bowgus wrote:
My opinion ... for long term hydro (I'm in canada eh), wind, solar make
sense (usually lotsa wind, solar, and water around boats by the way). But
for the short/near term, it's looking like mainly natural gas ... e.g bld
has some units selling in japan, fcel units here and there. All I know is,
somebody better start building that hydrogen infrastructure (and finish it)
while we still have the fossil fuels to do the work.


The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're
already
short of?


There is no shortage of energy. There is a shortage of power
conditioning technology, like refineries, battery manufacturers, or
solar collectors.

There will be no actual oil shortage for at least 10 years. Longer,
if we each take personal responsibility for reducing energy wastage
and usage in a big way.

We are being weaned, ever so gradually, by the oil guys who want to
orchestrate the last 10 years of oil to be a pricing frenzy. They
are consolidating their garrotte on the refinery industry, now.

Someone should start up a company to build a modest refinery on a
big old slow ship with tanker hose connections, perhaps an obsolete
single skinned tanker? You could anchor it anywhere, and empty it if
a storm threatened. A refinery is just a big old still, after all.
You can make a moonshine still from an old coffee maker.


Think of hydrogen as part of a battery system, a refillable battery,
if you will. The hydrogen gets "charged" at a hilly wind or desert
sun site, and tanked or pipelined to users, who "discharge" it to
create a substitute for transpiration, where we cut down trees to
build this city.

It's not rocket psciance, it's rock and roll.

If Vegas's sewers went to a solar lagoon, the water extracted by
Zenon (TM) Zeaweed (TM) could provide hydrogen without having to
pipe in special water, or poison the ditch to the sea. Is there a
runoff from Vegas, a river, or something? Some of the hydrogen
produced by solar power and electrolysis and stored under a tarp
could even be used to provide peak load electricity in a turbine or
internal combustion super clean "steam" engine, bonus exhaust: pure
water. The dried crap, sterilized by the sun, would make good
odourless fertilizer for corn to make corny diesel, gasahol, and
livestock feed, for the rabbits or goats under the sunshade solar
collectors.

Trangenic goats can be used to produce very fancy medical drug
feedstock, and would never escape death valley, whatever, unaided.

Serendipity? Problems, or solutions? It's really all in our attitude.

We want lotsa cheap durable solar shingles, and the right to sell
excess power back to the hydro company, even at 15 percent
efficiency, or windmills where we can't hear them and where there
are no birds or bats!

Low pressure H2 pipelines would not depress permafrost, and could
even float on cables above the ground or river crossing using low
pressure anti static plastic pipes, greenhouse ventilation tubes
actually. Such a pipeline could be unreeled from a helicopter, and
anchored in rock, filling with gas as it is installed in the air.
Crews could use very simple straight clamps to essentially close the
low pressure line wherever needed. Occasional ground valves could
contain mishaps, like Caribou antler entanglements.

We need lightweight, flexible solar cells to print on the tops of
the gas bags, along with the telemetered pressure gauges, like the
ones they are going to print on solar powered electro-deflective-gel
fleshed orthinopter high altitude balloon launched surveillance
robot birds, like they demo'd on Discovery last week. Ain't war
technology great?

What do you think they use to lift big balloons, H2? Helium? Don't
make me laugh! Who do you think sabotaged the Hindenburg, and why?
Who promotes expensive, inefficient helium to preserve their old
technology? Yup, shipping magnates, the oil guys, the heavy
pipeline guys, and wildcat drillers.

That is the future, but don't look to the oil guys to put themselves
out of business real soon, yet.

I said it about tungsten, of which I have a now near worthless
collection recycled from incandescent bulbs over the years, and I
optimistically say it about oil, Like some one said about buggy
whips. Horses might still be popular if it wasn't for the horse muck.

Oil is becoming obsolete, just like coal did. There are energy wars
being conducted internally, by rich traitors and poor
scientist-enterprenuer heroes.

Set the army engineers on it, if you want to see a peace dividend.
Remember that quaint term "Peace Dividend?"

