I'm of mixed emotions on this one....if there is a simple answer I overlooked vs
not.....

I removed the port genoa track due to leaks. I found that there were two
overlapping holes for each mounting bolt. I think it was a factory error.
I've drilled the holes oversize, and will fill them with epoxy...when it quits raining.

Now the question: What is the best way to remount the track and seal it?
The aft end of the track has a pretty good bend in it when mounted, although
it's nearly straight when off.
Should I start at one end, positioning, drilling, and sealing as I go?
Is filling the bolt hole with sealent then inserting the bolt sufficient?
If I try to smear the underside of the track, I'll just smear sealent all over
the deck while messing with it. Also, as soon as I take the positioning
pressure off the track, the mounting bolt will lay against one side of the hole,
which wories me a bit.

Would it be better to use a few bolts to position the track, then drill the rest?

How would you guys do it?

Thanks,
Norm B

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:35:06 GMT, engsol
wrote:

How would you guys do it?

============================

I've been through that process, and to be perfectly honest have not
found an ideal approach other than pre-bending the track in some way.

If I had it to do over again I would drill the holes one at a time,
bending the track as I went, and use no bedding compound at all on the
first pass. Mask off the area on each side of the track with tape to
prevent squeeze out from getting on the deck. I would then pull all
the bolts and take the track up. Next I would lightly counter sink
the top of each hole to create a space for the bedding compound to
form a small O-ring around the bolt as you tighten down.

Remount the track and bolts with the track about 1/2 inch or so above
the deck, leaving just enough space for the tip of your bedding
compound tube. Circle each bolt with a small ring of compound while
the entire track is still off the deck. Finish up by pressing the
track and bolts down one by one, but DO NOT TWIST the bolts. Hammer
them straight down if necessary. Tighten the bolts from below deck
only, using someone topside with a large screwdriver to prevent
twisting. Ideally the screwdriver should have a square shank with
vise grips applied to increase leverage.

The objective is to not let the bedding compound be turned away from
the threads so that the O-ring effect remains intact as the fasteners
are tightened down. Allow the bedding compound to skin over but
remove the masking tape before it completely sets up.

Thoroughly clean up the underside of the track and the deck with
WD-40. A light coating of WD-40 on the underside of the track before
the second installation will make the clean up easier. Run some
hardware up and down the track to find any sticky spots before the
bedding compound sets up.

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 01:08:20 -0400,
Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:35:06 GMT, engsol
wrote:

How would you guys do it?

============================

I've been through that process, and to be perfectly honest have not
found an ideal approach other than pre-bending the track in some way.

If I had it to do over again I would drill the holes one at a time,
bending the track as I went, and use no bedding compound at all on the
first pass. Mask off the area on each side of the track with tape to
prevent squeeze out from getting on the deck. I would then pull all
the bolts and take the track up. Next I would lightly counter sink
the top of each hole to create a space for the bedding compound to
form a small O-ring around the bolt as you tighten down.

Remount the track and bolts with the track about 1/2 inch or so above
the deck, leaving just enough space for the tip of your bedding
compound tube. Circle each bolt with a small ring of compound while
the entire track is still off the deck. Finish up by pressing the
track and bolts down one by one, but DO NOT TWIST the bolts. Hammer
them straight down if necessary. Tighten the bolts from below deck
only, using someone topside with a large screwdriver to prevent
twisting. Ideally the screwdriver should have a square shank with
vise grips applied to increase leverage.

The objective is to not let the bedding compound be turned away from
the threads so that the O-ring effect remains intact as the fasteners
are tightened down. Allow the bedding compound to skin over but
remove the masking tape before it completely sets up.

Thoroughly clean up the underside of the track and the deck with
WD-40. A light coating of WD-40 on the underside of the track before
the second installation will make the clean up easier. Run some
hardware up and down the track to find any sticky spots before the
bedding compound sets up.


What about just using orings? should be easy enough to size, and placing
them on the bolts, before laying the track down (the second time, doing
the drilling one at a time sounds like a good idea to me) Neoprene
orings should survive well, but maybe I am missing something?


--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
"Some days violence is just a nice quick solution to a problem that
would need thought, planning and actual work to do justice to."
--Wayne Pascoe

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 00:15:19 -0700, Jim Richardson
wrote:

What about just using orings? should be easy enough to size, and placing
them on the bolts, before laying the track down (the second time, doing
the drilling one at a time sounds like a good idea to me) Neoprene
orings should survive well, but maybe I am missing something?

