Mic wrote:
I am aware of "the forces that (can) act on boats at sea". I readily
can not give you the ref. for the following, but am willing to accept
them as reasonable:

It would seem that you aren't really aware ...


It was stated that about 93% of the time the winds are between 13-17
knots and for the remaining 7% of the time - 97% of that time they are
between 17-21 knots.


It may have been "stated" but that doesn't make it true or meaningful.

First of all, the "average" wind varies a fair amount by location and
season, so any statistical claim such as that is just nonsense. In
Boston, for example, these numbers hold for July, the calmest month.
But in May and September there are numerous "average wind"
observations over 25 knots. Boston is somewhat windier than most
cities, but it is fairly representative of the New England coast. The
trades can be even windier.

And the "average wind" is meaningless when evaluating stresses on a
dodger or other accessories; it is the gusts that are significant.
Here the "93% point" in May and Sept is up around 23 knots, and 2% of
the gusts are over 30 knots.

In fact, if you just look at the record gusts, you'll find that most
cities in the US have had high gusts (over 40 knots) in almost every
month of the year. Thus, any permanently rigged dodger has to be able
handle that. My standard is 50 knots - that is, when I leave the boat
unattended, I assume that it can withstand gusts up to about 50 knots.
Above that point, I might consider adding docklines or removing
canvas. Designing something to "average winds" is silly.



Its not the wind (for the most part) that does damage it the waves, as
you suggest.

Actually, for the case of a dodger, its probably your brother-in-law
falling into it that you have to worry about. The frame should be at
least strong enough to hold a person; ideally it should be able to
withstand a person falling heavily against it.



I can not reasonably recall the force of a breaking wave on the deck
of a boat but I do recall I was amazed at figure of that force.

If you are on the wrong side of a "plunging breaker" your dodger is
the least of your worries ...

....


The copper tube support that "Walt" designed is interesting, but when
compared to the commercial vanes it is rather "light". I do believe
he said it survived 20 knot situations.

20 knots? What's the point? Self steering should be bulletproof,
not good enough for a daysail.



I have researched virtually all the sailing homebrew material
available:

....

The common aspect of of most of the "home brew" techniques is that
they have been proven worthless. For example, how many home built
ferro-cement boats are still sailing? Home many blue poly sails do
you see?

There are a few notable exceptions, but most of the home brew building
materials are junk. Why don't you see blue poly dodgers? Because
most people understand that the materials are only about 20% of the
value of the project. Most of the value is in the craft of assembly
and finish. Why would anyone use third rate materials for something
that takes a lot of manual labor?

My oldest sailing friends have cruised aboard for many years on a low
budget. Their current boat has probably tripled in value under their
careful restoration. They've done all their own canvas (and much of
mine), much of their rigging, replaced the engine and most
mechanicals, added wind and solar power, many, many, coats of varnish.
And one thing that stands out is that most of their work looks like
it was done by a professional shipyard, or better. All of the
materials are exactly what they should be, whether its stainless,
teak, or Sunbrella. I think they did use pvc for one project -
supports for solar panels that are only deployed at anchor - but I'm
guessing that was just a prototype that will soon be replaced by
stainless.

If you want to avoid working with stainless tube a hard dodger or bimini
might be a good alternative. You can make the form with masonite over some
shaped 2x6s. Just paint and wax the masonite and lay the glass over it.
You would need to provide for additional thickness at the edges and possibly
a ridge across the center to add some stiffness.

As I get older a nice warm hard dodger extending back over the cockpit
sounds more and more attractive but Rutu was not designed for that. We will
have a split Bimini hung fore and aft of the traveler arch and possibly a
soft dodger if the boat stays here on the Georgia so I can extend my sailing
season. In the Leewards where we hope to be when we reach the
"post-tuition" stage of life we will just use the Bimini.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Glenn I checked out you boatbuilding page, and I do remember reading
it a while ago, I liked it, it had personality.

I have done some futher consideration. You know all the cloth dodgers
I have seen, once they are setup they are never taken down (winter
storage may be an exception), which I also know from my own
experience.

The cruising logs I have read many have opted for a "hard dodger" or
commented that they might have prefered one. I have seen a few web
pages about building one...and well they can look OK or not visually
pleasing.

Glenn are you planning on a hard dodger or a dog house on your
construction or??????

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:43:30 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Mic wrote:
I am aware of "the forces that (can) act on boats at sea". I readily
can not give you the ref. for the following, but am willing to accept
them as reasonable:

It would seem that you aren't really aware ...


It was stated that about 93% of the time the winds are between 13-17
knots and for the remaining 7% of the time - 97% of that time they are
between 17-21 knots.


It may have been "stated" but that doesn't make it true or meaningful.

The above statement can be said about anthing. But If you take your
own experience and that of others from their logs then come to your
own conclusion on its relative truth or meaningfulness.



First of all, the "average" wind varies a fair amount by location and
season, so any statistical claim such as that is just nonsense.

Yep. The reputation of the tasman sea is an example or the north
atlantic. But the trade winds are different and the pacific "milk
run"...