There is lots more coal in the ground, we just don't need it right
now, because oil is easier and more profitable.

There is no shortage of energy, only of imagination.

Terry K


Iceland is blessed with practically unlimited geothermal energy. So they
can produce hydrogen for their own use as well as export.

Matt O.

Good read. Thanks!

-Greg


"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
...
bowgus wrote:
My opinion ... for long term hydro (I'm in canada eh), wind, solar make
sense (usually lotsa wind, solar, and water around boats by the way).
But
for the short/near term, it's looking like mainly natural gas ... e.g
bld
has some units selling in japan, fcel units here and there. All I know
is,
somebody better start building that hydrogen infrastructure (and finish
it)
while we still have the fossil fuels to do the work.


The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're
already
short of?


There is no shortage of energy. There is a shortage of power
conditioning technology, like refineries, battery manufacturers, or
solar collectors.

There will be no actual oil shortage for at least 10 years. Longer,
if we each take personal responsibility for reducing energy wastage
and usage in a big way.

We are being weaned, ever so gradually, by the oil guys who want to
orchestrate the last 10 years of oil to be a pricing frenzy. They
are consolidating their garrotte on the refinery industry, now.

Someone should start up a company to build a modest refinery on a
big old slow ship with tanker hose connections, perhaps an obsolete
single skinned tanker? You could anchor it anywhere, and empty it if
a storm threatened. A refinery is just a big old still, after all.
You can make a moonshine still from an old coffee maker.


Think of hydrogen as part of a battery system, a refillable battery,
if you will. The hydrogen gets "charged" at a hilly wind or desert
sun site, and tanked or pipelined to users, who "discharge" it to
create a substitute for transpiration, where we cut down trees to
build this city.

It's not rocket psciance, it's rock and roll.

If Vegas's sewers went to a solar lagoon, the water extracted by
Zenon (TM) Zeaweed (TM) could provide hydrogen without having to
pipe in special water, or poison the ditch to the sea. Is there a
runoff from Vegas, a river, or something? Some of the hydrogen
produced by solar power and electrolysis and stored under a tarp
could even be used to provide peak load electricity in a turbine or
internal combustion super clean "steam" engine, bonus exhaust: pure
water. The dried crap, sterilized by the sun, would make good
odourless fertilizer for corn to make corny diesel, gasahol, and
livestock feed, for the rabbits or goats under the sunshade solar
collectors.

Trangenic goats can be used to produce very fancy medical drug
feedstock, and would never escape death valley, whatever, unaided.

Serendipity? Problems, or solutions? It's really all in our attitude.

We want lotsa cheap durable solar shingles, and the right to sell
excess power back to the hydro company, even at 15 percent
efficiency, or windmills where we can't hear them and where there
are no birds or bats!

Low pressure H2 pipelines would not depress permafrost, and could
even float on cables above the ground or river crossing using low
pressure anti static plastic pipes, greenhouse ventilation tubes
actually. Such a pipeline could be unreeled from a helicopter, and
anchored in rock, filling with gas as it is installed in the air.
Crews could use very simple straight clamps to essentially close the
low pressure line wherever needed. Occasional ground valves could
contain mishaps, like Caribou antler entanglements.

We need lightweight, flexible solar cells to print on the tops of
the gas bags, along with the telemetered pressure gauges, like the
ones they are going to print on solar powered electro-deflective-gel
fleshed orthinopter high altitude balloon launched surveillance
robot birds, like they demo'd on Discovery last week. Ain't war
technology great?

What do you think they use to lift big balloons, H2? Helium? Don't
make me laugh! Who do you think sabotaged the Hindenburg, and why?
Who promotes expensive, inefficient helium to preserve their old
technology? Yup, shipping magnates, the oil guys, the heavy
pipeline guys, and wildcat drillers.

That is the future, but don't look to the oil guys to put themselves
out of business real soon, yet.

I said it about tungsten, of which I have a now near worthless
collection recycled from incandescent bulbs over the years, and I
optimistically say it about oil, Like some one said about buggy
whips. Horses might still be popular if it wasn't for the horse muck.