=============================

I guess anything is possible but I've never seen it done. From a
structural stand point it is important that the track end up firmly
clamped, flat on the deck. That might be hard to achieve using actual
o-rings.

Thanks very much Wayne. Your approach is very close to the one
I thought of after posting the original question. I think I'll give it a go.
If need be, I can always pull the track off, and drill even larger holes,
and do it over...
Norm B

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 01:08:20 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:35:06 GMT, engsol
wrote:

How would you guys do it?

============================

I've been through that process, and to be perfectly honest have not
found an ideal approach other than pre-bending the track in some way.

If I had it to do over again I would drill the holes one at a time,
bending the track as I went, and use no bedding compound at all on the
first pass. Mask off the area on each side of the track with tape to
prevent squeeze out from getting on the deck. I would then pull all
the bolts and take the track up. Next I would lightly counter sink
the top of each hole to create a space for the bedding compound to
form a small O-ring around the bolt as you tighten down.

Remount the track and bolts with the track about 1/2 inch or so above
the deck, leaving just enough space for the tip of your bedding
compound tube. Circle each bolt with a small ring of compound while
the entire track is still off the deck. Finish up by pressing the
track and bolts down one by one, but DO NOT TWIST the bolts. Hammer
them straight down if necessary. Tighten the bolts from below deck
only, using someone topside with a large screwdriver to prevent
twisting. Ideally the screwdriver should have a square shank with
vise grips applied to increase leverage.

The objective is to not let the bedding compound be turned away from
the threads so that the O-ring effect remains intact as the fasteners
are tightened down. Allow the bedding compound to skin over but
remove the masking tape before it completely sets up.

Thoroughly clean up the underside of the track and the deck with
WD-40. A light coating of WD-40 on the underside of the track before
the second installation will make the clean up easier. Run some
hardware up and down the track to find any sticky spots before the
bedding compound sets up.

Jim Richardson wrote:

What about just using orings? should be easy enough to size, and placing
them on the bolts, before laying the track down (the second time, doing
the drilling one at a time sounds like a good idea to me) Neoprene
orings should survive well, but maybe I am missing something?

I've thought about that as well. It seems to me that using caulk to try to seal
something that moves around even a little bit is a temporary solution at best.
I've now got numerous small leaks in the deck of my boat which showed up only 2-3
years after being re-bedded by the PO. It would be nice to fix these in a way
that didn't need to be redone every few years.

I don't have a solution right now, other than to point to the sealer washers around
the screws on my metal roof. A roof is exposed to terrific heat during the summer and
it gets flexed slightly by the wind, and even hail yet maintains a watertight seal for
decades.

And Wayne: The fact that boats are usually not done that way _can_ be an indication that it
isn't a good idea, but...

Anyone have experience with using a sealer washer to seal around the bolts and screws that
pierce the deck on their boat?

Don W.

On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:23:48 GMT, Don W wrote:

Jim Richardson wrote:

What about just using orings? should be easy enough to size, and placing
them on the bolts, before laying the track down (the second time, doing
the drilling one at a time sounds like a good idea to me) Neoprene
orings should survive well, but maybe I am missing something?

I've thought about that as well. It seems to me that using caulk to try to seal
something that moves around even a little bit is a temporary solution at best.
I've now got numerous small leaks in the deck of my boat which showed up only 2-3
years after being re-bedded by the PO. It would be nice to fix these in a way
that didn't need to be redone every few years.

I don't have a solution right now, other than to point to the sealer washers around
the screws on my metal roof. A roof is exposed to terrific heat during the summer and
it gets flexed slightly by the wind, and even hail yet maintains a watertight seal for
decades.

And Wayne: The fact that boats are usually not done that way _can_ be an indication that it
isn't a good idea, but...

Anyone have experience with using a sealer washer to seal around the bolts and screws that
pierce the deck on their boat?

Don W.

Thought provoking topic.
The idea of using O rings may be a good one. I think the key would be the
installation. Just sqeezing the O ring betwen track and deck doesn't (to me)
seem quite the right method, but I can't explain why.

Would counter-boring the hole to a depth of 1/2 the diameter of the O ring to
provide a "seat" for the ring work? If all the componets were sized properly,
I can see the O ring creating pressure on the track, the sides of the hole, and
the bolt, with the deck carrying the load of the track.

Would coating the O ring with a bit of waterproof grease before installation help?

One problem I see with my suggestion....counter-boring the O ring recess
straight....but then, I wonder if a bit of "tilt" would really matter?

