Welcome back to the sailing corner of usenet.

I'd really like to hear about your real experiences with your new
boat. Its fun to consider the hypothetical virtues of a boat, but
what really counts is how they are used.

Jim Cate wrote:
....

As to whether the Mac is "unsinkable," probably not, but it's pretty
darned hard to sink one. - The skipper of the one reported in the news
that capsized was drunk, and the boat was overloaded and didn't have the
water ballast. (Note that his attorney didn't succeed in his lawsuit
against MacGregor. )

You can argue that it was not handled well in this case, but the fact
that it could happen at all, regardless of the circumstances, does not
bode well for a trans-Atlantic.

On the other hand, if the hull is compromised on a
conventional keel boat, or if it experiences a severe knockdown, the
keel can pull it to the bottom fairly quickly.

Actually, its fairly easy to add flotation to a small boat. But
here's the question: if you were in a Mac 26 in a North Atlantic Gale,
and the boat got rolled (as it almost certainly would) and lost its
rig, which was now pounding into the hull, and the hull started to
leak, would you be trusting your life to a few blocks of foam, or
would you be headed to the liferaft?

....


In any event, regarding safety, it's obviously true that the weighted
keel on a conventional boat can pull it to the bottom in a few minutes
if the hull is compromised or the boat is rolled.

Lots of boats have been rolled without sinking. In fact, this is one
of the basic scenarios that must be considered by any long distance
cruiser. Just assuming the boat will go down in a few minutes is not
the solution most cruisers have. Even a serious hole can often be
dealt with, especially if a boat is designed and built with this in
mind.

Jeff wrote:

Welcome back to the sailing corner of usenet.

I'd really like to hear about your real experiences with your new
boat. Its fun to consider the hypothetical virtues of a boat, but
what really counts is how they are used.


Jim Cate wrote:

..

As to whether the Mac is "unsinkable," probably not, but it's pretty
darned hard to sink one. - The skipper of the one reported in the
news that capsized was drunk, and the boat was overloaded and didn't
have the water ballast. (Note that his attorney didn't succeed in his
lawsuit against MacGregor. )


You can argue that it was not handled well in this case, but the fact
that it could happen at all, regardless of the circumstances, does not
bode well for a trans-Atlantic.


Agreed. I would certainly hope that anyone taking a Mac, or any other
boat, offshore would have a full understanding of the boats
characteristics and safety requirements. - If he doesn't, he
shouldn't leave the dock. Again, I don't think the Mac is suited for
any extended ocean crossing.


On the other hand, if the hull is compromised on a conventional keel
boat, or if it experiences a severe knockdown, the keel can pull it
to the bottom fairly quickly.


Actually, its fairly easy to add flotation to a small boat. But
here's the question: if you were in a Mac 26 in a North Atlantic Gale,
and the boat got rolled (as it almost certainly would) and lost its
rig, which was now pounding into the hull, and the hull started to
leak, would you be trusting your life to a few blocks of foam, or
would you be headed to the liferaft?


As stated in my note, I personally would never attempt a crossing in a
Mac. On the other hand, I disagree with the statement that the Mac is a
"pretend" sailboat. I'm not suggesting that the Mac has all the
qualities of a large blue water boat. - I'm just suggesting that there
should be a little more balance in the discussion, and a little less
dogmatism and rancor. As I also stated, I don't claim that the Mac is
as fast under sail as a conventional keel boat with longer waterline.
Still, they are a lot of fun to sail, and they entail advantages not
found in conventional boats.

.


In any event, regarding safety, it's obviously true that the weighted
keel on a conventional boat can pull it to the bottom in a few
minutes if the hull is compromised or the boat is rolled.


Lots of boats have been rolled without sinking. In fact, this is one
of the basic scenarios that must be considered by any long distance
cruiser. Just assuming the boat will go down in a few minutes is not
the solution most cruisers have. Even a serious hole can often be
dealt with, especially if a boat is designed and built with this in
mind.


Nevertheless, if the hull of a conventional boat is compromised, the
keel can quickly pull the boat to the bottom. Accounts of such incidents
tell of skipper and crew not even having time to collect their gear or
send an SOS. - It's highly unlikely that that would be the case on a Mac.

Jim

Anyone who takes a Mac offshore should be committed (and I don't mean
devoted).

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

Agreed. I would certainly hope that anyone taking a Mac,

Come on. Don't be so hard on yourself!

As stated in my note, I personally would never attempt a crossing in a
Mac.

It's a joke. Pretend means you know better. You are just too funny!

On the other hand, I disagree with the statement that the Mac is a
"pretend" sailboat. I'm not suggesting that the Mac has all the qualities
of a large blue water boat. - I'm just suggesting that there should be a
little more balance in the discussion, and a little less dogmatism and
rancor. As I also stated, I don't claim that the Mac is as fast under
sail as a conventional keel boat with longer waterline. Still, they are a
lot of fun to sail, and they entail advantages not found in conventional
boats.