In
Boston, for example, these numbers hold for July, the calmest month.
But in May and September there are numerous "average wind"
observations over 25 knots. Boston is somewhat windier than most
cities, but it is fairly representative of the New England coast. The
trades can be even windier.

And the "average wind" is meaningless when evaluating stresses on a
dodger or other accessories; it is the gusts that are significant.
Here the "93% point" in May and Sept is up around 23 knots, and 2% of
the gusts are over 30 knots.

Interesting link
http://web.usna.navy.mil/~phmiller/usna1.html


In fact, if you just look at the record gusts, you'll find that most
cities in the US have had high gusts (over 40 knots) in almost every
month of the year. Thus, any permanently rigged dodger has to be able
handle that.

Yep, although I have never seen a claim by any maker of tests to and
of their dodgers., why?



My standard is 50 knots - that is, when I leave the boat
unattended, I assume that it can withstand gusts up to about 50 knots.
Above that point, I might consider adding docklines or removing
canvas. Designing something to "average winds" is silly.

Yep, but designed to force 5 huricanes, it that practical or common.



Its not the wind (for the most part) that does damage it the waves, as
you suggest.

Actually, for the case of a dodger, its probably your brother-in-law
falling into it that you have to worry about. The frame should be at
least strong enough to hold a person; ideally it should be able to
withstand a person falling heavily against it.

Probably, but I doubt any standard commercial dodger would survive a
200lbs person in all situations without damage.



I can not reasonably recall the force of a breaking wave on the deck
of a boat but I do recall I was amazed at figure of that force.

If you are on the wrong side of a "plunging breaker" your dodger is
the least of your worries ...

Yep....

...


The copper tube support that "Walt" designed is interesting, but when
compared to the commercial vanes it is rather "light". I do believe
he said it survived 20 knot situations.

20 knots? What's the point? Self steering should be bulletproof,
not good enough for a daysail.

I doubt that any of the initial prototype designs qualify the ones
used to cross oceans,
and even some of the current ones in an all bulletproof design.
How many boats have the ready provision for emerg. steering? I only
know of one production boat as such. Why dont they have that, is
almost common sense, (common sense isnt so common:{} )
Most are of a homebrew design. either as foresights or as required.




I have researched virtually all the sailing homebrew material
available:

...

The common aspect of of most of the "home brew" techniques is that
they have been proven worthless. For example, how many home built
ferro-cement boats are still sailing?

That is an exception example. I figure the best construction tech. is
the one Glen Ashmore is using, and relative to quality control will be
better than just about any production boat. Homebrew maybe
worthless to some but an inspiration to others, like Hugh Piggots
brake disc wind generator, etc, etc......

Stitch and glue is a homebrew tech. and is accepted as a commonly
acceptable tech. etc.

Home many blue poly sails do
you see?

Well, not many. But they are mostly on 18footer or less. Ususally the
stitch and glue dingys.... but the knowledge and tech. could be
applied in certain situations... an those that have used them would
have spent more on sails than in the construction of their boat.



There are a few notable exceptions, but most of the home brew building
materials are junk. Why don't you see blue poly dodgers? Because
most people understand that the materials are only about 20% of the
value of the project. Most of the value is in the craft of assembly
and finish. Why would anyone use third rate materials for something
that takes a lot of manual labor?

Yep. This can be applied to production boats. Refer to Bob Pascoe
website.

My oldest sailing friends have cruised aboard for many years on a low
budget. Their current boat has probably tripled in value under their
careful restoration. They've done all their own canvas (and much of
mine), much of their rigging, replaced the engine and most
mechanicals, added wind and solar power, many, many, coats of varnish.
And one thing that stands out is that most of their work looks like
it was done by a professional shipyard, or better. All of the
materials are exactly what they should be, whether its stainless,
teak, or Sunbrella. I think they did use pvc for one project -
supports for solar panels that are only deployed at anchor - but I'm
guessing that was just a prototype that will soon be replaced by
stainless.


I have heard and seen many boaters using PVC and blue poly tarps for
their winter covers. Now the tarps may only last a season or two, but
no one, that I know of has had an issue with the PVC supports other
than the tech. they used to secure them to the boat. Some tent poles
are made of fiberglass and it is amazing how much they bend, I haven
seen or heard of one breaking but thats not to say they dont. Look at
the condition on Everest, and the material that are used, sort of like
a fixed sail on land.

Mic wrote:
....

The cruising logs I have read many have opted for a "hard dodger" or
commented that they might have prefered one. I have seen a few web
pages about building one...and well they can look OK or not visually
pleasing.


My boat has a "hardtop" which is really a 'glass platform supported by
heavy steel tubes. Its strong enough to walk on, large enough for
three solar panels, and ridged enough for the main traveler. Its
surrounded by canvas, with large windows and flys screens.

The way our cockpit is laid out, this has become an extra room. With
the full canvas surround, its possible to sail in freezing weather;
when the Sun hits the windows, it becomes a greenhouse.

The downside is that we tend to leave too much canvas up. Those who
sail these boats down south often remove all of the canvas for full
ventilation.

