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  #31   Report Post  
Old December 2nd 05, 02:44 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
otnmbrd
 
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Default On serious bilge pumping........

Gary wrote in news:[email protected]:

otnmbrd wrote:
"Roger Long" wrote in news:qPkjf.51442$uC3.511
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:


No terribly clear but, buoys were never intended to be used without
charts.



I would disagree with that statement, to a point.
The general flow of buoys (sticking to the East Coast,USA) is North
to South, East to West (E-W is "old school") coming from sea.
What this meant was that if you should see a buoy while moving along
the coast and for whatever reason, you didn't have a chart/chart out
of date/you're lost, based on the "N-S", you would know which side to
pass. With out a doubt, a chart is your best bet to see and
understand what the buoys mean, but be sure you look at the "BIG"
picture of an area to check the overall direction the system is
taking.

otn

That wouldn't work around Vancouver Island. I think your N-S, E-W
premise is wrong. The buoyage system is meant to relate to the
direction of flooding tides and around here it is very difficult,
without a chart and/or tide table, to know which direction the flood
goes.


The N-S is East Coast ..... West Coast is S-N (W-E, old school) and
again this is a general along the coast, coming from sea.
Once you get into (In your case, the Straits and Pujet sound) an
"inland" area, you will need to understand the flow of your area.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting running without charts .... if
anything, I prefer having a small and large scale of an area I'm
transiting ( the small may help you determine tide flow .... barring
stopping and watching, if you don't have tables or some other means of
determining).
My point was, that knowing some buoy basics, can help you figure out a
system as well keep you in clear water when running an area you may not
be readily familiar with.

otn

  #32   Report Post  
Old December 2nd 05, 03:46 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Gary
 
Posts: n/a
Default On serious bilge pumping........

otnmbrd wrote:
Gary wrote in news:[email protected]:


otnmbrd wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in news:qPkjf.51442$uC3.511
:



No terribly clear but, buoys were never intended to be used without
charts.



I would disagree with that statement, to a point.
The general flow of buoys (sticking to the East Coast,USA) is North
to South, East to West (E-W is "old school") coming from sea.
What this meant was that if you should see a buoy while moving along
the coast and for whatever reason, you didn't have a chart/chart out
of date/you're lost, based on the "N-S", you would know which side to
pass. With out a doubt, a chart is your best bet to see and
understand what the buoys mean, but be sure you look at the "BIG"
picture of an area to check the overall direction the system is
taking.

otn


That wouldn't work around Vancouver Island. I think your N-S, E-W
premise is wrong. The buoyage system is meant to relate to the
direction of flooding tides and around here it is very difficult,
without a chart and/or tide table, to know which direction the flood
goes.



The N-S is East Coast ..... West Coast is S-N (W-E, old school) and
again this is a general along the coast, coming from sea.
Once you get into (In your case, the Straits and Pujet sound) an
"inland" area, you will need to understand the flow of your area.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting running without charts .... if
anything, I prefer having a small and large scale of an area I'm
transiting ( the small may help you determine tide flow .... barring
stopping and watching, if you don't have tables or some other means of
determining).
My point was, that knowing some buoy basics, can help you figure out a
system as well keep you in clear water when running an area you may not
be readily familiar with.

otn

The NS and SN of the two coasts is the direction of the flood tides in
general. The actual rule for buoys is "returning from seaward" which is
defacto the same as the flood tide. It has nothing to do with the NS/SN
stuff. Never mind the buoys, have a chart. Buoys drag, break free, are
hit by ships, get covered in bird****, and are frequently wrong. Always
look at the best scale, up-to-date chart for the area. If you are over
66 feet, it's the law.
  #33   Report Post  
Old December 2nd 05, 05:16 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
otnmbrd
 
Posts: n/a
Default On serious bilge pumping........


"Gary" wrote in message news:

The NS and SN of the two coasts is the direction of the flood tides in
general. The actual rule for buoys is "returning from seaward" which is
defacto the same as the flood tide. It has nothing to do with the NS/SN
stuff. Never mind the buoys, have a chart. Buoys drag, break free, are
hit by ships, get covered in bird****, and are frequently wrong. Always
look at the best scale, up-to-date chart for the area. If you are over 66
feet, it's the law.


Find the latest Bowditch and read Article 519 .......

otn




  #34   Report Post  
Old December 2nd 05, 11:22 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Roger Long
 
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Default On serious bilge pumping........

Here in Casco Bay there are many places where the general rules you
would rely on would be at odds with the "Returning" concept. A
committee could spend days without coming to a clear conclusion about
which side red should be on depending on whether they are thinking
from the mindset of big ships that use only the major channels, yachts
that use pleasure boat anchorages, etc.

By relying on buoy layout alone, do you want to bet your boat that you
will come always to the same conclusion as the long ago guy who laid
out the buoy system when it could have been a coin toss in some
situations?

Maybe it's different where you sail but, in many parts of Maine, the
buoys are primarily markers to help you locate yourself on the chart.
Even if you can figure out which side red is supposed to be on, just
keeping the right color on the proper side will WHAM!

--

Roger Long




  #35   Report Post  
Old December 2nd 05, 02:55 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Gary
 
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Default On serious bilge pumping........

otnmbrd wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message news:


The NS and SN of the two coasts is the direction of the flood tides in
general. The actual rule for buoys is "returning from seaward" which is
defacto the same as the flood tide. It has nothing to do with the NS/SN
stuff. Never mind the buoys, have a chart. Buoys drag, break free, are
hit by ships, get covered in bird****, and are frequently wrong. Always
look at the best scale, up-to-date chart for the area. If you are over 66
feet, it's the law.



