Did a little reading last night about what the designers and builders of
multis say. From Morrelli: Crossing the pond 45 foot minimum, excluding the
Bay of Biscay, all notorious capes, and staying within 40 North and South.
After that add 10-15 foot and you are still marginal for the Capes. The
other designers tended to agree with this basic premise.

I would tend to agree with Morrelli although smaller multi's have made
passages outside of these parameters. Lucky?

Bryan




"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...
They don't really have more capacity
or cubic, it's just less cave-like. They do have bigger
cockpits and immensely more deck space.


Both the Gemini and PDQ I sailed had more room below (Than my 32 or 35
footers) and the central salon was more practical. The hull cabin space
was a bit tight. The deck space is obvious. But is this all a logical
comparison? The 36 foot PDQ IS a bigger boat and than a 36 foot
monohul. We tend to talk about boat size only by LOA, but the beam is
of equal importance. Someone take a top view of a cat and STRETCH it
until it's beam is like that of a monohul. How long would it be....?
Silly, but when it comes to cats we have to abandon the LOA factor as a
primary guage for size. Does anyone have the Cubic interior on a Cat
vs. Mono?

RB
Beneteau 35s5
NY

Bryan wrote:
Did a little reading last night about what the designers and builders of
multis say. From Morrelli: Crossing the pond 45 foot minimum, excluding the
Bay of Biscay, all notorious capes, and staying within 40 North and South.
After that add 10-15 foot and you are still marginal for the Capes. The
other designers tended to agree with this basic premise.

Morrelli designs tend to be aggressive, not conservative, so I'm not
surprised that they suggest a larger size. Certainly a huge number of
smaller Prouts have crossed oceans and circumnavigated without
incident. They built about 4000 cats, most in the 34-37 foot range
and they've sailed all over the world without a single capsize. But
my friends tell me it takes about 25 knots to get their 37 up to
speed. Their boat has made several Atlantic crossings.


I would tend to agree with Morrelli although smaller multi's have made
passages outside of these parameters. Lucky?


This is more of a philosophical question. What probability of success
would you consider "nominal"? I don't think I would make a crossing
if I thought the disaster rate was 10%, and I'd like to see it well
below 1%. But to be considered "really safe" you'd probably want 0.1%
or even better.

Smaller Benehuntalinas have crossed the pond many times; were they
lucky? I'd certainly take a Prout 37 over any of them. Would you
cross in a Hunter 36?

Going to the original question, my family and I have been living aboard
cruising catamarans since 1996. First a PDQ 36 and now a St Francis
44. This question comes up a lot, so I'm going to answer it as fully
as I can because I believe it's a good question that is sometimes
incompletely answered.

*Speed. Our St Francis will do around 8 knots in 11 knots of wind, at
15 knots of wind we break into double digits. Under power we can go
over 10 knots. There are faster monohulls out there, but our boat has
3 heads, a galley with 9 ft of counterspace and a 3 burner stove, an
massive arch with a dingy hanging off it. We're not trying to break
speed records, but it's a good performing boat. This is without
flying a chute.

*Stability. I don't see it actually from a comfort point of view as
much as safety. If the boat doesn't rotate 45 degrees because of
fluke wind shift it means my wife and son don't get thrown around like
rag dolls.

*N+1. This is a geek term. It means that most systems are redundant.
Two motors, two fuel tanks connecting the motors, two water tanks and
two water pumps, two seperate battery banks, etc, etc. What this
means in practical terms is you can have an engine overheat and still
make 6 knots on the remaining engine while CHOOSING where you want to
repair the fault, rather than having to do it immediately. That's a
big deal when trying to fight your way into a narrow port entrance in a
gale directly against the wind. Been through that particular scenario
several times.

*Positive bouyancy. I know quite a few different PDQ 36's out there,
and one lost both of it's keels being up on a reef. Another had it's
transom ripped off by a boat, one crashed it's bow against a bulkhead
3 feet back, and my actual boat had at one time a 2 ft hole smashed
into her from a race (previous owner!!) on her starboard side. None
sank. All are sailing now.

*Privacy with guests. It's nice having guests over, we have them
often. But they are in a seperate hull, quite on their own. It's the
equivalent of having them in a boat one slip over. It makes having
guests over twice as fun.

*Aft Arch. We can and do carry a large RIB ready to go at a moments
notice with 4 175 watt solar panels. Having a nice fat transom makes
that possible. While cruising non of the 5 monohulls we cruised with
would even bother launching their dingy's because they knew we could be
over, pick them up and have them to the beach before they could get
their own dingy ready for the water. That translates also in being
able to address a problem quickly underway. I can stop and launch a
dingy to assist another boat in just 3 or 4 minutes.