Its construction is far beyond my capabilities, especially since
windows and gutters are molded in, and carbon fibre is used to stiffen
it. If I had to do something like this myself, I would have someone
fabricate a strong frame in stainless, and then sew my own canvas
around it.

Here's a picture taken late in October, when the average gust in 18 knots:

http://www.sv-loki.com/Along_the_Way/surround.jpg

Mic wrote:
....
It was stated that about 93% of the time the winds are between 13-17
knots and for the remaining 7% of the time - 97% of that time they are
between 17-21 knots.

It may have been "stated" but that doesn't make it true or meaningful.

The above statement can be said about anthing. But If you take your
own experience and that of others from their logs then come to your
own conclusion on its relative truth or meaningfulness.


I think just about all of the readers here would think the the maximum
gust strength in more significant than the average wind strength. In
many locations, the average summer wind could be offered as proof that
sailing is physically impossible!




First of all, the "average" wind varies a fair amount by location and
season, so any statistical claim such as that is just nonsense.


Yep. The reputation of the tasman sea is an example or the north
atlantic. But the trade winds are different and the pacific "milk
run"...

In all of those cases you'll encounter winds stronger than your
implied average.

....

Interesting link
http://web.usna.navy.mil/~phmiller/usna1.html


lots of neat stuff there ... anything in particular?



In fact, if you just look at the record gusts, you'll find that most
cities in the US have had high gusts (over 40 knots) in almost every
month of the year. Thus, any permanently rigged dodger has to be able
handle that.


Yep, although I have never seen a claim by any maker of tests to and
of their dodgers., why?

Its a little hard - there are too many variables. And if no one does
it, there's no reason for anyone to do it. Actually, I expect the
various components of the dodger are warrantied for manufacturing
flaws, such as stitching coming out, but there are very few products
covered for hurricane damage.

My standard is 50 knots - that is, when I leave the boat
unattended, I assume that it can withstand gusts up to about 50 knots.
Above that point, I might consider adding docklines or removing
canvas. Designing something to "average winds" is silly.


Yep, but designed to force 5 huricanes, it that practical or common.

No, obviously at some point it is prudent to remove the canvas.
However, you made comments that seemed to imply that wind over 21
knots is so uncommon as to be not worth considering. The one time my
boat was in the the direct path of a hurricane (Bob, '91, but
diminished to marginal hurricane strength) I stripped all sail and
canvas. However, of the 350 boats on my marina, few stripped
everything and there was only minor damage. Clearly, most of the
dodgers were built to at least minimal hurricane strength. My
cousin's boat was carried a mile inland and had to be lifted out by
helicopter, but the dodger survived.

Actually, for the case of a dodger, its probably your brother-in-law
falling into it that you have to worry about. The frame should be at
least strong enough to hold a person; ideally it should be able to
withstand a person falling heavily against it.


Probably, but I doubt any standard commercial dodger would survive a
200lbs person in all situations without damage.


Many are built to hold the weight of a full sized person hanging from
it as they go down the companionway. I doubt a pvc frame would hold
that. Actually, this situation is probably the key issue of this
discussion.

....


How many boats have the ready provision for emerg. steering? I only
know of one production boat as such. Why dont they have that, is
almost common sense, (common sense isnt so common:{} )
Most are of a homebrew design. either as foresights or as required.

My boat has two (potentially) independent rudder systems, with
provision for an emergency tiller on either. My previous boat, and
many quality boats with wheel steering, has provision for an emergency
tiller.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what the value of true emergency steering
is, given that 99% of boats almost never leave SeaTow range. Would a
Catalina 30 buyer pay a few thousand extra for this capability? Wind
vane self steering is useful for long distance passage makers, and for
them, a fully redundant backup rudder is handy, but this is an after
market issue.

Frankly, if I were building a boat specifically for long distance
passages, I'd want to minimize the chance of damage, with a heavy duty
rudder mounted on skeg.





I have researched virtually all the sailing homebrew material
available:

...

The common aspect of of most of the "home brew" techniques is that
they have been proven worthless. For example, how many home built
ferro-cement boats are still sailing?


That is an exception example.

No, that's right up there with poly sails and pvc davits. And don't
forget pepper in bottom paint.

....

Stitch and glue is a homebrew tech. and is accepted as a commonly
acceptable tech. etc.

This is one exception I was thinking of. However, its only useful for
small boats.


Home many blue poly sails do you see?

Well, not many. But they are mostly on 18footer or less. Ususally the
stitch and glue dingys.... but the knowledge and tech. could be
applied in certain situations... an those that have used them would
have spent more on sails than in the construction of their boat.


If your goal is to prove that that you can make a mediocre (at best)
boat for pocket change, fine. And I'll even admit that the first boat
I built had a sail made from an old bedsheet.

However, sailcloth is about a buck a square foot. Spinnaker cloth is
even less. So what do you save? 50 bucks? If I'm going to sit at
the sewing machine for a few hours, plus put in a mess of grommets,
I'd rather spend the $50 and have something I'm proud of.





There are a few notable exceptions, but most of the home brew building
materials are junk. Why don't you see blue poly dodgers? Because
most people understand that the materials are only about 20% of the
value of the project. Most of the value is in the craft of assembly
and finish. Why would anyone use third rate materials for something
that takes a lot of manual labor?