I may divide the track in thirds, and test a few things. It's only water grin
Norm B

Norm,

O-Rings might work, but if you use them, I'd consider a light countersink profile
instead of a counterbore (forestener bit type). The angle should cause the o-ring
to squeeze around the bolt/screw as the o-ring is forced into the countersunk hole.
You just have to be careful not to countersink too deeply, or the o-ring won't be
pressured from the top. Your idea of some anti-corrosion greese sounds like a good
one as long as it is compatible with the o-ring material.

If you're careful about the o-ring material, it should last a long time, because it
will not be exposed to UV. Its protected by the metal on top of it.

I was actually thinking about using a flat sealing washer, and they might need the
counterbore ring to fit into.

hmm... interesting thoughts

Don W.



engsol wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:23:48 GMT, Don W wrote:


Jim Richardson wrote:


What about just using orings? should be easy enough to size, and placing
them on the bolts, before laying the track down (the second time, doing
the drilling one at a time sounds like a good idea to me) Neoprene
orings should survive well, but maybe I am missing something?

I've thought about that as well. It seems to me that using caulk to try to seal
something that moves around even a little bit is a temporary solution at best.
I've now got numerous small leaks in the deck of my boat which showed up only 2-3
years after being re-bedded by the PO. It would be nice to fix these in a way
that didn't need to be redone every few years.

I don't have a solution right now, other than to point to the sealer washers around
the screws on my metal roof. A roof is exposed to terrific heat during the summer and
it gets flexed slightly by the wind, and even hail yet maintains a watertight seal for
decades.

And Wayne: The fact that boats are usually not done that way _can_ be an indication that it
isn't a good idea, but...

Anyone have experience with using a sealer washer to seal around the bolts and screws that
pierce the deck on their boat?

Don W.


Thought provoking topic.
The idea of using O rings may be a good one. I think the key would be the
installation. Just sqeezing the O ring betwen track and deck doesn't (to me)
seem quite the right method, but I can't explain why.

Would counter-boring the hole to a depth of 1/2 the diameter of the O ring to
provide a "seat" for the ring work? If all the componets were sized properly,
I can see the O ring creating pressure on the track, the sides of the hole, and
the bolt, with the deck carrying the load of the track.

Would coating the O ring with a bit of waterproof grease before installation help?

One problem I see with my suggestion....counter-boring the O ring recess
straight....but then, I wonder if a bit of "tilt" would really matter?

I may divide the track in thirds, and test a few things. It's only water grin
Norm B

On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:30:08 GMT, engsol
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:23:48 GMT, Don W wrote:

Jim Richardson wrote:

What about just using orings? should be easy enough to size, and placing
them on the bolts, before laying the track down (the second time, doing
the drilling one at a time sounds like a good idea to me) Neoprene
orings should survive well, but maybe I am missing something?

I've thought about that as well. It seems to me that using caulk to try to seal
something that moves around even a little bit is a temporary solution at best.
I've now got numerous small leaks in the deck of my boat which showed up only 2-3
years after being re-bedded by the PO. It would be nice to fix these in a way
that didn't need to be redone every few years.

I don't have a solution right now, other than to point to the sealer washers around
the screws on my metal roof. A roof is exposed to terrific heat during the summer and
it gets flexed slightly by the wind, and even hail yet maintains a watertight seal for
decades.

And Wayne: The fact that boats are usually not done that way _can_ be an indication that it
isn't a good idea, but...

Anyone have experience with using a sealer washer to seal around the bolts and screws that
pierce the deck on their boat?

Don W.

Thought provoking topic.
The idea of using O rings may be a good one. I think the key would be the
installation. Just sqeezing the O ring betwen track and deck doesn't (to me)
seem quite the right method, but I can't explain why.

Would counter-boring the hole to a depth of 1/2 the diameter of the O ring to
provide a "seat" for the ring work? If all the componets were sized properly,
I can see the O ring creating pressure on the track, the sides of the hole, and
the bolt, with the deck carrying the load of the track.

Would coating the O ring with a bit of waterproof grease before installation help?

One problem I see with my suggestion....counter-boring the O ring recess
straight....but then, I wonder if a bit of "tilt" would really matter?

I may divide the track in thirds, and test a few things. It's only water grin
Norm B

In engineering usage, the rule of thumb for an o-ring fit with no
slip/rotation required is to machine the sidewalls of the groove to
nominal o-ring thickness, and to machine the depth of the groove to
90% of the o-ring's thickness. This will expand the o-ring material to
occupy half the airspace inside the groove when it is fully compressed

Brian Whatcott Altus, OK