Oil is becoming obsolete, just like coal did. There are energy wars
being conducted internally, by rich traitors and poor
scientist-enterprenuer heroes.

Set the army engineers on it, if you want to see a peace dividend.
Remember that quaint term "Peace Dividend?"

There is lots more coal in the ground, we just don't need it right
now, because oil is easier and more profitable.

There is no shortage of energy, only of imagination.

Terry K


Iceland is blessed with practically unlimited geothermal energy. So
they
can produce hydrogen for their own use as well as export.

Matt O.

Good one Terry!
When I worked at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station I was amazed that the
"Florida Solar Energy Center" was a 1/2 acre lot with a chain link fence and
a building that couldn't have been more than 2,000 square feet. The 1/2 acre
also enclosed the parking lot! If you're familiar with it CCAFS, it borders
the South perimeter of Kennedy Space Center and combined, the together are
about 30 miles long.
There are SO many unused pads and facilities with an incredible amount of
open land around them.
It wasn't too hard to figure out why the Solar people were jammed into the
1/2 acre with not even enough room to walk between the ground mounted solar
panels.
I guess Washington can't squash development of alternative energy, but they
can make it hard to do!
The facility has since moved but still only has a staff of 15. Doesn't
really sound as if we are very serious does it?
MMC

"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
...
bowgus wrote:
My opinion ... for long term hydro (I'm in canada eh), wind, solar make
sense (usually lotsa wind, solar, and water around boats by the way).
But
for the short/near term, it's looking like mainly natural gas ... e.g
bld
has some units selling in japan, fcel units here and there. All I know
is,
somebody better start building that hydrogen infrastructure (and finish
it)
while we still have the fossil fuels to do the work.


The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're
already
short of?


There is no shortage of energy. There is a shortage of power
conditioning technology, like refineries, battery manufacturers, or
solar collectors.

There will be no actual oil shortage for at least 10 years. Longer,
if we each take personal responsibility for reducing energy wastage
and usage in a big way.

We are being weaned, ever so gradually, by the oil guys who want to
orchestrate the last 10 years of oil to be a pricing frenzy. They
are consolidating their garrotte on the refinery industry, now.

Someone should start up a company to build a modest refinery on a
big old slow ship with tanker hose connections, perhaps an obsolete
single skinned tanker? You could anchor it anywhere, and empty it if
a storm threatened. A refinery is just a big old still, after all.
You can make a moonshine still from an old coffee maker.


Think of hydrogen as part of a battery system, a refillable battery,
if you will. The hydrogen gets "charged" at a hilly wind or desert
sun site, and tanked or pipelined to users, who "discharge" it to
create a substitute for transpiration, where we cut down trees to
build this city.

It's not rocket psciance, it's rock and roll.

If Vegas's sewers went to a solar lagoon, the water extracted by
Zenon (TM) Zeaweed (TM) could provide hydrogen without having to
pipe in special water, or poison the ditch to the sea. Is there a
runoff from Vegas, a river, or something? Some of the hydrogen
produced by solar power and electrolysis and stored under a tarp
could even be used to provide peak load electricity in a turbine or
internal combustion super clean "steam" engine, bonus exhaust: pure
water. The dried crap, sterilized by the sun, would make good
odourless fertilizer for corn to make corny diesel, gasahol, and
livestock feed, for the rabbits or goats under the sunshade solar
collectors.

Trangenic goats can be used to produce very fancy medical drug
feedstock, and would never escape death valley, whatever, unaided.

Serendipity? Problems, or solutions? It's really all in our attitude.

We want lotsa cheap durable solar shingles, and the right to sell
excess power back to the hydro company, even at 15 percent
efficiency, or windmills where we can't hear them and where there
are no birds or bats!