Yep. This can be applied to production boats. Refer to Bob Pascoe
website.

Actually, I'd say that most of Pascoe's horrible examples are a big
step up from poly dodgers. I will admit that I chartered an Irwin for
a season (that was the Hurricane Bob boat) and it was such a POS that
my subsequent two boats were from high quality manufacturers.


....

I have heard and seen many boaters using PVC and blue poly tarps for
their winter covers. Now the tarps may only last a season or two, but
no one, that I know of has had an issue with the PVC supports other
than the tech. they used to secure them to the boat. Some tent poles
are made of fiberglass and it is amazing how much they bend, I haven
seen or heard of one breaking but thats not to say they dont. Look at
the condition on Everest, and the material that are used, sort of like
a fixed sail on land.

Well, of course a blue poly tarp is not a bad winter sail cover, I've
even used them for a few seasons. But isn't that a case of using a
material for it's actual designed purpose? Most shrink wrap frames
around here are built from very cheap wood strapping. PVC, conduit,
or almost anything else is a step up.

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:25:36 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Mic wrote:
...
It was stated that about 93% of the time the winds are between 13-17
knots and for the remaining 7% of the time - 97% of that time they are
between 17-21 knots.

It may have been "stated" but that doesn't make it true or meaningful.

The above statement can be said about anthing. But If you take your
own experience and that of others from their logs then come to your
own conclusion on its relative truth or meaningfulness.


I think just about all of the readers here would think the the maximum
gust strength in more significant than the average wind strength.

yep..a gust is not sustained winds.

In
many locations, the average summer wind could be offered as proof that
sailing is physically impossible!

I really cant think of any, where would you suggest?




First of all, the "average" wind varies a fair amount by location and
season, so any statistical claim such as that is just nonsense.


Yep. The reputation of the tasman sea is an example or the north
atlantic. But the trade winds are different and the pacific "milk
run"...

In all of those cases you'll encounter winds stronger than your
implied average.

Yep thats why I mentioned them, and other than the "horn" and the tip
of south africa, well the artics too...relative to the vastness of the
ocean, I dont consider that alot.

How many people do you see go out when it is 30 knots sustained. Near
zero.

...

Interesting link
http://web.usna.navy.mil/~phmiller/usna1.html


lots of neat stuff there ... anything in particular?

Yes....Stiffness Reduction of Marine Composites
http://web.usna.navy.mil/~phmiller/J...24fatigue.html



In fact, if you just look at the record gusts, you'll find that most
cities in the US have had high gusts (over 40 knots) in almost every
month of the year. Thus, any permanently rigged dodger has to be able
handle that.


Yep, although I have never seen a claim by any maker of tests to and
of their dodgers., why?

Its a little hard - there are too many variables. And if no one does
it, there's no reason for anyone to do it. Actually, I expect the
various components of the dodger are warrantied for manufacturing
flaws, such as stitching coming out, but there are very few products
covered for hurricane damage.

Right...so it all kind of relative and somewhat subjective.


My standard is 50 knots - that is, when I leave the boat
unattended, I assume that it can withstand gusts up to about 50 knots.
Above that point, I might consider adding docklines or removing
canvas. Designing something to "average winds" is silly.


Yep, but designed to force 5 huricanes, it that practical or common.

No, obviously at some point it is prudent to remove the canvas.
However, you made comments that seemed to imply that wind over 21
knots is so uncommon as to be not worth considering.

No actually that is what is the most worth considering, but am of the
opinion that it is not a frequent stat., "sustained" winds over 21
knots, geographic exceptions noted.

The one time my
boat was in the the direct path of a hurricane (Bob, '91, but
diminished to marginal hurricane strength) I stripped all sail and
canvas. However, of the 350 boats on my marina, few stripped
everything and there was only minor damage. Clearly, most of the
dodgers were built to at least minimal hurricane strength. My
cousin's boat was carried a mile inland and had to be lifted out by
helicopter, but the dodger survived.

Actually, for the case of a dodger, its probably your brother-in-law
falling into it that you have to worry about. The frame should be at
least strong enough to hold a person; ideally it should be able to
withstand a person falling heavily against it.


Probably, but I doubt any standard commercial dodger would survive a
200lbs person in all situations without damage.


Many are built to hold the weight of a full sized person hanging from
it as they go down the companionway. I doubt a pvc frame would hold
that. Actually, this situation is probably the key issue of this
discussion.

Actually I prefer ABS...If I have the time and material handy,,,I
might like to do some tests..

...


How many boats have the ready provision for emerg. steering? I only
know of one production boat as such. Why dont they have that, is
almost common sense, (common sense isnt so common:{} )
Most are of a homebrew design. either as foresights or as required.

My boat has two (potentially) independent rudder systems, with
provision for an emergency tiller on either. My previous boat, and
many quality boats with wheel steering, has provision for an emergency
tiller.

Yes, but not rudder....

