Mic wrote:
True, but they were still out in it. It just happened that in this
case, they had an alternative. If they didn't have the alternative,
would they have abandoned ship?

I dont know, what do you think? But if they knew what the weather was
would they have changed the time they left?


Well, when they fell off to SA, they were only 100 miles off and
making little progress. Turning away made sense then, but I'm not
sure what the point of the hindsight is. I wouldn't bother going out
against a 30 knot headwind with an adverse current, but it isn't a
disaster when it happens. IIRC, when this happened last to us, we
changed plans and found an alternate destination.


Almost every time I've been "caught out" there was a forecast for
strong winds. Usually we were trying to "thread the needle" between
two weather systems. I'm sure my wife wishes a few of the episodes
never happened, but I have no regrets and think we did the correct
things. We never had a nasty problem, just a few hours of discomfort
and perhaps a little anxiety.


Also if you read bill_dietrich logs at:
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dietri...agnoliaLog.txt
Currently in Bahamas, you will see how many boats leave an anchorage
and them shortly return...

Seen it all the time, been there myself. It doesn't change a thing.
You must assume that every now and them you'll be caught in stronger
winds than you normally are comfortable in. Frankly, these people are
lucky that the weak link is their own nerve (or their stomachs),
rather than the boat.


Well if you read their logs particularly the ones in New Zealand and
the issues with the SA builder of their Wild Cat, be very thankful you
have a PDQ. I doubt it has to do with there nerve, rather the fact
that they had issues beating to the weather and were making poor
distance over ground.

Nothing wrong with changing course because of a headwind - that's part
of sailing.



If you plan to go out there, you had better be able to answer it.
Every choice you make for gear and planning will have this in the
background.


Really? I know exactly what mods I feel would be necessary and
satisfied with. I dont believe anyone really knows what the necessary
design point is, like you said " somewhere between average winds and
Force 5 hurricane" hummm...wouldnt that be about 100 mph spread?

Nobody knows for sure, but that can't stop you from making your best
guess. Here's an example: do you plan to cruise in hurricane season?
If so what would you do if there was a hurricane forecast? Would
you anchor? If so, that means you carry at least three anchors and
rodes, hopefully one of them well oversized. Thus, if you you don't
do that, you've decided that this is not an option for you. Do you
have jacklines and harnesses? If not, you've decided you can't handle
10 foot seas, Reef points? Sea anchor? And so on. I tend to be
conservative, but I'm also lazy and sometimes get paranoid in
unfamiliar situations. But so far, its always worked out.



It has been said so many times that in such situations it becomes more
of an issue of sailing ability (decisions) than necessarily the boat.


A good boat helps.

And remember - you've been "surprised" that more boats don't have
provisions for emergency rudders. Most of these coastal boats don't,
in fact relatively few passage makers nowadays have that.


Any passage maker who hasnt considered or mad provision for an emerg
rudder.....good luck to them they will need it.


True, but there are many ways to jury rig steering gear.

And, very, very few boats are designed as ready to go passage makers.
Why? Because although many people dream about it, very very few
actually do it.


I suppose I have to tell eventually ... I have a catamaran, a PDQ 36.
One rudder on each hull, off course, tied together with a crosslink
attached to each quadrant. One is driven by a cable from the wheel;
each can accept a tiller from above. Although space, speed, and
stability were the primary factors in going with a cat, the safety of
twin rudders, twin engines, and the flotation of twin hulls were a
significant part of the decision.


Hahaha...yep that sure answers the 2 rudder question. I am familar
with the PDQ, I' m sure Bumfuzzle would rather have one. There cat is
about 3 years new in N. Zealand they had a delam of the cored hull.
The one of the saildrive diesels overheated, etc.......

The delam certainly doesn't speak well for the builder, or the surveyor.

The saildrive overheated because the water pump impeller lost two
vanes - not exactly the manufacturer's fault. They should have added
temperature gauges so the overheat could be detected before it got
critical. Last summer we saw the temp climb too fast when we left a
mooring and were able to return and fix it within an hour. A faulty
impeller - it only had 20 hours on it! Again - a matter of decisions.
having seen an engine cook its paint off from overheating, I
wouldn't go out without temp gauges.


Some cat owners put no-skid on the underside of the bridge deck as it
makes a more comfortable platform when or if they turn turtle.....


Where did you pick up that nonsense? There's been almost no capsizes
of cruising cats - less than a dozen in the last 20 years if you only
count over 35 feet and actually being cruised by owners. And I've
never heard of a capsize that wasn't really caused by too much sail.

Do you know:
http://www.tendervittles.net/index.html
on a PDQ Tom and Amy.....
Probably one of my most favorite life/sailing adventures posted on the
net that I have found, Bumfuzzle is interesting to.

Yes, I've seen their site. We've crossed paths but never actually met.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:27:17 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Mic wrote:
True, but they were still out in it. It just happened that in this
case, they had an alternative. If they didn't have the alternative,
would they have abandoned ship?

I dont know, what do you think? But if they knew what the weather was
would they have changed the time they left?


Well, when they fell off to SA, they were only 100 miles off and
making little progress. Turning away made sense then, but I'm not
sure what the point of the hindsight is. I wouldn't bother going out
against a 30 knot headwind with an adverse current, but it isn't a
disaster when it happens. IIRC, when this happened last to us, we
changed plans and found an alternate destination.


Almost every time I've been "caught out" there was a forecast for
strong winds. Usually we were trying to "thread the needle" between
two weather systems. I'm sure my wife wishes a few of the episodes
never happened, but I have no regrets and think we did the correct
things. We never had a nasty problem, just a few hours of discomfort
and perhaps a little anxiety.