Low pressure H2 pipelines would not depress permafrost, and could
even float on cables above the ground or river crossing using low
pressure anti static plastic pipes, greenhouse ventilation tubes
actually. Such a pipeline could be unreeled from a helicopter, and
anchored in rock, filling with gas as it is installed in the air.
Crews could use very simple straight clamps to essentially close the
low pressure line wherever needed. Occasional ground valves could
contain mishaps, like Caribou antler entanglements.

We need lightweight, flexible solar cells to print on the tops of
the gas bags, along with the telemetered pressure gauges, like the
ones they are going to print on solar powered electro-deflective-gel
fleshed orthinopter high altitude balloon launched surveillance
robot birds, like they demo'd on Discovery last week. Ain't war
technology great?

What do you think they use to lift big balloons, H2? Helium? Don't
make me laugh! Who do you think sabotaged the Hindenburg, and why?
Who promotes expensive, inefficient helium to preserve their old
technology? Yup, shipping magnates, the oil guys, the heavy
pipeline guys, and wildcat drillers.

That is the future, but don't look to the oil guys to put themselves
out of business real soon, yet.

I said it about tungsten, of which I have a now near worthless
collection recycled from incandescent bulbs over the years, and I
optimistically say it about oil, Like some one said about buggy
whips. Horses might still be popular if it wasn't for the horse muck.

Oil is becoming obsolete, just like coal did. There are energy wars
being conducted internally, by rich traitors and poor
scientist-enterprenuer heroes.

Set the army engineers on it, if you want to see a peace dividend.
Remember that quaint term "Peace Dividend?"

There is lots more coal in the ground, we just don't need it right
now, because oil is easier and more profitable.

There is no shortage of energy, only of imagination.

Terry K


Iceland is blessed with practically unlimited geothermal energy. So
they
can produce hydrogen for their own use as well as export.

Matt O.

To clarify ... hydro, wind, solar energy could be used to create the
hydrogen. And it's looking like natural gas, swamp gas, you name it may be
used as well without the combustion side effects associated with getting
energy from gas.

The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're already
short of?

OK, a little chemical reality here...

First, if creating the electricity to electrolyze water by "hydro,
wind,solar energy" were economical today, then it would also be true
that creating electricity for ANY use (including water electrolysis)
would be economical today. In the US, pretty much all the economical
hydro power has been tapped already (or is unavailable for other
reasons, eg. damming up the Colorado in the Grand Canyon is
unacceptable), and wind and solar are still considerably more expensive
than (depending on the location) burning natural gas, oil or coal to
make electricity. As soon as it becomes economically feasible to tear
down the coal-, oil- or gas-burning power plants and replace them with
windmills and/or solar cells, it will be done.

Second, obtaining hydrogen from "natural gas, swamp gas, you name it" is
already the current primary production methodology. The end product is
CO2, which comes from the carbon in the hydroCARBON source (exactly the
same amount of CO2 is produced as when the hydrocarbon is burned in a
power plant), and hydrogen. And of course, the amount of energy
contained in the product hydrogen is considerably less than what was
contained in the feed hydrocarbon. And no electricity is produced.


dons asbestos suit, getting ready for flame war

bob



bowgus wrote:
To clarify ... hydro, wind, solar energy could be used to create the
hydrogen. And it's looking like natural gas, swamp gas, you name it may be
used as well without the combustion side effects associated with getting
energy from gas.


The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're already
short of?

There's still a lot of problems to be overcome with using hydrogen, or swamp
gas, or biogas... or any other non-petroleum based fuel... in vehicles.

First and foremost, there's the energy density problem. All of those gases
have far less energy content per unit volume than any petroleum product.
Ergo, it takes lots of gas to create the same horsepower. Where are you
gonna put all that gas in a vehicle? You have to compress it and put it
into some kind of storage tank. Compressing anything takes more energy.
How are you going to create the hydrogen or other gas? You don't just
gather it up. It has to be manufactured, which takes more energy. Some
methods allow you to use passive energy such as solar, but take a long time
to generate the quantities required to be useful. Other methods require
energy input from... petroleum fuels... to create the "clean" gas. Ack.

