On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 21:42:58 -0500, Jeff wrote:

On this I think you're dead wrong in piloting situations. I'm not
saying I'd throw away my GPS (or the spare) but only a fool ignores a
depth sounder, compass bearings, log, radar, etc.

Of course, indispensible for coastal piloting.

The original statement that I rebutted was that "no one should rely
solely on GPS when OFFSHORE".

Where I come from offshore means off soundings, and the only thing you
will see on your radar is other boats.

Dead reckoning is fine but after several days OFFSHORE you will be
lucky if your DR plot is within 10 miles of actual.

I stand by my statement, there are no viable OFFSHORE alternatives to
GPS.

Wayne.B wrote in
:

On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 21:42:58 -0500, Jeff wrote:

On this I think you're dead wrong in piloting situations. I'm not
saying I'd throw away my GPS (or the spare) but only a fool ignores a
depth sounder, compass bearings, log, radar, etc.

Of course, indispensible for coastal piloting.

The original statement that I rebutted was that "no one should rely
solely on GPS when OFFSHORE".

Where I come from offshore means off soundings, and the only thing you
will see on your radar is other boats.

Dead reckoning is fine but after several days OFFSHORE you will be
lucky if your DR plot is within 10 miles of actual.

I stand by my statement, there are no viable OFFSHORE alternatives to
GPS.



Gee, I wonder how I navigated all over the world, offshore, prior to GPS,
if I had no viable alternative to GPS.

otn

That same bolt of lightening will take out your calculator so you then
have to work stars long hand. It'll also kill your digital watch and
radio so you won't have the correct time. It'll probably short out your
boat so you won't be able to work the stars out until light the next
morning. The lightening excuse to learn astro is BS. Learn it because
you want to or take a couple extra handheld GPS. Practice dead
reckoning. Know where you are all the time.

Gaz

Let's see...... calculator gone, long hand star calc's....add a minute or
two to the solution.
digital watch killed..... in that case I'm probably dead too so what do I
care.... always have a mechanical clock that you know the error...no big
deal, was done for years.
lights out?....lite a candle or wait till daylight.... what the hell, it's
offshore navigation, what's the rush....

Well, Genius, Weather is a predicable navigation tool. I'd teach you
but then you would have to admit you were wrong and self proclaimed
geniuses are never wrong. Weather, waves, currents, shape of waves and
much more can be used to accurately navigate. The south Pacific
mariners used that form of navigation very efficiently as do I.

Why is it that you don't like the idea of needing to know/learn
something?
My watch never got hurt when we were hit. My clock never got hurt. My
TV that had a clock didn't get hurt but that clock sped up. NOTHING
WAS HURT because I knew when to turn the power off and navigate like a
sailor!

As for celestial, I think I made a point that I use my sextant more for
weather observation then anything else, but I have ALWAYS done my math
longhand on paper. If you don't, you don't know celestial.
Computers are great, I'm on one now, but I trust paper charts, and
old school learning.

The lightning excuse is not BS. Fighting someone who recommends being
smarter is BS. This is why I only come here once in a while, that and
the fact that I am more often then not out to sea as I will be in a few
weeks. I'm sorry if I stepped on your only chance to feel important.
I was giving information to someone that wanted to learn and someone
that might actually go sailing and lose sight of land. You don't need
to stick your head in to protect anything. I will be out sailing again
soon and your little domain will be yours again to spread stupidly with
your other slip sailing friends.

Keep your armchair warm and stay dry. You're suited for it.

You didn't navigate, your gps did. I'm very glad you made it safely but
get real. If you don't know something, don't be proud of it. I can do
anything you can with a gps but can you do what I can? If not, why
not? You life is not the only one you are responsible for when you are
out there. If you need something, ever, and don't have it to use, and
it was easy to get, how stupid are you.

These things fall into the same thought train as thoughts I give my
pilot students - you can never use runway behind you, gas in the truck,
altitude above you, and in this case, knowledge in someone else's head.

You have not sailed much then. Where I come from, water can be 2 feet
deep and there hasn't been land in sight for a long long time. Sail the
Caribbean, Maldives, South Pacific, or any of many other areas where
reef and rock is just waiting to bite you in your butt.

I also never said to try to dead recon anywhere. I said you sure as
hell better know how if you need to!

Navigation is using all means to know where you are at all times. I use
a gps and I double check my position with what ever is available, then
I check it on my chart to be sure everything agrees and I log it with
the current weather conditions and I do it every half hour when my
timer goes off. If you use one thing and trust it, how smart are you?

You want to turn some sort of table with your side handed comments but
you really should be open to a little learning. You're not the only
one you could kill. Arrogance is not praiseworthy. What have you got
against learning something or at least letting someone else learn it.

If you don't understand it, it doesn't make it worthless.

Da Kine wrote:
Differential, WAAS and so on only work in certain areas where it is
transmitted. It does not work, as far as I know, in most of the
cruising grounds like The Bahamas and south. If I am wrong, correct me
but I am pretty sure about that.

Certainly the DGPS and WAAS is more reliable and more widely available
than waves and clouds for navigation.

But neither are critical unless you need to know where you are down to
two or three yards. Even GPS without SA shut off was good enough for
most users.


There is one way to counter a strike that is well known. It is to cover
your building with chicken wire. Doing so lets the current go around
what is inside. Tinfoil does the same thing (so we hope). I stated that
I don't know anyone that has first hand knowledge of a strike and
tinfoil. Unless you know of someone that lost a gps that was wrapped in
foil from a strike, please refrain from being so predictably newsgroup
anal. There is good information to be had and most everyone has
surprisingly behaved themselves. Do you really want to be the one who
knows everything except doesn't?

You cover your boat with chicken wire and don't forget the ball cap.

Da Kine wrote:
Well, Genius, Weather is a predicable navigation tool. I'd teach you
but then you would have to admit you were wrong and self proclaimed
geniuses are never wrong. Weather, waves, currents, shape of waves and
much more can be used to accurately navigate. The south Pacific
mariners used that form of navigation very efficiently as do I.

Tell me where you went navigating by weather.

otnmbrd wrote:
That same bolt of lightening will take out your calculator so you then
have to work stars long hand. It'll also kill your digital watch and
radio so you won't have the correct time. It'll probably short out your
boat so you won't be able to work the stars out until light the next
morning. The lightening excuse to learn astro is BS. Learn it because
you want to or take a couple extra handheld GPS. Practice dead
reckoning. Know where you are all the time.

Gaz


Let's see...... calculator gone, long hand star calc's....add a minute or
two to the solution.
digital watch killed..... in that case I'm probably dead too so what do I
care.... always have a mechanical clock that you know the error...no big
deal, was done for years.
lights out?....lite a candle or wait till daylight.... what the hell, it's
offshore navigation, what's the rush....
And how did you check the error on that deck watch? Radio? What was the
error and how much does it change daily? Can't just do the time check
anymore. Damn lightening.