*large wide decks. I can go up forward in a hurricane with a spare
anchor in my hand and stick to the middle of the boat and know that I
wont go over the side. I can go up forward in any conditions (but I
do clip onto a jack line) and know that I have 10 ft of clearance
between myself and the side of the boat. That's a huge safety issue
to me and my wife. I saw one artical about a monohull sailor who'd
been clippen into a jackline, fell overboard from the bow and was
dragged in the water for far too long. That can't happen to me, I
can't fall on a 6 ft tether 10 ft from the middle to the side of the
boat.

*Shallow draft. Every tropical storm or hurricane that I've been in I
could head into a hurricane hole inaccessible to most monohulls. The
shallow draft anchorage also means that I typically can go to a close
beach with my dingy in shallow protected water.
Big issue there that no one seems to realize. In Georgetown in the
bahamas I was able to anchor in a huge storm in a very small protected
anchorage right outside town in 4 feet of water. No one else could
get into town, I could simply row a few feet to the beach and walk in.

*Good visibility from inside. I can on the settee, warm and snug at
an anchorage, and look out and see what boats are breaking free from a
storm. Sitting in your cockpit during a storm as an anchor watch is
relatively uncomfortable, and many people therefore don't do it as much
as they should and the first sign of a problem is the thud of a boat
hitting them that's broken free.

*Cost. Our St Francis has the space of a 50 ft mono, but not the
costs. Price per foot may be greater on most cat's then most
monohulls, but price per ft of interior living space is often less.

*twin short keels. It allows us to "walk" off a beach and easily
kedge ourselves back into the water should we drag onto the shore (ok,
not too proud to admit that). But imagine having dragged anchor in the
middle of the night. In a monohull you'd be woken up by the fact they
you are lying completely on your side with waves threatening to wash
into your cockpit and down the companionway. At best, you would call
sea tow. I woke up, perfectly upright, realized the soft mud didn't
hold my anchor, and lowered the dingy and kedged myself off the bar in
about 15 minutes. My wife prepared breakfast while I did that.

*Most catamaran thru hulls are above the waterline. I've seen too
many monohulls sink because a hose fitting for their sinks came loose
during the night. I've also had my hose fittings also come loose on
my galley sink drain, and had to tighten them again. That's it. No
water rushing in, no panics. Many monohulls have a dozen or more thru
hulls. I have less than half of their below water thru hulls, and
were a thru hull to come loose, it's not as low in the water because
the water intakes don't have to be extra low to compensate for heeling.
That means far less water pressure, therefore less water coming in,
and my bilge pumps can easily keep up. Even if they couldn't
watertight bulkheads would prevent it from spreading very far and worse
case after around 2 ft the positive flotation in the bow and stern
would prevent the boat from going any further down. Not nice, but it
wouldn't sink.

*Capsizing - Some believe that the monohull ability to heel to dump a
gust of wind gives them an advantage because the catamaran can't heel.
True, cat's don't heel. We accelerate. That's the way catamarans
have the same "pressure valve" for dumping unexpected gusts, we can't
heel, therefore the force is directed into motion forward. That's the
safety valve. I've been in the gulf stream in November, in large
waves and trade winds down in the caribbean, I go fast. While going
fast I can take my time and reef the sails without worrying about
falling over the rails. I think the reason this keeps coming up is
that every serious cruiser in a monohull has had a knock down and that
fear is very present in their minds. I've been in the same wind gusts
on a monohull and a catamaran. The monohull was knocked down and then
righted itself, the catamaran just went faster. We do tend to
compensate for this by sailing more by the numbers than a monohull
would (reef at 20 knots, reef again at 30 knots, even if it feels
completely under control).

I hope this helps some who are looking at catamarans. Almost every
reason I have isn't due to convenience, it's due to safety.

Cheers,

Doug and Cindy and Zach
St Francis 44
Annapolis, MD

On 14 Jan 2006 21:49:36 -0800, "boatgeek"
wrote:

Going to the original question, my family and I have been living aboard
cruising catamarans since 1996. First a PDQ 36 and now a St Francis
44.

Do you have any difficulty getting dock space?

boatgeek wrote:
Going to the original question, my family and I have been living aboard
cruising catamarans since 1996. First a PDQ 36 and now a St Francis
44. This question comes up a lot, so I'm going to answer it as fully
as I can because I believe it's a good question that is sometimes
incompletely answered.