Also if you read bill_dietrich logs at:
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dietri...agnoliaLog.txt
Currently in Bahamas, you will see how many boats leave an anchorage
and them shortly return...

Seen it all the time, been there myself. It doesn't change a thing.
You must assume that every now and them you'll be caught in stronger
winds than you normally are comfortable in. Frankly, these people are
lucky that the weak link is their own nerve (or their stomachs),
rather than the boat.


Well if you read their logs particularly the ones in New Zealand and
the issues with the SA builder of their Wild Cat, be very thankful you
have a PDQ. I doubt it has to do with there nerve, rather the fact
that they had issues beating to the weather and were making poor
distance over ground.

Nothing wrong with changing course because of a headwind - that's part
of sailing.

I believe they made the right decision, to have done so much tacking
in an uncomfortable situation.



If you plan to go out there, you had better be able to answer it.
Every choice you make for gear and planning will have this in the
background.


Really? I know exactly what mods I feel would be necessary and
satisfied with. I dont believe anyone really knows what the necessary
design point is, like you said " somewhere between average winds and
Force 5 hurricane" hummm...wouldnt that be about 100 mph spread?

Nobody knows for sure, but that can't stop you from making your best
guess. Here's an example: do you plan to cruise in hurricane season?

Possibly, but not necessarly make a decision on what other cruisers
are doing.

If so what would you do if there was a hurricane forecast?

That really depends, on where you were.

Would
you anchor?

Again depends where you are and what force it is.

If so, that means you carry at least three anchors and
rodes, hopefully one of them well oversized. Thus, if you you don't
do that, you've decided that this is not an option for you. Do you
have jacklines and harnesses?

Certainly would.

f not, you've decided you can't handle
10 foot seas, Reef points? Sea anchor? And so on. I tend to be
conservative, but I'm also lazy and sometimes get paranoid in
unfamiliar situations. But so far, its always worked out.



It has been said so many times that in such situations it becomes more
of an issue of sailing ability (decisions) than necessarily the boat.


A good boat helps.

Yep

And remember - you've been "surprised" that more boats don't have
provisions for emergency rudders. Most of these coastal boats don't,
in fact relatively few passage makers nowadays have that.


Any passage maker who hasnt considered or mad provision for an emerg
rudder.....good luck to them they will need it.


True, but there are many ways to jury rig steering gear.

And, very, very few boats are designed as ready to go passage makers.
Why? Because although many people dream about it, very very few
actually do it.

Yep


I suppose I have to tell eventually ... I have a catamaran, a PDQ 36.
One rudder on each hull, off course, tied together with a crosslink
attached to each quadrant. One is driven by a cable from the wheel;
each can accept a tiller from above. Although space, speed, and
stability were the primary factors in going with a cat, the safety of
twin rudders, twin engines, and the flotation of twin hulls were a
significant part of the decision.


Hahaha...yep that sure answers the 2 rudder question. I am familar
with the PDQ, I' m sure Bumfuzzle would rather have one. There cat is
about 3 years new in N. Zealand they had a delam of the cored hull.
The one of the saildrive diesels overheated, etc.......

The delam certainly doesn't speak well for the builder, or the surveyor.

yep

The saildrive overheated because the water pump impeller lost two
vanes - not exactly the manufacturer's fault. They should have added
temperature gauges so the overheat could be detected before it got
critical. Last summer we saw the temp climb too fast when we left a
mooring and were able to return and fix it within an hour. A faulty
impeller - it only had 20 hours on it! Again - a matter of decisions.
having seen an engine cook its paint off from overheating, I
wouldn't go out without temp gauges.

Actually as I remember it -
when the heat exchanger for the water system was put in the temp
warning cable was too short so it was never connected to the buzzer
system - it cost them the engine.


Some cat owners put no-skid on the underside of the bridge deck as it
makes a more comfortable platform when or if they turn turtle.....


Where did you pick up that nonsense? There's been almost no capsizes
of cruising cats - less than a dozen in the last 20 years if you only
count over 35 feet and actually being cruised by owners. And I've
never heard of a capsize that wasn't really caused by too much sail.

In New Zealand during Bumfuzzle hull repair the yard put no=skid on
the bridge deck for that very reason - the underside.

Cats are becoming even more popular and have significant advantages
for passage making. They are more expense to buy and maintain. And I
havent seen one for under 10k like alot of 26 = 28 monohulls.

Do you know:
http://www.tendervittles.net/index.html
on a PDQ Tom and Amy.....
Probably one of my most favorite life/sailing adventures posted on the
net that I have found, Bumfuzzle is interesting to.

Yes, I've seen their site. We've crossed paths but never actually met.

I really like their writing style, they are very witty....

While reading rec.boats.cruising, I noticed Jeff felt
compelled to write:

Mic wrote:

Some cat owners put no-skid on the underside of the bridge deck as it
makes a more comfortable platform when or if they turn turtle.....


Where did you pick up that nonsense? There's been almost no capsizes
of cruising cats - less than a dozen in the last 20 years if you only
count over 35 feet and actually being cruised by owners. And I've
never heard of a capsize that wasn't really caused by too much sail.

Heh, another mono -v- multi fable. The fairing time and expense saved
by applying non-skid to out of sight areas is the main reason to do
this, of course. Nobody actually expects to ever walk on the stuff,
but if the unthinkable happens, it's another form of preparation.

Reefing early to gust speed and keeping enough sea-room to bear off
will keep any modern, well designed multihull right-side-up.

Ian