Second, with hydrogen there is a huge storage issue. Hydrogen molecules are
tiny, the tiniest molecules around. They're even smaller than helium
molecules. Ever watch a helium balloon deflate over days? It leaks THROUGH
the balloon, not out the knot. Same thing would happen to a pressurized
hydrogen storage tank. Gradually the molecules would seep out and the tank
would empty. Not good. So, people are working on storage techniques using
metal hydrides to bind with the hydrogen, then release it upon demand.
Unfortunately, the "release" part requires more energy input.

Third, let's assume that we're talking about using a fuel cell approach to
convert hydrogen into energy. Fuel cells produce electricity. This means
electrical motors for a boat, and possibly larger battery banks. Ever
priced 100hp electric motors, not to mention 300hp ones? Wonder what the
power plant for a trawler consisting of a 200kW fuel cell, a bank of
batteries, two 100Hp motors, the associated electronic controllers, and the
huge inverter(s) for AC consumption onboard might cost? Ack. How about
what it would weigh?

Fourth, let's assume that we're not generating our own hydrogen or biogas or
swamp gas on our boats. How long do you think it will be before every
marina and fuel dock in cruising waters has a hose marked "hydrogen"? I
think the longterm answer will be some sort of sequential machine: hydrogen
generator feeds fuel cells which feed electric motors, or something. You'll
make your own hydrogen (or swamp gas, or ...) on the fly using sea water,
sunlight, and Special Sauce, then feed the gas you produce right into the
"engine". Hopefully, the "Special Sauce" will be cheap and available.

If I ever get into the cruising game, and I intend to - thus I'm lurking in
groups such as these - I'll try to employ alternative fuels. I just don't
think affordable diesel is going to last all that long into the future.
But, per my research, practical alternative fuels are ways away. Don't
believe me? Go to some of the web sites that promise such wondrous
technology. See how many have a commercial, viable product. Folks like to
talk about what can be done, but there are a LOT of technological and
economic hurdles yet to overcome before these alternative fuels are a viable
reality.



"bowgus" wrote in message
...
To clarify ... hydro, wind, solar energy could be used to create the
hydrogen. And it's looking like natural gas, swamp gas, you name it may be
used as well without the combustion side effects associated with getting
energy from gas.

The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're
already
short of?

MMC wrote:

Good one Terry!
When I worked at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station I was amazed that the
"Florida Solar Energy Center" was a 1/2 acre lot with a chain link fence and
a building that couldn't have been more than 2,000 square feet. The 1/2 acre
also enclosed the parking lot! If you're familiar with it CCAFS, it borders
the South perimeter of Kennedy Space Center and combined, the together are
about 30 miles long.
There are SO many unused pads and facilities with an incredible amount of
open land around them.
It wasn't too hard to figure out why the Solar people were jammed into the
1/2 acre with not even enough room to walk between the ground mounted solar
panels.
I guess Washington can't squash development of alternative energy, but they
can make it hard to do!
The facility has since moved but still only has a staff of 15. Doesn't
really sound as if we are very serious does it?
MMC

This IS bloody serious. I believe it is the tip of an iceburg, at
the root of which is an avaricious oil industry, protecting it's
share of the energy market worth trillions by means fair and foul,
openly and subtley.

Organisations of every sort are bait for the ambitious, good hearted
and bad. I think the energy barons have only their own interest at
heart, and can purchase whatever scruples they may lack.

What ever happenned to fusion power research, and why can we not
purchase light, simple, efficient cars about as dangerous as a
motorcycle? I want an efficient reversed tricycle commuter with one
driving / normal regenerating braking wheel at the rear, for about
100 km, at highway speeds of about 100kph, with modest
accelleration, and wouln't mind recharging it at home from 110vac.

Two old bikes welded togeter, two lawn chairs side by side, canvas
covers, and a regenerating brake wheel motor like used on the
japanese / french electric would do me. Search the net for eliica.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/preview...htwheeler.html

Do you really think some oil merchant is gonna give me a startup
loan, or lend me a welder?

