what's better & why??

~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:
what's better & why??


For what kind of boat, doing what kind of sailing?

It may be easier to figure out if you go back to first principles... the
problem is that a lot of people don't know how, or have a number of
strange superstitions where applied physics should be.

Fast and/or heavy boats develop more force on the helm than slow and/or
light ones. How big a boat are you comfortable steering with a tiller in
25 knot winds and 8'+ quartering seas? With a tiller you can get
somewhat faster reaction & more feel, but at some point, even a strong
human is going to not have the muscles (or just plain get tired).

Tillers are certainly cheaper, too. And if designed to be unshipped or
pivoted up out of the way, they leave the cockpit much clearer.

Wheels can be very cool, though.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Agreed, and also depends on how well the boat is balanced.

A spade rudder can be "balanced " itself, which can lighten the helm
considerably, as opposed to a rudder hinged to the trailing edge of the
keel.

"DSK" wrote in message
...
~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:
what's better & why??


For what kind of boat, doing what kind of sailing?

It may be easier to figure out if you go back to first principles... the
problem is that a lot of people don't know how, or have a number of
strange superstitions where applied physics should be.

Fast and/or heavy boats develop more force on the helm than slow and/or
light ones. How big a boat are you comfortable steering with a tiller in
25 knot winds and 8'+ quartering seas? With a tiller you can get somewhat
faster reaction & more feel, but at some point, even a strong human is
going to not have the muscles (or just plain get tired).

Tillers are certainly cheaper, too. And if designed to be unshipped or
pivoted up out of the way, they leave the cockpit much clearer.

Wheels can be very cool, though.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

anyone ever used a trim tab on a rudder? like
we have on rudders and elevators in airplanes?
this allows the pilot to "dial in" a certain amount of balance...

"~^ beancounter ~^" wrote in
ups.com:

what's better & why??


I like to use the remote hand-held controller because you can move around
and see better than you can with the main controls on the control panel....

It just works better that way and the coil cord keeps it neat....(c;

One of these little harbor cruises, I'm gonna drag out Amel's emergency
rudder gear up on deck and put the pole down into the top of the rudder
post through the watertight hole in the aft cabin top. The tiller hooks on
to the top of it and steers under the mizzen boom, just missing the mizzen
gear. The handle on it is about 5' long so should be able to steer the
ketch quite well, in spite of her natural bad weather helm. I'd hate to be
stuck at sea and have to control her in the big waves with it from the aft
cabin roof. That would suck....

Amel's steering gear is two large push-pull cables to a big bellcrank on
top of the rudder post. It's like a large version of an outboard motor
steering cable, but two of them, one pushing and one pulling when you turn
the big wheel in either direction. The wheel, instead of being in the way
on a pedestal, is flat against the forward bulkhead making it easy to get
to the various electronics I have installed. The cable gear is inside the
overhead cabinet over the galley sink and work counter. This same little
cabinet is where all the electricals come to Amel's DC panel, where the
Perkins control panel back is very easy to get to and where I've installed
the master electronics contactor, multiplexer and terminated all the
electronics. The Raymarine gyro is on a bulkhead, but I have the compass
sensor located elsewhere nearer CG away from all this current.

The wheel is stainless, 3-spoke and about 3 turns lock to lock. It will
tired you out good after 8 hours fighting 8-12 ft waves trying to hold a
course. Been there, done that. B&G Pilot is useless in these conditions,
I've found. It just can't keep up. I think, in spite of its own compass
sensor being positioned so it receives a minimum of movement, the compass
sensor sloshing around is why it gets so confused. Switching to the
computer helps a lot, but its reaction time isn't fast enough to suit us.



--
Larry

On 23 Sep 2005 13:28:39 -0700, "~^ beancounter ~^"
wrote:

what's better & why??

You have to learn more before you ask questions like "Your wife or a
rubber dolly...which is better and why"?

Not to be harsh, but seriously...

R.

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:48:17 -0400, DSK wrote:

Tillers are certainly cheaper, too. And if designed to be unshipped or
pivoted up out of the way, they leave the cockpit much clearer.

Wheels can be very cool, though.

More to break and harder to access on a smaller boat (say, under 30
feet), however, and they take up a lot of room in some cockpits (most
of which are better small, anyway) and they put the helmsman usually
right at the aft end.

Again, not necessarily ideal.

Autopiloting with a tiller can be done with a piece of thick shock
cord/thin line and a "tiller tamer". With a wheel, the solution is
usually electrical and expensive.