Find the latest Bowditch and read Article 519 .......

otn




Bowditch is an instructional document. Read the IALA Buotage document.
There are many ways to learn buoys and remember them but there is
only one right way to place them.


  #36   Report Post  
Old December 2nd 05, 03:04 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Gary
 
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Default On serious bilge pumping........

Roger Long wrote:
Here in Casco Bay there are many places where the general rules you
would rely on would be at odds with the "Returning" concept. A
committee could spend days without coming to a clear conclusion about
which side red should be on depending on whether they are thinking
from the mindset of big ships that use only the major channels, yachts
that use pleasure boat anchorages, etc.

By relying on buoy layout alone, do you want to bet your boat that you
will come always to the same conclusion as the long ago guy who laid
out the buoy system when it could have been a coin toss in some
situations?

Maybe it's different where you sail but, in many parts of Maine, the
buoys are primarily markers to help you locate yourself on the chart.
Even if you can figure out which side red is supposed to be on, just
keeping the right color on the proper side will WHAM!

Well said.
  #37   Report Post  
Old December 2nd 05, 05:46 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
otnmbrd
 
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Default On serious bilge pumping........


"Gary" wrote in message news:

Bowditch is an instructional document. Read the IALA Buotage document.
There are many ways to learn buoys and remember them but there is only one
right way to place them.


I really don't know what point you are trying to argue.
The basic presumption of "from seaward", starts with the directional flow
of N-S (East Coast),
E-W (Gulf Coast), S-N (West coast). (US)
As you progress inshore from there, the system develops using the general
direction of flow from seaward and/or the
flood current.
The reason I didn't fully agree with the "you need a chart" was that when
approaching the coast from seaward you could and needed to, use this info to
determine what a buoy was for.
Once you moved inland, there would/could be a number of situations which can
lead to confusion (Woods Hole Passage, being one) because charts or no
charts, if you just looked at the buoys without following the bigger picture
of (N,S,E,W) , traffic flow, flood current, then you could easily misread
the intent of the buoys.
Having and using up to date charts is a must, but to make the most use of
them you need to also understand and know a number "basic" why's.
G If you think Bowditch is just some "instructional" document, you haven't
read/used Bowditch.

otn


  #38   Report Post  
Old December 2nd 05, 06:05 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Roger Long
 
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Default On serious bilge pumping........

"otnmbrd" wrote in

Having and using up to date charts is a must,


Well, we certainly agree. Sorry if I missed that point in your
earlier posts. I thought you were arguing that a person who
thoroughly understood the buoy system could get by without reference
to the charts. Plenty of them have left paint in Woods Hole passage.

I also agree that understanding the system behind the charts and buoys
is important.

--

Roger Long




  #39   Report Post  
Old December 2nd 05, 06:36 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
otnmbrd
 
Posts: n/a
Default On serious bilge pumping........

Comments interspersed:

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Here in Casco Bay there are many places where the general rules you would
rely on would be at odds with the "Returning" concept. A committee could
spend days without coming to a clear conclusion about which side red
should be on depending on whether they are thinking from the mindset of
big ships that use only the major channels, yachts that use pleasure boat
anchorages, etc.


What I am commenting on are not "general rules you rely on", but instead are
"general rules you begin with".


By relying on buoy layout alone, do you want to bet your boat that you
will come always to the same conclusion as the long ago guy who laid out
the buoy system when it could have been a coin toss in some situations?


I don't look at just one buoy without looking at it's meaning within the
particular area/system I am transiting.
If approaching an unfamiliar area, I will have looked at the "big picture"
to see why a particular buoy is where it is and how it relates to the
area/system it's concerned with (which may easily involve an apparent
departure from the initial basics).


Maybe it's different where you sail but, in many parts of Maine, the buoys
are primarily markers to help you locate yourself on the chart. Even if
you can figure out which side red is supposed to be on, just keeping the
right color on the proper side will WHAM!


Yes a buoy will locate your position, yes it will tell you where a danger
lies, yes it will tell you where the good water is....... as long as it's on
station (oops, guess that's not where I am). If you concentrate on a single
buoy without knowing how it relates to a particular system/area, then you
will frequently have reason for confusion.
There are many areas where the beginning basics may not and don't help you
out (they're a starting point). When they don't look at the approaches to
your area and/or what comes after in the scheme of the system you are
working (something you definitely need a chart for).
The N-S along the East Coast is for someone coming in from the Atlantic (and
Intracoastal) and not necessarily for someone in Penobscot Bay.
So we're sure it's understood ..... I am in no way suggesting you can or
should run without charts. My point being that there ARE some areas where
the basic "from seaward" rules do apply and need to be used and as you move
inland, you need to keep these basic rules in mind and be aware that you may
have trouble relating them to what you are now seeing. Do not focus on one
buoy, instead focus on the system and use all your info to help solve any
confusion.

otn


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Old December 2nd 05, 10:11 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Gary
 
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Default On serious bilge pumping........

Roger Long wrote:
"otnmbrd" wrote in


Having and using up to date charts is a must,



Well, we certainly agree. Sorry if I missed that point in your
earlier posts. I thought you were arguing that a person who
thoroughly understood the buoy system could get by without reference
to the charts. Plenty of them have left paint in Woods Hole passage.

I also agree that understanding the system behind the charts and buoys
is important.

We agree.


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