I figure such a beast could go for well under 10K. Wanna bet they
come out at about 29K?

Oil is obsolescent. The oil thinkers are chewing an old buggy whip.
The reason GM is losing market is 'cause they don't offer what car
buyers want. They should spend less on ads and more on market
research. The people still in the market for a car are the ones who
can't afford a huge SUV.

Terry K




"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
...

bowgus wrote:

My opinion ... for long term hydro (I'm in canada eh), wind, solar make
sense (usually lotsa wind, solar, and water around boats by the way).

But

for the short/near term, it's looking like mainly natural gas ... e.g

bld

has some units selling in japan, fcel units here and there. All I know

is,

somebody better start building that hydrogen infrastructure (and finish

it)

while we still have the fossil fuels to do the work.


The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're
already
short of?



There is no shortage of energy. There is a shortage of power
conditioning technology, like refineries, battery manufacturers, or
solar collectors.

There will be no actual oil shortage for at least 10 years. Longer,
if we each take personal responsibility for reducing energy wastage
and usage in a big way.

We are being weaned, ever so gradually, by the oil guys who want to
orchestrate the last 10 years of oil to be a pricing frenzy. They
are consolidating their garrotte on the refinery industry, now.

Someone should start up a company to build a modest refinery on a
big old slow ship with tanker hose connections, perhaps an obsolete
single skinned tanker? You could anchor it anywhere, and empty it if
a storm threatened. A refinery is just a big old still, after all.
You can make a moonshine still from an old coffee maker.


Think of hydrogen as part of a battery system, a refillable battery,
if you will. The hydrogen gets "charged" at a hilly wind or desert
sun site, and tanked or pipelined to users, who "discharge" it to
create a substitute for transpiration, where we cut down trees to
build this city.

It's not rocket psciance, it's rock and roll.

If Vegas's sewers went to a solar lagoon, the water extracted by
Zenon (TM) Zeaweed (TM) could provide hydrogen without having to
pipe in special water, or poison the ditch to the sea. Is there a
runoff from Vegas, a river, or something? Some of the hydrogen
produced by solar power and electrolysis and stored under a tarp
could even be used to provide peak load electricity in a turbine or
internal combustion super clean "steam" engine, bonus exhaust: pure
water. The dried crap, sterilized by the sun, would make good
odourless fertilizer for corn to make corny diesel, gasahol, and
livestock feed, for the rabbits or goats under the sunshade solar
collectors.

Trangenic goats can be used to produce very fancy medical drug
feedstock, and would never escape death valley, whatever, unaided.

Serendipity? Problems, or solutions? It's really all in our attitude.

We want lotsa cheap durable solar shingles, and the right to sell
excess power back to the hydro company, even at 15 percent
efficiency, or windmills where we can't hear them and where there
are no birds or bats!

Low pressure H2 pipelines would not depress permafrost, and could
even float on cables above the ground or river crossing using low
pressure anti static plastic pipes, greenhouse ventilation tubes
actually. Such a pipeline could be unreeled from a helicopter, and
anchored in rock, filling with gas as it is installed in the air.
Crews could use very simple straight clamps to essentially close the
low pressure line wherever needed. Occasional ground valves could
contain mishaps, like Caribou antler entanglements.

We need lightweight, flexible solar cells to print on the tops of
the gas bags, along with the telemetered pressure gauges, like the
ones they are going to print on solar powered electro-deflective-gel
fleshed orthinopter high altitude balloon launched surveillance
robot birds, like they demo'd on Discovery last week. Ain't war
technology great?

What do you think they use to lift big balloons, H2? Helium? Don't
make me laugh! Who do you think sabotaged the Hindenburg, and why?
Who promotes expensive, inefficient helium to preserve their old
technology? Yup, shipping magnates, the oil guys, the heavy
pipeline guys, and wildcat drillers.

That is the future, but don't look to the oil guys to put themselves
out of business real soon, yet.