Lastly, with a tiller extension, I can shift my weight to high side
and see around the boat while I continue to steer. I can also steer
with my legs...ok, with my backside...as I handle the cabintop
mainsheet. I can even grind a winch with a foot pinning the extension.

So I like tillers for feel, convenience, simplicity, the saved space
when at dock, cost and flexibility to move practically onto the
toerail on a 33 footer and still steer using a little stick screwed
into the bigger stick.

But after 35 feet or so, things can get heavy, particularly in ocean
sailing. And some people feel more confident behind a wheel. And if
you like gadgets, it's easier in some ways to adapt wheel steering to
autohelming than a tiller, although it's pretty simple to adapt a
tiller to a windvane, and all the parts stay visible.

After 25 years of wheel-mania, however, things may be changing, just a
bit. I saw that a brand new Jenneau SO 32
http://www.cruisingworld.com/article...=395&catID=565

with a lovely heavily varnished tiller! I asked the owner about it,
and he said pretty well what I did, but with the added point that with
a "sugar scoop" stern, a wheel would ruin one of the more attractive
options of someone who had mastered stern-in docking: the ability to
walk directly into the boat without stepping up or down.

But to each their own. I dislike Hunters, but I thought that Hunter 50
"concept boat" with a tiller was brave and logical, given the light
weight and the (presumed) racer-cruiser aspect.

R.

"rhys" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:48:17 -0400, DSK wrote:

Tillers are certainly cheaper, too. And if designed to be unshipped or
pivoted up out of the way, they leave the cockpit much clearer.

Wheels can be very cool, though.

More to break and harder to access on a smaller boat (say, under 30
feet), however, and they take up a lot of room in some cockpits (most
of which are better small, anyway) and they put the helmsman usually
right at the aft end.

Again, not necessarily ideal.

Autopiloting with a tiller can be done with a piece of thick shock
cord/thin line and a "tiller tamer". With a wheel, the solution is
usually electrical and expensive.

Lastly, with a tiller extension, I can shift my weight to high side
and see around the boat while I continue to steer. I can also steer
with my legs...ok, with my backside...as I handle the cabintop
mainsheet. I can even grind a winch with a foot pinning the extension.

So I like tillers for feel, convenience, simplicity, the saved space
when at dock, cost and flexibility to move practically onto the
toerail on a 33 footer and still steer using a little stick screwed
into the bigger stick.

But after 35 feet or so, things can get heavy, particularly in ocean
sailing. And some people feel more confident behind a wheel. And if
you like gadgets, it's easier in some ways to adapt wheel steering to
autohelming than a tiller, although it's pretty simple to adapt a
tiller to a windvane, and all the parts stay visible.

After 25 years of wheel-mania, however, things may be changing, just a
bit. I saw that a brand new Jenneau SO 32
http://www.cruisingworld.com/article...=395&catID=565

with a lovely heavily varnished tiller! I asked the owner about it,
and he said pretty well what I did, but with the added point that with
a "sugar scoop" stern, a wheel would ruin one of the more attractive
options of someone who had mastered stern-in docking: the ability to
walk directly into the boat without stepping up or down.

But to each their own. I dislike Hunters, but I thought that Hunter 50
"concept boat" with a tiller was brave and logical, given the light
weight and the (presumed) racer-cruiser aspect.

R.

Since you mentioned autopiloting, would add that tillerpilots are about half
the cost of wheelpilots and a LOT easier to install.

John Cairns

Duh
That is why I put quotation marks around balance when I was speaking to
rudder balance., to indicate a different concept.
Rudder balance has a dramatic affect on how light or heavy the helm is,
which was the original question.


"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:45:08 -0400, "Garland Gray II"
said:

Agreed, and also depends on how well the boat is balanced.

A spade rudder can be "balanced " itself, which can lighten the helm
considerably, as opposed to a rudder hinged to the trailing edge of the
keel.

Someone on the CS mailing list recently pointed out that boat balance and
rudder balance are two different things entirely. Boat balance is
primarily
determined by the distance between the center of effort of the wind and
the
center of lateral resistance. A change in the rudder balance will only
affect boat balanced marginally, if at all.

Dave

After 25 years of wheel-mania, however, things may be changing, just a
bit. I saw that a brand new Jenneau SO 32
http://www.cruisingworld.com/article...=395&catID=565

nice info "R"...i always pictured a tiller as a firmly attached antenna
protruding
up, and out of the rudder...throwing out all sorts of useful
information...i guess
on boats under 35 feet, or so....tillers would be better, coupled w/a
great auto
pilot system....