Jeff wrote:
...
Actually, its fairly easy to add flotation to a small boat.
...

Do you know of any larger sailboat (over 40') with built-in solid
floatation ? Doesn't it make even more sense to have this in larger
boats (costing hundreds of thousands of dollars) than in a $20,000
boat which doesn't carry much of our belongings ?

Even if we're careful and only sail in good weather, there's always
a possibility of a collision such as when somebody else doesn't have
their lights on.

wrote:
Jeff wrote:
...
Actually, its fairly easy to add flotation to a small boat.
...

Do you know of any larger sailboat (over 40') with built-in solid
floatation ?

Most catamarans have enough buoyancy to be considered unsinkable.
Mine has 6 "flotation chambers" scattered around the hull. Plus the
geometry means that only only hull is likely to be breached. There
are cases of cats sailed back to the dock with large holes in one hull
and the water is only up to the floorboards.

In addition, many large boats have collision bulkheads that mean that
a large hole in one part of the boat might not take it down.

Or, you could get an Etap:
http://www.etapyachting.com/index.cf...ng&Part=Yachts

Doesn't it make even more sense to have this in larger
boats (costing hundreds of thousands of dollars) than in a $20,000
boat which doesn't carry much of our belongings ?

Hmmm. I might think the lives of those in small boats are worth as
much as those in large boats.

Small boats need flotation more than large because they have so much
less reserve buoyancy. A leak that would take hours to sink a large
boat, and might even be controlled by large pumps, could sink a small
boat in minutes.


Even if we're careful and only sail in good weather, there's always
a possibility of a collision such as when somebody else doesn't have
their lights on.

There are lots of possibilities out there. But most sinkings happen
at the dock.

Jeff wrote:
Actually, its fairly easy to add flotation to a small boat.


wrote:
Do you know of any larger sailboat (over 40') with built-in solid
floatation ?

Yep.
Sadler & Etap all have full positive flotation.

Actually, I think it would be a good project to add positive flotation
to any cruising boat that ventures out into big water. Some care should
be taken with the volume distribution , so that stability is
mainatained, as well as ensuring sufficient volume. You could utilize
the interior angles & odd nooks so as to not lose too much stowage.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

wrote:

Do you know of any larger sailboat (over 40') with built-in solid
floatation ? Doesn't it make even more sense to have this in larger
boats (costing hundreds of thousands of dollars) than in a $20,000
boat which doesn't carry much of our belongings ?

Many sailboat hulls have been made from Airex, etc.. You will find that
Tom Fexus and others have designed several 60'+ trawlers offering full
flotation using such closed cell material.

--
Skipper

wrote:
Jeff wrote:

...
Actually, its fairly easy to add flotation to a small boat.
...


Do you know of any larger sailboat (over 40') with built-in solid
floatation ? Doesn't it make even more sense to have this in larger
boats (costing hundreds of thousands of dollars) than in a $20,000
boat which doesn't carry much of our belongings ?

Even if we're careful and only sail in good weather, there's always
a possibility of a collision such as when somebody else doesn't have
their lights on.
Larger boats have watertight compartments and collision bulkheads which
really do the same thing as foam.

Crossing the Atlantic in a MacGregor 26 is not impossible or improbable.
Somebody will do it someday. It is just gonna take a lot of skill and
luck. Some amazing journeys have been done in very small seemingly
uncapable boats but the element of luck is unpredictable.

How lucky are you?

I once met an Englishman in Tonga, who had crossed from Hawaii in a
24' boat. I believe the boat he used from England to Hawaii was not
that much larger. He sailed singlehanded, and never seemed to think
the size of the boat was a problem.

(To Nick, if you read this: did you ever get away from Neiafu?)

"G" == Gary writes:

G wrote:
Jeff wrote:


...
Actually, its fairly easy to add flotation to a small boat.
...
Do you know of any larger sailboat (over 40') with built-in solid

floatation ? Doesn't it make even more sense to have this in larger
boats (costing hundreds of thousands of dollars) than in a $20,000
boat which doesn't carry much of our belongings ?
Even if we're careful and only sail in good weather, there's always

a possibility of a collision such as when somebody else doesn't have
their lights on.
G Larger boats have watertight compartments and collision bulkheads
G which really do the same thing as foam.


G Crossing the Atlantic in a MacGregor 26 is not impossible or
G improbable. Somebody will do it someday. It is just gonna take a lot
G of skill and luck. Some amazing journeys have been done in very small
G seemingly uncapable boats but the element of luck is unpredictable.


G How lucky are you?

--
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.