*Speed. Our St Francis will do around 8 knots in 11 knots of wind, at
15 knots of wind we break into double digits. Under power we can go
over 10 knots. There are faster monohulls out there, but our boat has
3 heads, a galley with 9 ft of counterspace and a 3 burner stove, an
massive arch with a dingy hanging off it. We're not trying to break
speed records, but it's a good performing boat. This is without
flying a chute.

*Stability. I don't see it actually from a comfort point of view as
much as safety. If the boat doesn't rotate 45 degrees because of
fluke wind shift it means my wife and son don't get thrown around like
rag dolls.

*N+1. This is a geek term. It means that most systems are redundant.
Two motors, two fuel tanks connecting the motors, two water tanks and
two water pumps, two seperate battery banks, etc, etc. What this
means in practical terms is you can have an engine overheat and still
make 6 knots on the remaining engine while CHOOSING where you want to
repair the fault, rather than having to do it immediately. That's a
big deal when trying to fight your way into a narrow port entrance in a
gale directly against the wind. Been through that particular scenario
several times.

*Positive bouyancy. I know quite a few different PDQ 36's out there,
and one lost both of it's keels being up on a reef. Another had it's
transom ripped off by a boat, one crashed it's bow against a bulkhead
3 feet back, and my actual boat had at one time a 2 ft hole smashed
into her from a race (previous owner!!) on her starboard side. None
sank. All are sailing now.

*Privacy with guests. It's nice having guests over, we have them
often. But they are in a seperate hull, quite on their own. It's the
equivalent of having them in a boat one slip over. It makes having
guests over twice as fun.

*Aft Arch. We can and do carry a large RIB ready to go at a moments
notice with 4 175 watt solar panels. Having a nice fat transom makes
that possible. While cruising non of the 5 monohulls we cruised with
would even bother launching their dingy's because they knew we could be
over, pick them up and have them to the beach before they could get
their own dingy ready for the water. That translates also in being
able to address a problem quickly underway. I can stop and launch a
dingy to assist another boat in just 3 or 4 minutes.

*large wide decks. I can go up forward in a hurricane with a spare
anchor in my hand and stick to the middle of the boat and know that I
wont go over the side. I can go up forward in any conditions (but I
do clip onto a jack line) and know that I have 10 ft of clearance
between myself and the side of the boat. That's a huge safety issue
to me and my wife. I saw one artical about a monohull sailor who'd
been clippen into a jackline, fell overboard from the bow and was
dragged in the water for far too long. That can't happen to me, I
can't fall on a 6 ft tether 10 ft from the middle to the side of the
boat.

*Shallow draft. Every tropical storm or hurricane that I've been in I
could head into a hurricane hole inaccessible to most monohulls. The
shallow draft anchorage also means that I typically can go to a close
beach with my dingy in shallow protected water.
Big issue there that no one seems to realize. In Georgetown in the
bahamas I was able to anchor in a huge storm in a very small protected
anchorage right outside town in 4 feet of water. No one else could
get into town, I could simply row a few feet to the beach and walk in.

*Good visibility from inside. I can on the settee, warm and snug at
an anchorage, and look out and see what boats are breaking free from a
storm. Sitting in your cockpit during a storm as an anchor watch is
relatively uncomfortable, and many people therefore don't do it as much
as they should and the first sign of a problem is the thud of a boat
hitting them that's broken free.

*Cost. Our St Francis has the space of a 50 ft mono, but not the
costs. Price per foot may be greater on most cat's then most
monohulls, but price per ft of interior living space is often less.

*twin short keels. It allows us to "walk" off a beach and easily
kedge ourselves back into the water should we drag onto the shore (ok,
not too proud to admit that). But imagine having dragged anchor in the
middle of the night. In a monohull you'd be woken up by the fact they
you are lying completely on your side with waves threatening to wash
into your cockpit and down the companionway. At best, you would call
sea tow. I woke up, perfectly upright, realized the soft mud didn't
hold my anchor, and lowered the dingy and kedged myself off the bar in
about 15 minutes. My wife prepared breakfast while I did that.

*Most catamaran thru hulls are above the waterline. I've seen too
many monohulls sink because a hose fitting for their sinks came loose
during the night. I've also had my hose fittings also come loose on
my galley sink drain, and had to tighten them again. That's it. No
water rushing in, no panics. Many monohulls have a dozen or more thru
hulls. I have less than half of their below water thru hulls, and
were a thru hull to come loose, it's not as low in the water because
the water intakes don't have to be extra low to compensate for heeling.
That means far less water pressure, therefore less water coming in,
and my bilge pumps can easily keep up. Even if they couldn't
watertight bulkheads would prevent it from spreading very far and worse
case after around 2 ft the positive flotation in the bow and stern
would prevent the boat from going any further down. Not nice, but it
wouldn't sink.