I said it about tungsten, of which I have a now near worthless
collection recycled from incandescent bulbs over the years, and I
optimistically say it about oil, Like some one said about buggy
whips. Horses might still be popular if it wasn't for the horse muck.

Oil is becoming obsolete, just like coal did. There are energy wars
being conducted internally, by rich traitors and poor
scientist-enterprenuer heroes.

Set the army engineers on it, if you want to see a peace dividend.
Remember that quaint term "Peace Dividend?"

There is lots more coal in the ground, we just don't need it right
now, because oil is easier and more profitable.

There is no shortage of energy, only of imagination.

Terry K


Iceland is blessed with practically unlimited geothermal energy. So

they

can produce hydrogen for their own use as well as export.

Matt O.

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:25:10 -0400, Terry Spragg wrote:
Oil is obsolescent. The oil thinkers are chewing an old buggy whip.
The reason GM is losing market is 'cause they don't offer what car
buyers want. They should spend less on ads and more on market
research. The people still in the market for a car are the ones who
can't afford a huge SUV.

why should they bother to retool and offer what people want when its
more profitable to change what people want with advertising and lobbying,
hm?

I would say that the government's true purpose is public protection - they
protect us from nasty foreign powers (via the military) but they seem to
be strangely quiet on protecting us from nasty corporations in our midst..

--
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=irelan...244,0.0822&t=k

Terry Spragg wrote:
MMC wrote:

Good one Terry!
When I worked at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station I was amazed that the
"Florida Solar Energy Center" was a 1/2 acre lot with a chain link
fence and
a building that couldn't have been more than 2,000 square feet. The
1/2 acre
also enclosed the parking lot! If you're familiar with it CCAFS, it
borders
the South perimeter of Kennedy Space Center and combined, the together
are
about 30 miles long.
There are SO many unused pads and facilities with an incredible amount of
open land around them.
It wasn't too hard to figure out why the Solar people were jammed into
the
1/2 acre with not even enough room to walk between the ground mounted
solar
panels.
I guess Washington can't squash development of alternative energy, but
they
can make it hard to do!
The facility has since moved but still only has a staff of 15. Doesn't
really sound as if we are very serious does it?
MMC


This IS bloody serious. I believe it is the tip of an iceburg, at the
root of which is an avaricious oil industry, protecting it's share of
the energy market worth trillions by means fair and foul, openly and
subtley.

Organisations of every sort are bait for the ambitious, good hearted and
bad. I think the energy barons have only their own interest at heart,
and can purchase whatever scruples they may lack.

What ever happenned to fusion power research, and why can we not
purchase light, simple, efficient cars about as dangerous as a
motorcycle? I want an efficient reversed tricycle commuter with one
driving / normal regenerating braking wheel at the rear, for about 100
km, at highway speeds of about 100kph, with modest accelleration, and
wouln't mind recharging it at home from 110vac.

Two old bikes welded togeter, two lawn chairs side by side, canvas
covers, and a regenerating brake wheel motor like used on the japanese /
french electric would do me. Search the net for eliica.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/preview...htwheeler.html

Do you really think some oil merchant is gonna give me a startup loan,
or lend me a welder?

I figure such a beast could go for well under 10K. Wanna bet they come
out at about 29K?

Oil is obsolescent. The oil thinkers are chewing an old buggy whip. The
reason GM is losing market is 'cause they don't offer what car buyers
want. They should spend less on ads and more on market research. The
people still in the market for a car are the ones who can't afford a
huge SUV.

Terry K




"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
...

bowgus wrote:

My opinion ... for long term hydro (I'm in canada eh), wind, solar make
sense (usually lotsa wind, solar, and water around boats by the way).


But

for the short/near term, it's looking like mainly natural gas ... e.g


bld

has some units selling in japan, fcel units here and there. All I know


is,

somebody better start building that hydrogen infrastructure (and finish


it)

while we still have the fossil fuels to do the work.


The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're
already
short of?




There is no shortage of energy. There is a shortage of power
conditioning technology, like refineries, battery manufacturers, or
solar collectors.

