience when combining the information gained by the
navigational aids at hand such as GPS fixes, wind direction
measurements, wind speed, calculations of currents, route books showing
statistical "best times" for advantageous conditions, and on and on.
it's all important in creating "situational awareness", and the more
accurate information upon which to make a judgement, the better.

which is the most important navigational tool in the middle of the
ocean ? like otn said, himself (i'm assuming you are male otn,
apologies if i'm wrong!). and other really important tools are .. if
using paper charts (doesn't everyone do their real work on paper charts
?) ... good updated charts, pencils and scrap paper, a straight edge,
GPS receivers, wind vane, a calculator, good reference information,
depth finder, radios, etc, etc .. and the most important information
are GPS fixes, current heading, heading made true, magnetic direction
(which is only on occasion coincidentally the same as your GPS
direction), weather reports, etc, etc. but in the end, it is the
totality of all of this information combined in the navigator's own
squishy brain that is the most important thing, and the experience and
knowledge of the navigator to make good judgements that keeps a boat
off of a reef.

in that context, i still think RDF would be interesting to use. if
you're just sitting there in the ocean moving along at a nice pace
without a speck of land in sight, i, personally, would gain an added
measure of comfort in my own decisions by knowing that WABC's
transmitter at location lat/long is located 10 degrees off of
starboard. yes, i want a GPS fix too (goes without saying), and i want
to know a lot more than that, but i'd like to know that RDF information
too if i had the choice between having it and not having it. and as
far as that goes, i'd be happy with celestial fixes along the way too,
even relatively inaccurate ones that put me in the same neighborhood.
and i'd be happy seeing stationary clouds on the horizon forming over
and island, sea birds, knowing what location nearby vessels think they
are at, etc, too, i want as much information as i can get. all of
these perceptions form a picture in the navigator's mind that you hope
is the same as what reality is.

and i'm not saying that anyone here doesn't think the same kind of
thing, i would assume that everyone posting on this thread has some
similar kind of idea in mind even if there is debate over whether RDF
or celestial sights are worth including for the amount of trouble
and/or equipment weight, etc, that's involved. but i personally don't
see RDF, celestial sights, or sea birds as "un-necessary" or "something
to do when bored", i see them as interesting information that i would
rather have than not. i don't see how excluding any of that
information is smart as a goal unto itself .. and for those involved in
a ****ing contest in this thread, i'm not trying to infer that you
think it's a bright idea either. so don't **** on me! lol.

"Gary" wrote in message
news:UY5Pf.112065$sa3.81091@pd7tw1no...

I do believe that some may do it for relief of the boredom. That sounds
right. I am sure that not many are winding chronometers and recording
errors of deck watches anymore. We certainly don't on my ship and most
Captains I know, military and civil don't.

Actually, I'm surprised at how many ships I see out there with wind up
chronometers and "Chron logs"


What do you drive where this is done?

Next you'll tell me that airline pilots are taking sights out the windows
of the cockpit "just in case".

G Wrong type of pilot

otn

Jeff wrote:
Gary wrote:

otnmbrd wrote:

That same bolt of lightening will take out your calculator so you
then have to work stars long hand. It'll also kill your digital
watch and radio so you won't have the correct time. It'll probably
short out your boat so you won't be able to work the stars out until
light the next morning. The lightening excuse to learn astro is
BS. Learn it because you want to or take a couple extra handheld
GPS. Practice dead reckoning. Know where you are all the time.

Gaz




Let's see...... calculator gone, long hand star calc's....add a
minute or two to the solution.
digital watch killed..... in that case I'm probably dead too so what
do I care.... always have a mechanical clock that you know the
error...no big deal, was done for years.
lights out?....lite a candle or wait till daylight.... what the hell,
it's offshore navigation, what's the rush....


And how did you check the error on that deck watch? Radio? What was
the error and how much does it change daily? Can't just do the time
check anymore. Damn lightening.


With all due respect Gary, I think you need a refresher course on
celestial. I wear a "windup" watch, and have two windup ship's
clocks. All of them are accurate to a minute a month, and have a pretty
consistent error rate. I generally set them once a week, so the error is
well under a minute. So, would you care to tell us what the expected
error would be for both Latitude and Longitude?

To be honest, I don't really buy the lightning argument either. But I'm
not sure some find fault in celestial because it is not accurate to 3
meters.

Jeff,

I'd be very interested in your opinion of where to get an inexpensive
but reliable "windup" clock/watch ?

Thank you,
Courtney