*Capsizing - Some believe that the monohull ability to heel to dump a
gust of wind gives them an advantage because the catamaran can't heel.
True, cat's don't heel. We accelerate. That's the way catamarans
have the same "pressure valve" for dumping unexpected gusts, we can't
heel, therefore the force is directed into motion forward. That's the
safety valve. I've been in the gulf stream in November, in large
waves and trade winds down in the caribbean, I go fast. While going
fast I can take my time and reef the sails without worrying about
falling over the rails. I think the reason this keeps coming up is
that every serious cruiser in a monohull has had a knock down and that
fear is very present in their minds. I've been in the same wind gusts
on a monohull and a catamaran. The monohull was knocked down and then
righted itself, the catamaran just went faster. We do tend to
compensate for this by sailing more by the numbers than a monohull
would (reef at 20 knots, reef again at 30 knots, even if it feels
completely under control).

I hope this helps some who are looking at catamarans. Almost every
reason I have isn't due to convenience, it's due to safety.

Cheers,

Doug and Cindy and Zach
St Francis 44
Annapolis, MD

Great post! Very informative.

Thanks,
Gaz

On 14 Jan 2006 21:49:36 -0800, "boatgeek"
wrote:


I hope this helps some who are looking at catamarans. Almost every
reason I have isn't due to convenience, it's due to safety.

That was quite informative. Thank you.

R.

boatgeek wrote:



*Speed. Our St Francis will do around 8 knots in 11 knots of wind, at
15 knots of wind we break into double digits.

No arguement there, multis go faster because they are not displacment
hulls.

*Stability. I don't see it actually from a comfort point of view as
much as safety. If the boat doesn't rotate 45 degrees because of
fluke wind shift it means my wife and son don't get thrown around like
rag dolls.

Strong winds do not suddenly shift like that. You can get that in light
airs
and then such an effect is minimal on the boat. Of course, an
accidental
jig could cause some problems, but we won't address that.





*Positive bouyancy.

This could be incorporated into a monohull, if it was a high
priority objective.

. I can stop and launch a
dingy to assist another boat in just 3 or 4 minutes.

I tow my dinghy behind the boat, so launching is not an issue.



*large wide decks.

A possible advantage.



*Shallow draft.

This is a definite advantage for places like the Bahamas.

*Good visibility from inside.

Monohulls have windows, don't they?




*twin short keels. It allows us to "walk" off a beach and easily
kedge ourselves back into the water should we drag onto the shore (ok,
not too proud to admit that). But imagine having dragged anchor in the
middle of the night. In a monohull you'd be woken up by the fact they
you are lying completely on your side with waves threatening to wash
into your cockpit and down the companionway.

On the contrary, you get woken up when your keel starts bumping on the
bottom, and you don't go over, you just sit where you are, aground. You

are in an anchorage where despite strong winds, you should not get
big waves.



*Most catamaran thru hulls are above the waterline. I've seen too
many monohulls sink because a hose fitting for their sinks came loose
during the night. I've also had my hose fittings also come loose on
my galley sink drain, and had to tighten them again. That's it. No
water rushing in, no panics.

This kind of design is not peculiar to multihulls. My monohull has all
it's thru hulls below the water line.

Many monohulls have a dozen or more thru
hulls. I have less than half of their below water thru hulls, and
were a thru hull to come loose, it's not as low in the water because
the water intakes don't have to be extra low to compensate for heeling.

Monohulls do not require more thru hulls than multihulls.


*Capsizing - Some believe that the monohull ability to heel to dump a
gust of wind gives them an advantage because the catamaran can't heel.
True, cat's don't heel. We accelerate.

There is a limit to how fast your catamaran will go. I have seen
pictures
of catamarans with one hull lifted out of the water. A strong enough
wind is going to blow it over.

All else aside, a catamaran has two basic STABLE configurations, upright

and upside down. A monohull has only one STABLE configuration, upright.

That's the way catamarans
have the same "pressure valve" for dumping unexpected gusts, we can't
heel, therefore the force is directed into motion forward. That's the
safety valve.