I have seen a "homebrew" pindel and grudeon rudder that worked like a
cassette. The cassette was inserted to the grudeons and then the
rudder through the cassette - very cool.....so easy and cheap to make.
By using this cassette method is ingenious,,,,as trying to install a
rudder in full on rough conditions might be more of a challenge.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what the value of true emergency steering
is, given that 99% of boats almost never leave SeaTow range. Would a
Catalina 30 buyer pay a few thousand extra for this capability? Wind
vane self steering is useful for long distance passage makers, and for
them, a fully redundant backup rudder is handy, but this is an after
market issue.

Frankly, if I were building a boat specifically for long distance
passages, I'd want to minimize the chance of damage, with a heavy duty
rudder mounted on skeg.

Would that be "balanced"? If so How?

Well thats really another topic "rudders and keels".

I see a lot of spade rudders out there....at least the boats I am
noticing.






I have researched virtually all the sailing homebrew material
available:

...

The common aspect of of most of the "home brew" techniques is that
they have been proven worthless. For example, how many home built
ferro-cement boats are still sailing?


That is an exception example.

No, that's right up there with poly sails and pvc davits. And don't
forget pepper in bottom paint.

Havent seen the pvc davits anywhere.....yet;}}

...

Stitch and glue is a homebrew tech. and is accepted as a commonly
acceptable tech. etc.

This is one exception I was thinking of. However, its only useful for
small boats.


Home many blue poly sails do you see?

Well, not many. But they are mostly on 18footer or less. Ususally the
stitch and glue dingys.... but the knowledge and tech. could be
applied in certain situations... an those that have used them would
have spent more on sails than in the construction of their boat.


If your goal is to prove that that you can make a mediocre (at best)
boat for pocket change, fine. And I'll even admit that the first boat
I built had a sail made from an old bedsheet.

However, sailcloth is about a buck a square foot. Spinnaker cloth is
even less. So what do you save? 50 bucks? If I'm going to sit at
the sewing machine for a few hours, plus put in a mess of grommets,
I'd rather spend the $50 and have something I'm proud of.

Actually I dont think many of the polys are sewn,,,,and your going to
like the fact that some use carpet tape.





There are a few notable exceptions, but most of the home brew building
materials are junk. Why don't you see blue poly dodgers? Because
most people understand that the materials are only about 20% of the
value of the project. Most of the value is in the craft of assembly
and finish. Why would anyone use third rate materials for something
that takes a lot of manual labor?


Yep. This can be applied to production boats. Refer to Bob Pascoe
website.

Actually, I'd say that most of Pascoe's horrible examples are a big
step up from poly dodgers.

I would not use poly on a dodger...never said I would.

The point I was making was regarding you statement "Why would anyone
use third rate materials for something that takes a lot of manual
labor?" Was the fact of the state of build of many production boats
apply to your comment and can not just be directed at homebrew
projects.


I will admit that I chartered an Irwin for
a season (that was the Hurricane Bob boat) and it was such a POS that
my subsequent two boats were from high quality manufacturers.


...

I have heard and seen many boaters using PVC and blue poly tarps for
their winter covers. Now the tarps may only last a season or two, but
no one, that I know of has had an issue with the PVC supports other
than the tech. they used to secure them to the boat. Some tent poles
are made of fiberglass and it is amazing how much they bend, I haven
seen or heard of one breaking but thats not to say they dont. Look at
the condition on Everest, and the material that are used, sort of like
a fixed sail on land.

Well, of course a blue poly tarp is not a bad winter sail cover, I've
even used them for a few seasons. But isn't that a case of using a
material for it's actual designed purpose? Most shrink wrap frames
around here are built from very cheap wood strapping. PVC, conduit,
or almost anything else is a step up.

Mic wrote:

In
many locations, the average summer wind could be offered as proof that
sailing is physically impossible!


I really cant think of any, where would you suggest?

The average wind in Myrtle Beach in August is 4 knots.


Yep. The reputation of the tasman sea is an example or the north
atlantic. But the trade winds are different and the pacific "milk
run"...

In all of those cases you'll encounter winds stronger than your
implied average.


Yep thats why I mentioned them, and other than the "horn" and the tip
of south africa, well the artics too...relative to the vastness of the
ocean, I dont consider that alot.

But do you actually have a point to this?


How many people do you see go out when it is 30 knots sustained. Near
zero.


This is total nonsense. While I don't often leave the dock in high
winds, at least once a year I find myself out in strong winds. Last
year's episode had lighter wind than our normal max - it was about 30
but on the stern - it was the 10+ foot confused sea that annoyed my
wife.

And for a dodger, it isn't the wind while sailing that counts, the
wind at the dock can be just as bad. A few days after I launched this
year we had gusts to about 50.


....



No, obviously at some point it is prudent to remove the canvas.
However, you made comments that seemed to imply that wind over 21
knots is so uncommon as to be not worth considering.


No actually that is what is the most worth considering, but am of the
opinion that it is not a frequent stat., "sustained" winds over 21
knots, geographic exceptions noted.

I have no idea what you're trying to say ...

....

How many boats have the ready provision for emerg. steering? I only
know of one production boat as such. Why dont they have that, is
almost common sense, (common sense isnt so common:{} )
Most are of a homebrew design. either as foresights or as required.