There will be no actual oil shortage for at least 10 years. Longer,
if we each take personal responsibility for reducing energy wastage
and usage in a big way.

We are being weaned, ever so gradually, by the oil guys who want to
orchestrate the last 10 years of oil to be a pricing frenzy. They
are consolidating their garrotte on the refinery industry, now.

Someone should start up a company to build a modest refinery on a
big old slow ship with tanker hose connections, perhaps an obsolete
single skinned tanker? You could anchor it anywhere, and empty it if
a storm threatened. A refinery is just a big old still, after all.
You can make a moonshine still from an old coffee maker.


Think of hydrogen as part of a battery system, a refillable battery,
if you will. The hydrogen gets "charged" at a hilly wind or desert
sun site, and tanked or pipelined to users, who "discharge" it to
create a substitute for transpiration, where we cut down trees to
build this city.

It's not rocket psciance, it's rock and roll.

If Vegas's sewers went to a solar lagoon, the water extracted by
Zenon (TM) Zeaweed (TM) could provide hydrogen without having to
pipe in special water, or poison the ditch to the sea. Is there a
runoff from Vegas, a river, or something? Some of the hydrogen
produced by solar power and electrolysis and stored under a tarp
could even be used to provide peak load electricity in a turbine or
internal combustion super clean "steam" engine, bonus exhaust: pure
water. The dried crap, sterilized by the sun, would make good
odourless fertilizer for corn to make corny diesel, gasahol, and
livestock feed, for the rabbits or goats under the sunshade solar
collectors.

Trangenic goats can be used to produce very fancy medical drug
feedstock, and would never escape death valley, whatever, unaided.

Serendipity? Problems, or solutions? It's really all in our attitude.

We want lotsa cheap durable solar shingles, and the right to sell
excess power back to the hydro company, even at 15 percent
efficiency, or windmills where we can't hear them and where there
are no birds or bats!

Low pressure H2 pipelines would not depress permafrost, and could
even float on cables above the ground or river crossing using low
pressure anti static plastic pipes, greenhouse ventilation tubes
actually. Such a pipeline could be unreeled from a helicopter, and
anchored in rock, filling with gas as it is installed in the air.
Crews could use very simple straight clamps to essentially close the
low pressure line wherever needed. Occasional ground valves could
contain mishaps, like Caribou antler entanglements.

We need lightweight, flexible solar cells to print on the tops of
the gas bags, along with the telemetered pressure gauges, like the
ones they are going to print on solar powered electro-deflective-gel
fleshed orthinopter high altitude balloon launched surveillance
robot birds, like they demo'd on Discovery last week. Ain't war
technology great?

What do you think they use to lift big balloons, H2? Helium? Don't
make me laugh! Who do you think sabotaged the Hindenburg, and why?
Who promotes expensive, inefficient helium to preserve their old
technology? Yup, shipping magnates, the oil guys, the heavy
pipeline guys, and wildcat drillers.

That is the future, but don't look to the oil guys to put themselves
out of business real soon, yet.

I said it about tungsten, of which I have a now near worthless
collection recycled from incandescent bulbs over the years, and I
optimistically say it about oil, Like some one said about buggy
whips. Horses might still be popular if it wasn't for the horse muck.

Oil is becoming obsolete, just like coal did. There are energy wars
being conducted internally, by rich traitors and poor
scientist-enterprenuer heroes.

Set the army engineers on it, if you want to see a peace dividend.
Remember that quaint term "Peace Dividend?"

There is lots more coal in the ground, we just don't need it right
now, because oil is easier and more profitable.

There is no shortage of energy, only of imagination.

Terry K


Iceland is blessed with practically unlimited geothermal energy. So


they

can produce hydrogen for their own use as well as export.

Matt O.





Go ahead and build it, and then see if you can get it thru the NTSB
safety requirements... By the time it'll pass the NTSB (and all the
other alphabet soup) requirements, it'll look just like what you can
already buy...

Forget about hydrogen fuel. It is a non-starter, especially in a mobile
installation. Rockets don't count.