When your upwind hull comes out of the water, there goes your safety
valve.
Wave action can contribute to this problem. I can judge this problem
easily
on a monohull by the amount of heel. On a catamaran, you have to be a
very
good judge of speed, or otherwise you will have little warning, except
for the
upwind hull coming up, and by then, it may be too late.

I've been in the gulf stream in November, in large
waves and trade winds down in the caribbean, I go fast.

I think you have been very lucky up to now.

While going
fast I can take my time and reef the sails without worrying about
falling over the rails. I think the reason this keeps coming up is
that every serious cruiser in a monohull has had a knock down and that
fear is very present in their minds.

The serious monohull sailors keep their sail plan under control by
reefing,
heaving to, or going bare pole, so most of them don't experience knock
downs.

I've been in the same wind gusts
on a monohull and a catamaran. The monohull was knocked down and then
righted itself, the catamaran just went faster. We do tend to
compensate for this by sailing more by the numbers than a monohull
would (reef at 20 knots, reef again at 30 knots, even if it feels
completely under control).

I hope this helps some who are looking at catamarans. Almost every
reason I have isn't due to convenience, it's due to safety.

I agree that multihulls are great for speed and shallow draft. When it
comes
to safety, I completely dissagree. I would not try any remote offshore
cruising
with a catamaran.

The previous postings about losing the mast are not the
prevalent case. More often, the mast is mostly intact, and sailing can
resume.

Sherwin D.



Cheers,

Doug and Cindy and Zach
St Francis 44
Annapolis, MD

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
*Stability. I don't see it actually from a comfort point of view as
much as safety. If the boat doesn't rotate 45 degrees because of
fluke wind shift it means my wife and son don't get thrown around like
rag dolls.

Strong winds do not suddenly shift like that. You can get that in light
airs
and then such an effect is minimal on the boat. Of course, an
accidental
jig could cause some problems, but we won't address that.

They do out here. We have a spot on the bay called Hurricane Gulch. Happens
there all the time.

*Positive bouyancy.

This could be incorporated into a monohull, if it was a high
priority objective.

. I can stop and launch a
dingy to assist another boat in just 3 or 4 minutes.

I tow my dinghy behind the boat, so launching is not an issue.

On long distance cruises?? That's fine for a couple of hours, but you can
run into real problems with a dinghy under tow, not to mention slowing the
boat.

*large wide decks.

A possible advantage.

I would say huge advantage. It's much harder to accidentally fall off.

*Shallow draft.

This is a definite advantage for places like the Bahamas.

Or any place you want to get close in.

*Good visibility from inside.

Monohulls have windows, don't they?

Sure, but they aren't panoramic. He said "good visibility." :-)

*twin short keels. It allows us to "walk" off a beach and easily
kedge ourselves back into the water should we drag onto the shore (ok,
not too proud to admit that). But imagine having dragged anchor in the
middle of the night. In a monohull you'd be woken up by the fact they
you are lying completely on your side with waves threatening to wash
into your cockpit and down the companionway.

On the contrary, you get woken up when your keel starts bumping on the
bottom, and you don't go over, you just sit where you are, aground. You

Well, possibly true, but I'd rather deal with the situation in an upright
position than on my ear.

Deliberately running aground is also an option to get a decent night's
sleep. It's not great for the bottom paint, but it's much more of an option.
We had to do that in Belize.. that or sail all night (which the charter
company specifically told us not to do, due to fishing pots and small
fishing boats with no lights).

are in an anchorage where despite strong winds, you should not get
big waves.



*Most catamaran thru hulls are above the waterline. I've seen too
many monohulls sink because a hose fitting for their sinks came loose
during the night. I've also had my hose fittings also come loose on
my galley sink drain, and had to tighten them again. That's it. No
water rushing in, no panics.

This kind of design is not peculiar to multihulls. My monohull has all
it's thru hulls below the water line.

I think that's what he said... :-)

*Capsizing - Some believe that the monohull ability to heel to dump a
gust of wind gives them an advantage because the catamaran can't heel.
True, cat's don't heel. We accelerate.

There is a limit to how fast your catamaran will go. I have seen
pictures
of catamarans with one hull lifted out of the water. A strong enough
wind is going to blow it over.

Of course there are limits. There are also limits to how much pressure your
hatch boards can take when bording water. The point is that instead of
heeling, the multi sails faster.

All else aside, a catamaran has two basic STABLE configurations, upright

and upside down. A monohull has only one STABLE configuration, upright.

Nope. It's got two. Upright on the top and upright on the bottom. :-)

That's the way catamarans
have the same "pressure valve" for dumping unexpected gusts, we can't
heel, therefore the force is directed into motion forward. That's the
safety valve.