My boat has two (potentially) independent rudder systems, with
provision for an emergency tiller on either. My previous boat, and
many quality boats with wheel steering, has provision for an emergency
tiller.


Yes, but not rudder....

As I said, my current boat has two complete systems, including two
rudders.



I have seen a "homebrew" pindel and grudeon rudder that worked like a
cassette. The cassette was inserted to the grudeons and then the
rudder through the cassette - very cool.....so easy and cheap to make.
By using this cassette method is ingenious,,,,as trying to install a
rudder in full on rough conditions might be more of a challenge.

Don't a number of dinghies use this arrangement?


Frankly, if I were building a boat specifically for long distance
passages, I'd want to minimize the chance of damage, with a heavy duty
rudder mounted on skeg.


Would that be "balanced"? If so How?

Nope, it wouldn't be balanced. That's a nice attribute, but not
necessary. If you're considering scenarios where you need to replace
the rudder underway, you probably need a protected rudder more than a
balanced one.


Well thats really another topic "rudders and keels".

I see a lot of spade rudders out there....at least the boats I am
noticing.

But its leads you to worrying about emergency rudders. This is not
the path of simplicity.


No, that's right up there with poly sails and pvc davits. And don't
forget pepper in bottom paint.

Havent seen the pvc davits anywhere.....yet;}}


Fortunately, they haven't caught on, but I've seen a few.


....
However, sailcloth is about a buck a square foot. Spinnaker cloth is
even less. So what do you save? 50 bucks? If I'm going to sit at
the sewing machine for a few hours, plus put in a mess of grommets,
I'd rather spend the $50 and have something I'm proud of.


Actually I dont think many of the polys are sewn,,,,and your going to
like the fact that some use carpet tape.

A real class act. But I understand. I've owned an old VW bug that was
built out of parts salvaged from several bugs, a Karmann Ghia and an
old Porsche. I've also owned a new Mercedes. Both had their charm,
but believe me, the Mercedes was a lot more enjoyable to drive,
especially if I had to drive more than walking distance from my apartment.




Actually, I'd say that most of Pascoe's horrible examples are a big
step up from poly dodgers.


I would not use poly on a dodger...never said I would.

The point I was making was regarding you statement "Why would anyone
use third rate materials for something that takes a lot of manual
labor?" Was the fact of the state of build of many production boats
apply to your comment and can not just be directed at homebrew
projects.


OK. Are you claiming to because some builders use crap you're
entitled to do the same? As you wish.

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:45:12 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Mic wrote:

In
many locations, the average summer wind could be offered as proof that
sailing is physically impossible!


I really cant think of any, where would you suggest?

The average wind in Myrtle Beach in August is 4 knots.


Yep. The reputation of the tasman sea is an example or the north
atlantic. But the trade winds are different and the pacific "milk
run"...

In all of those cases you'll encounter winds stronger than your
implied average.


Yep thats why I mentioned them, and other than the "horn" and the tip
of south africa, well the artics too...relative to the vastness of the
ocean, I dont consider that alot.

But do you actually have a point to this?

yes the generalization of average winds as noted would not necessary
apply to these regions.


How many people do you see go out when it is 30 knots sustained. Near
zero.


This is total nonsense. While I don't often leave the dock in high
winds, at least once a year I find myself out in strong winds. Last
year's episode had lighter wind than our normal max - it was about 30
but on the stern - it was the 10+ foot confused sea that annoyed my
wife.

There is a big difference in being out when 30 knots of wind occur and
going out when there is that much wind, it not nonsense...it is fact.
As you said yourself you dont often go out in such conditions. And
many in pleasure boating and even passage making dont either.


And for a dodger, it isn't the wind while sailing that counts, the
wind at the dock can be just as bad.

yep

A few days after I launched this
year we had gusts to about 50.


...



No, obviously at some point it is prudent to remove the canvas.
However, you made comments that seemed to imply that wind over 21
knots is so uncommon as to be not worth considering.


No actually that is what is the most worth considering, but am of the
opinion that it is not a frequent stat., "sustained" winds over 21
knots, geographic exceptions noted.

I have no idea what you're trying to say ...

Simple I take the "statement" as reasonable fact based on experience
and practically every cruiser log published on the net.
That the average sustained winds are usually less than about 21 knots,
certain geographically noted exceptions excluded.


...

How many boats have the ready provision for emerg. steering? I only
know of one production boat as such. Why dont they have that, is
almost common sense, (common sense isnt so common:{} )
Most are of a homebrew design. either as foresights or as required.

My boat has two (potentially) independent rudder systems, with
provision for an emergency tiller on either. My previous boat, and
many quality boats with wheel steering, has provision for an emergency
tiller.


Yes, but not rudder....

As I said, my current boat has two complete systems, including two
rudders.

How are they configured? Are they production original, is one a
homebrew or off the shelf?




I have seen a "homebrew" pindel and grudeon rudder that worked like a
cassette. The cassette was inserted to the grudeons and then the
rudder through the cassette - very cool.....so easy and cheap to make.
By using this cassette method is ingenious,,,,as trying to install a
rudder in full on rough conditions might be more of a challenge.