When your upwind hull comes out of the water, there goes your safety
valve.
Wave action can contribute to this problem. I can judge this problem
easily
on a monohull by the amount of heel. On a catamaran, you have to be a
very
good judge of speed, or otherwise you will have little warning, except
for the
upwind hull coming up, and by then, it may be too late.

True, especially on crusing cats. However, this an extremely rare occurance
and just a bit of careful thought will prevent it.

I've been in the gulf stream in November, in large
waves and trade winds down in the caribbean, I go fast.

I think you have been very lucky up to now.

I think he's probably very skilled.

While going
fast I can take my time and reef the sails without worrying about
falling over the rails. I think the reason this keeps coming up is
that every serious cruiser in a monohull has had a knock down and that
fear is very present in their minds.

The serious monohull sailors keep their sail plan under control by
reefing,
heaving to, or going bare pole, so most of them don't experience knock
downs.

Absolutely true! ... as should all sailors.

I've been in the same wind gusts
on a monohull and a catamaran. The monohull was knocked down and then
righted itself, the catamaran just went faster. We do tend to
compensate for this by sailing more by the numbers than a monohull
would (reef at 20 knots, reef again at 30 knots, even if it feels
completely under control).

I hope this helps some who are looking at catamarans. Almost every
reason I have isn't due to convenience, it's due to safety.

I agree that multihulls are great for speed and shallow draft. When it
comes
to safety, I completely dissagree. I would not try any remote offshore
cruising
with a catamaran.

You would be in a vocal majority, ill-informed as they are. Many, many
multis have crossed oceans even in terrible conditions and had no problems
at all. Same is true of monos. Both types of vessel can and are seakindly in
extreme conditions. One of the jobs of an experienced skipper is to avoid
extreme conditions.

The previous postings about losing the mast are not the
prevalent case. More often, the mast is mostly intact, and sailing can
resume.

More often? Not sure I agree. If you have sails up and the boat turtles, I
think there's a good probability you're going to lose your rig. All the
time? No. But a significant amount of time to make it common.

Well said, and a great post from boatgeek.

Another important consideration is the effect of heeling and rolling on crew
performance. The U.S. naval study of this by JB Hadler and TH Sarchin (see
The Cruising Multihull by Chris White) found that a sustained 10 degree roll
angle reduced ability to perform routine tasks by as much as 50%!

sherwindu has contributed one important fact to this discussion when in his
first post he stated "I have never even sailed on a cat myself".

Cheers

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
*Stability. I don't see it actually from a comfort point of view as
much as safety. If the boat doesn't rotate 45 degrees because of
fluke wind shift it means my wife and son don't get thrown around like
rag dolls.

Strong winds do not suddenly shift like that. You can get that in
light
airs
and then such an effect is minimal on the boat. Of course, an
accidental
jig could cause some problems, but we won't address that.

They do out here. We have a spot on the bay called Hurricane Gulch.
Happens there all the time.

*Positive bouyancy.

This could be incorporated into a monohull, if it was a high
priority objective.

. I can stop and launch a
dingy to assist another boat in just 3 or 4 minutes.

I tow my dinghy behind the boat, so launching is not an issue.

On long distance cruises?? That's fine for a couple of hours, but you can
run into real problems with a dinghy under tow, not to mention slowing the
boat.

*large wide decks.

A possible advantage.

I would say huge advantage. It's much harder to accidentally fall off.

*Shallow draft.

This is a definite advantage for places like the Bahamas.

Or any place you want to get close in.

*Good visibility from inside.

Monohulls have windows, don't they?

Sure, but they aren't panoramic. He said "good visibility." :-)

*twin short keels. It allows us to "walk" off a beach and easily
kedge ourselves back into the water should we drag onto the shore (ok,
not too proud to admit that). But imagine having dragged anchor in the
middle of the night. In a monohull you'd be woken up by the fact they
you are lying completely on your side with waves threatening to wash
into your cockpit and down the companionway.

On the contrary, you get woken up when your keel starts bumping on the
bottom, and you don't go over, you just sit where you are, aground.
You

Well, possibly true, but I'd rather deal with the situation in an upright
position than on my ear.

Deliberately running aground is also an option to get a decent night's
sleep. It's not great for the bottom paint, but it's much more of an
option. We had to do that in Belize.. that or sail all night (which the
charter company specifically told us not to do, due to fishing pots and
small fishing boats with no lights).

are in an anchorage where despite strong winds, you should not get
big waves.



*Most catamaran thru hulls are above the waterline. I've seen too
many monohulls sink because a hose fitting for their sinks came loose
during the night. I've also had my hose fittings also come loose on
my galley sink drain, and had to tighten them again. That's it. No
water rushing in, no panics.

This kind of design is not peculiar to multihulls. My monohull has all
it's thru hulls below the water line.

I think that's what he said... :-)

*Capsizing - Some believe that the monohull ability to heel to dump a
gust of wind gives them an advantage because the catamaran can't heel.
True, cat's don't heel. We accelerate.

There is a limit to how fast your catamaran will go. I have seen
pictures
of catamarans with one hull lifted out of the water. A strong enough
wind is going to blow it over.

Of course there are limits. There are also limits to how much pressure
your hatch boards can take when bording water. The point is that instead
of heeling, the multi sails faster.

All else aside, a catamaran has two basic STABLE configurations,
upright

and upside down. A monohull has only one STABLE configuration,
upright.

Nope. It's got two. Upright on the top and upright on the bottom. :-)

That's the way catamarans
have the same "pressure valve" for dumping unexpected gusts, we can't
heel, therefore the force is directed into motion forward. That's the
safety valve.

When your upwind hull comes out of the water, there goes your safety
valve.
Wave action can contribute to this problem. I can judge this problem
easily
on a monohull by the amount of heel. On a catamaran, you have to be a
very
good judge of speed, or otherwise you will have little warning, except
for the
upwind hull coming up, and by then, it may be too late.

True, especially on crusing cats. However, this an extremely rare
occurance and just a bit of careful thought will prevent it.

I've been in the gulf stream in November, in large
waves and trade winds down in the caribbean, I go fast.

I think you have been very lucky up to now.

I think he's probably very skilled.

While going
fast I can take my time and reef the sails without worrying about
falling over the rails. I think the reason this keeps coming up is
that every serious cruiser in a monohull has had a knock down and that
fear is very present in their minds.

The serious monohull sailors keep their sail plan under control by
reefing,
heaving to, or going bare pole, so most of them don't experience knock
downs.

Absolutely true! ... as should all sailors.

I've been in the same wind gusts
on a monohull and a catamaran. The monohull was knocked down and then
righted itself, the catamaran just went faster. We do tend to
compensate for this by sailing more by the numbers than a monohull
would (reef at 20 knots, reef again at 30 knots, even if it feels
completely under control).

I hope this helps some who are looking at catamarans. Almost every
reason I have isn't due to convenience, it's due to safety.

I agree that multihulls are great for speed and shallow draft. When it
comes
to safety, I completely dissagree. I would not try any remote offshore
cruising
with a catamaran.

You would be in a vocal majority, ill-informed as they are. Many, many
multis have crossed oceans even in terrible conditions and had no problems
at all. Same is true of monos. Both types of vessel can and are seakindly
in extreme conditions. One of the jobs of an experienced skipper is to
avoid extreme conditions.

The previous postings about losing the mast are not the
prevalent case. More often, the mast is mostly intact, and sailing can
resume.

More often? Not sure I agree. If you have sails up and the boat turtles, I
think there's a good probability you're going to lose your rig. All the
time? No. But a significant amount of time to make it common.

I can only speak from the experience of being on a heeling boat for 1/2
month at a time. It gets old pretty fast... everything needs to be nailed
down or, as I tell my students, it will end up safely on the floor.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Paddy Malone" wrote in message
...
Well said, and a great post from boatgeek.

Another important consideration is the effect of heeling and rolling on
crew performance. The U.S. naval study of this by JB Hadler and TH Sarchin
(see The Cruising Multihull by Chris White) found that a sustained 10
degree roll angle reduced ability to perform routine tasks by as much as
50%!

sherwindu has contributed one important fact to this discussion when in
his first post he stated "I have never even sailed on a cat myself".

Cheers

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
*Stability. I don't see it actually from a comfort point of view as
much as safety. If the boat doesn't rotate 45 degrees because of
fluke wind shift it means my wife and son don't get thrown around like
rag dolls.

Strong winds do not suddenly shift like that. You can get that in
light
airs
and then such an effect is minimal on the boat. Of course, an
accidental
jig could cause some problems, but we won't address that.

They do out here. We have a spot on the bay called Hurricane Gulch.
Happens there all the time.

*Positive bouyancy.

This could be incorporated into a monohull, if it was a high
priority objective.

. I can stop and launch a
dingy to assist another boat in just 3 or 4 minutes.

I tow my dinghy behind the boat, so launching is not an issue.