Don't a number of dinghies use this arrangement?

Maybe but not what I have seen? This arrangement was not on a dingy.


Frankly, if I were building a boat specifically for long distance
passages, I'd want to minimize the chance of damage, with a heavy duty
rudder mounted on skeg.


Would that be "balanced"? If so How?

Nope, it wouldn't be balanced. That's a nice attribute, but not
necessary. If you're considering scenarios where you need to replace
the rudder underway, you probably need a protected rudder more than a
balanced one.

I really need to create another topic on the issue of rudder and
keels. As I am looking at 2 significantly (keel and rudder)
different boats. A grampian 26 and a bayfield 25 and will be looking
for opinions from which to help make a decision.


Well thats really another topic "rudders and keels".

I see a lot of spade rudders out there....at least the boats I am
noticing.

But its leads you to worrying about emergency rudders. This is not
the path of simplicity.

Not necessarly. Alot of factors of necessary force on a tiller has to
do with sail balance and rudder design, current,wind, etc/



No, that's right up there with poly sails and pvc davits. And don't
forget pepper in bottom paint.

Havent seen the pvc davits anywhere.....yet;}}


Fortunately, they haven't caught on, but I've seen a few.


...
However, sailcloth is about a buck a square foot. Spinnaker cloth is
even less. So what do you save? 50 bucks? If I'm going to sit at
the sewing machine for a few hours, plus put in a mess of grommets,
I'd rather spend the $50 and have something I'm proud of.


Actually I dont think many of the polys are sewn,,,,and your going to
like the fact that some use carpet tape.

A real class act. But I understand. I've owned an old VW bug that was
built out of parts salvaged from several bugs, a Karmann Ghia and an
old Porsche. I've also owned a new Mercedes. Both had their charm,
but believe me, the Mercedes was a lot more enjoyable to drive,
especially if I had to drive more than walking distance from my apartment.




Actually, I'd say that most of Pascoe's horrible examples are a big
step up from poly dodgers.


I would not use poly on a dodger...never said I would.

The point I was making was regarding you statement "Why would anyone
use third rate materials for something that takes a lot of manual
labor?" Was the fact of the state of build of many production boats
apply to your comment and can not just be directed at homebrew
projects.


OK. Are you claiming to because some builders use crap you're
entitled to do the same? As you wish.

No. The thread was put out for opinions, a good thing. Come to think
of it no one suggested any possible tests of methods or materials, I
think should one proceed with such material, tests
would be inorder. Design could be the determining factor in
reasonable success or failure. As Glenn pointed out the strenght of a
curve would be greater than a square....- not possible with abs.

Mic wrote:

But do you actually have a point to this?

yes the generalization of average winds as noted would not necessary
apply to these regions.


My point was the the generalization of average winds applies to very
little when considering how strong something has to be.


How many people do you see go out when it is 30 knots sustained. Near
zero.


This is total nonsense. While I don't often leave the dock in high
winds, at least once a year I find myself out in strong winds. Last
year's episode had lighter wind than our normal max - it was about 30
but on the stern - it was the 10+ foot confused sea that annoyed my
wife.


There is a big difference in being out when 30 knots of wind occur and
going out when there is that much wind, it not nonsense...it is fact.
As you said yourself you dont often go out in such conditions. And
many in pleasure boating and even passage making dont either.


There is a difference in the intent, but 30 knots is 30 knots
regardless of the intent. This is a discussion about design, not
intent. While daysailors have the option of never leaving the dock
unless the short term forecast is perfect, passage makers have made an
commitment to take whatever the sea offers.

Boats must be designed to the most severe weather they might
reasonably encounter. For this consideration, the "average wind" is
meaningless.

So what would you think is a reasonable design point? In all of the
larger boats I've owned, I've been out in 40+ knots, anchored in 50+,
and had 60+ at the dock. All of them have made Atlantic crossings
(not by me!), including the 25 footer.

There is, of course, a flip side to this. I have friends who bought
heavy weather boats for the security they offer, then found its not
worth raising sail until its blowing 20; others have light air boats
that need to be reefed above 15. But this is a somewhat different
design issue.

....

Simple I take the "statement" as reasonable fact based on experience
and practically every cruiser log published on the net.
That the average sustained winds are usually less than about 21 knots,
certain geographically noted exceptions excluded.


Yes, this is true. Just not relevant to the discussion.



As I said, my current boat has two complete systems, including two
rudders.


How are they configured? Are they production original, is one a
homebrew or off the shelf?


Off the shelf, standard configuration, 100 built, plus another 100 of
related designs. On most boats of my design, the rudder is a balanced
spade, and I've know of one case where one of the rudders got jammed
and had to be disconnected. My boat, and about a third of the newer
sisterships, has a skeg hung rudder. Handling under sail suffers a
bit, though I'm not sure its really a downside, since I don't use it
for "round the buoys" racing.

BTW, many of the other boats I considered had similar setups. The
sailboat next to me in the yard had twin rudders, and one of the other
sailboats on my dock, of a completely different style, also has twin
rudders.


....
I see a lot of spade rudders out there....at least the boats I am
noticing.

But its leads you to worrying about emergency rudders. This is not
the path of simplicity.


Not necessarly. Alot of factors of necessary force on a tiller has to
do with sail balance and rudder design, current,wind, etc/


Yes, you have to look at the whole package. My previous boat had a
rig that was prone to being unbalanced and overpowering, so I was glad
to have a balanced spade. Before that, I had a full keel that tracked
"on rails" so the spade wasn't needed.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:45:32 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Mic wrote:

But do you actually have a point to this?

yes the generalization of average winds as noted would not necessary
apply to these regions.


My point was the the generalization of average winds applies to very
little when considering how strong something has to be.

Good point, but to then figure that it has to be bullit proof is it
reasonable for it to be built to withstand what max force? Where do
you draw the line? That is my point.


How many people do you see go out when it is 30 knots sustained. Near
zero.


This is total nonsense. While I don't often leave the dock in high
winds, at least once a year I find myself out in strong winds. Last
year's episode had lighter wind than our normal max - it was about 30
but on the stern - it was the 10+ foot confused sea that annoyed my
wife.


There is a big difference in being out when 30 knots of wind occur and
going out when there is that much wind, it not nonsense...it is fact.
As you said yourself you dont often go out in such conditions. And
many in pleasure boating and even passage making dont either.


There is a difference in the intent, but 30 knots is 30 knots
regardless of the intent. This is a discussion about design, not
intent. While daysailors have the option of never leaving the dock
unless the short term forecast is perfect, passage makers have made an
commitment to take whatever the sea offers.

Yes if they are already out in it, but in the logs of Bumfuzzle on
there way from panama to galapagoes in about 30 knots they were
beating to the weather and wave, they made the decision to turn and
run with the waves for the nearest port in SA.

http://www.bumfuzzle.com/LogsDates.htm

Also if you read bill_dietrich logs at:
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dietri...agnoliaLog.txt
Currently in Bahamas, you will see how many boats leave an anchorage
and them shortly return...

Bill has an excellent site at
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dietri...boat.html#plan

It is mostly a collection of thought of a huge amount of sailors
collected over years from various sources....

Boats must be designed to the most severe weather they might
reasonably encounter. For this consideration, the "average wind" is
meaningless.

Right average wind is meaningless, its the forces of the sea, as was
pointed out in Glenn post. If most of the time the weather is not
greater than 21 knots what do you reasonable design for? Do you
design for the 7% of the time at the winds are above 21 knots? To
design anthing nautical for just 21 knots would be foolish, I never
suggested that, but rather reiterated a stat. I believe to be
reasonable true.

So what would you think is a reasonable design point? In all of the
larger boats I've owned, I've been out in 40+ knots, anchored in 50+,
and had 60+ at the dock. All of them have made Atlantic crossings
(not by me!), including the 25 footer.

I dont think I could answer that question, although in many instances
builder and designers have lowered that point, when compared with
earlier GRP production boats, but a much debatable subject.

Some boats are designed with specific usage. But some near coastal
craft have been taken on circumnavigations -blue water.


There is, of course, a flip side to this. I have friends who bought
heavy weather boats for the security they offer, then found its not
worth raising sail until its blowing 20; others have light air boats
that need to be reefed above 15. But this is a somewhat different
design issue.

Yep, that is somewhat of the issue I have in deciding
between 2 boats.

...

Simple I take the "statement" as reasonable fact based on experience
and practically every cruiser log published on the net.
That the average sustained winds are usually less than about 21 knots,
certain geographically noted exceptions excluded.


Yes, this is true. Just not relevant to the discussion.

????But this discussion always seems to focus around this issue.



As I said, my current boat has two complete systems, including two
rudders.


How are they configured? Are they production original, is one a
homebrew or off the shelf?


Off the shelf, standard configuration, 100 built, plus another 100 of
related designs. On most boats of my design, the rudder is a balanced
spade, and I've know of one case where one of the rudders got jammed
and had to be disconnected. My boat, and about a third of the newer
sisterships, has a skeg hung rudder. Handling under sail suffers a
bit, though I'm not sure its really a downside, since I don't use it
for "round the buoys" racing.

Are you a boat designer?

BTW, many of the other boats I considered had similar setups. The
sailboat next to me in the yard had twin rudders, and one of the other
sailboats on my dock, of a completely different style, also has twin
rudders.

How are the twin rudders configured? What make of boat? I have seen a
mono with a spade rudder and a transom hung one as well but this was
an after design and more based on a emerg. 2nd rudder.


...
I see a lot of spade rudders out there....at least the boats I am
noticing.

But its leads you to worrying about emergency rudders. This is not
the path of simplicity.


Not necessarly. Alot of factors of necessary force on a tiller has to
do with sail balance and rudder design, current,wind, etc/


Yes, you have to look at the whole package. My previous boat had a
rig that was prone to being unbalanced and overpowering, so I was glad
to have a balanced spade. Before that, I had a full keel that tracked
"on rails" so the spade wasn't needed.