On long distance cruises?? That's fine for a couple of hours, but you can
run into real problems with a dinghy under tow, not to mention slowing
the boat.

*large wide decks.

A possible advantage.

I would say huge advantage. It's much harder to accidentally fall off.

*Shallow draft.

This is a definite advantage for places like the Bahamas.

Or any place you want to get close in.

*Good visibility from inside.

Monohulls have windows, don't they?

Sure, but they aren't panoramic. He said "good visibility." :-)

*twin short keels. It allows us to "walk" off a beach and easily
kedge ourselves back into the water should we drag onto the shore (ok,
not too proud to admit that). But imagine having dragged anchor in the
middle of the night. In a monohull you'd be woken up by the fact they
you are lying completely on your side with waves threatening to wash
into your cockpit and down the companionway.

On the contrary, you get woken up when your keel starts bumping on the
bottom, and you don't go over, you just sit where you are, aground.
You

Well, possibly true, but I'd rather deal with the situation in an upright
position than on my ear.

Deliberately running aground is also an option to get a decent night's
sleep. It's not great for the bottom paint, but it's much more of an
option. We had to do that in Belize.. that or sail all night (which the
charter company specifically told us not to do, due to fishing pots and
small fishing boats with no lights).

are in an anchorage where despite strong winds, you should not get
big waves.



*Most catamaran thru hulls are above the waterline. I've seen too
many monohulls sink because a hose fitting for their sinks came loose
during the night. I've also had my hose fittings also come loose on
my galley sink drain, and had to tighten them again. That's it. No
water rushing in, no panics.

This kind of design is not peculiar to multihulls. My monohull has
all
it's thru hulls below the water line.

I think that's what he said... :-)

*Capsizing - Some believe that the monohull ability to heel to dump a
gust of wind gives them an advantage because the catamaran can't heel.
True, cat's don't heel. We accelerate.

There is a limit to how fast your catamaran will go. I have seen
pictures
of catamarans with one hull lifted out of the water. A strong enough
wind is going to blow it over.

Of course there are limits. There are also limits to how much pressure
your hatch boards can take when bording water. The point is that instead
of heeling, the multi sails faster.

All else aside, a catamaran has two basic STABLE configurations,
upright

and upside down. A monohull has only one STABLE configuration,
upright.

Nope. It's got two. Upright on the top and upright on the bottom. :-)

That's the way catamarans
have the same "pressure valve" for dumping unexpected gusts, we can't
heel, therefore the force is directed into motion forward. That's the
safety valve.

When your upwind hull comes out of the water, there goes your safety
valve.
Wave action can contribute to this problem. I can judge this problem
easily
on a monohull by the amount of heel. On a catamaran, you have to be a
very
good judge of speed, or otherwise you will have little warning, except
for the
upwind hull coming up, and by then, it may be too late.

True, especially on crusing cats. However, this an extremely rare
occurance and just a bit of careful thought will prevent it.

I've been in the gulf stream in November, in large
waves and trade winds down in the caribbean, I go fast.

I think you have been very lucky up to now.

I think he's probably very skilled.

While going
fast I can take my time and reef the sails without worrying about
falling over the rails. I think the reason this keeps coming up is
that every serious cruiser in a monohull has had a knock down and that
fear is very present in their minds.

The serious monohull sailors keep their sail plan under control by
reefing,
heaving to, or going bare pole, so most of them don't experience
knock
downs.

Absolutely true! ... as should all sailors.

I've been in the same wind gusts
on a monohull and a catamaran. The monohull was knocked down and then
righted itself, the catamaran just went faster. We do tend to
compensate for this by sailing more by the numbers than a monohull
would (reef at 20 knots, reef again at 30 knots, even if it feels
completely under control).

I hope this helps some who are looking at catamarans. Almost every
reason I have isn't due to convenience, it's due to safety.

I agree that multihulls are great for speed and shallow draft. When
it
comes
to safety, I completely dissagree. I would not try any remote
offshore
cruising
with a catamaran.

You would be in a vocal majority, ill-informed as they are. Many, many
multis have crossed oceans even in terrible conditions and had no
problems at all. Same is true of monos. Both types of vessel can and are
seakindly in extreme conditions. One of the jobs of an experienced
skipper is to avoid extreme conditions.

The previous postings about losing the mast are not the
prevalent case. More often, the mast is mostly intact, and sailing
can
resume.

More often? Not sure I agree. If you have sails up and the boat turtles,
I think there's a good probability you're going to lose your rig. All the
time? No. But a significant amount of time to make it common.