Now you're just in fantasy land, jaxie.


JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, think about if for a few weeks, ask your wife for help, then think
about it for several weeks more. maybe -- just maybe -- you might come to
understand the what you said. let me explain it to you

*you* said there is a wide difference in heights between Hampton Bay and
Peconic Bay.

If by "Hampton Bay" you mean Shinnecock Bay, yes I did. So does NOAA.
The tides in the two bays are roughly 4 hours out of sync, so the tide
difference will be substantial for much of the time. The difference can
be 2 feet or more. The two reference point I've used are Peconic Bay,
near the northern end of the canal, and near the Ponquogue Bridge, a
mile or so from the southern end.



Q Is this always?

A Obviously not, for if one were always higher than the other the water would
flow only one direction and that is not the case. (it would also require a
lock in the canal)

They obviously alternate - one side is higher, then the other.


Q If the water on the HB side is higher than the PB side, why is that?

A Because the tide is flooding

Flooding yes, but not necessarily through the Shinnecock Canal.
Shinnecock Bay is connected to the ocean through several inlets on the
south side of Long Island - it would rise and fall regardless of the
current through the canal.



Q If the tide is flooding then the height difference must be enough to require
a lock, no?

A No. In fact Peconic Bay has no lock and is open to the Atlantic Ocean to
the east and the Peconic Bay is tidal water.

A height difference does not "require" a lock. There are serious height
differences in a variety of places where there is not lock. Hell Gate
and Cape Cod Canal are two areas that have major differences across a
few miles, and there is no lock.

However, when the current is strong, it can be desirable to put a lock
in to stop the flow and allow boat traffic more often. Apparently that
is what was decided for the Shinnecock Canal, because there is a lock there.

BTW, here's a quote from an early proposal. For financial reasons, the
lock was not added until some years after the tidal gates. However, the
need was recognized early:
"A lock should be constructed at each end of the canal to retain the
water at the elevation of high tide, and make slack water between the
bays. The tide rises at this place about three feet, and as there are
about three hours’ difference in the time of high water in the bays, the
locks will be necessary to prevent a rapid current in the canal, and
will permit the passage of vessels at all times of tide."
http://www.history.rochester.edu/can...06/Chap12.html



Q Then Hampton Bay must not be tidal water, right?

A Hampton Bay is tidal water.


Again, do you mean Shinnecock Bay?

Q So, why the lock?

A No lock, the water height difference is not enough but to cause ordinary
tidal flow.


Than how do you explain the picture of the lock? Good Grief, you're
arguing that it makes no sense to put a lock there when in fact they
did! I posted the picture of it - here it is again:

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

How do you explain the picture of the repair to the lock gates, just two
years ago? If they were to remain open, why would the county spend
several million to repair them?

And what do you mean by "height difference is not enough but to cause
ordinary tidal flow"? What is "ordinary tidal flow" and how much
height difference cause that?




Q So why the gates?

A To reduce the saltier HB water from entering PB in large quantities.

Wrong! The gates were constructed to allow salt water from Peconic Bay
to enter the fresh water Shinnecock Bay in an effort to clean it since
it had become polluted. They did not want the polluted water to return
north. The Shinnecock Inlet did not exist (despite several efforts to
create it) until the the hurricane of 1938.

Now, the situation is reversed, and Shinnecock Bay is salty, and Peconic
Bay is fresher and polluted. This is why there have been proposals to
reverse the gates. This is also why I granted that they may have left
the locks open. However, although this is a possibility, I've seen no
evidence of it.

Actually, before the hurricane opened Shinnecock Inlet, the gates were
left open much of the time, and flow was allowed in both directions.
After the inlet was opened, the gates were closed to keep the water
higher in Shinnecock Bay, to prevent silting in of the inlet.



Q Why is PB less saltier?

A PB has freshwater rivers flowing into it.

It may be less salty now, but it wasn't when the gates were built.



Q So, Hampton Bay must have the same water level, less tidal difference, as
PC.
A Of course. If HB water were always higher the canal would need a lock to
move boats. If PB water were always higher there would be no need to worry
about salty HB water from entering.

And yet, the published tide tables show there is often a two foot
difference between Peconic Bay and Shinnecock Bay. Are you claiming
those are wrong too?

BTW, here's a quote from a recent magazine article:

"This problem [erosion in the canal] was solved by building tide gates
and, in 1919, a lock in the canal. The one-way tide gates -- pushed open
by high tides running south from Peconic Bay and pushed closed by high
tides running from the opposite direction -- ensure that enough water
flushes out of Peconic Bay into Shinnecock Bay to carry all the sand and
silt that would otherwise accumulate and block the canal. The lock,
rebuilt about 30 years ago, allows boats to be floated up or down to
meet the differing water levels at either end."
http://www.newsday.com/community/gui...ory-navigation




Q So, what is the issue

A jeffies thinks because locks have two gates anything with two gates is a
lock.

Isn't that what a lock is? A chamber with gates at either end? Every
comment on the facility describes it as a lock. Why do you insist it is
not?



Q Is jaxie a fumb duck?

A Yes


At least there's something we can all agree with!

[sigh] attempting discussion with jeffies is like attempting discussion with
junior high school dropout TV minister.

Reading your posts jax is getting worse and worse. Get some
professional help jax. Spend less time on the
computer and more time in therapy. You would be a happier person and we
would all benefit. I have seen your photos
and suggest you may be having a midlife crisis of some sort.
Condescending prick !

JAXAshby wrote:

[sigh] attempting discussion with jeffies is like attempting discussion with
junior high school dropout TV minister.

in other words, jay, you were unable to understand the posts. thanks for
telling us.

From: JayVee
Date: 11/26/2004 5:54 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Reading your posts jax is getting worse and worse. Get some
professional help jax. Spend less time on the
computer and more time in therapy. You would be a happier person and we
would all benefit. I have seen your photos
and suggest you may be having a midlife crisis of some sort.
Condescending prick !

JAXAshby wrote:

[sigh] attempting discussion with jeffies is like attempting discussion
with
junior high school dropout TV minister.

Everyone understood the posts, except you, jaxie. After months of
talking about this you revealed that you didn't understand how a lock
even worked, nor did you even know which bodies of water were connected
by the Shinnecock Canal!


JAXAshby wrote:
in other words, jay, you were unable to understand the posts. thanks for
telling us.


From: JayVee
Date: 11/26/2004 5:54 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Reading your posts jax is getting worse and worse. Get some
professional help jax. Spend less time on the
computer and more time in therapy. You would be a happier person and we
would all benefit. I have seen your photos
and suggest you may be having a midlife crisis of some sort.
Condescending prick !

JAXAshby wrote:


[sigh] attempting discussion with jeffies is like attempting discussion

with

junior high school dropout TV minister.

jeffies, *you* have never seen that canal and never will, not even from the
highway. what's more, your wife would never let you attempt to pass through it
because you would have to take your mast down at one end and put it back up
(something she would never allow you to do without professional help) and
because the water is shallow in the bay and the channel is too winding for you
to follow.

now, listen up jeffies. the height difference between the bays is slight the
current there never gets much above 4 knots either direction. That is less
current than either way in The Race (which has no locks and no gates across)
and less current either way than the East River (which has no locks and no
gates across) and about the current through the Verazano Narrows (which has no
locks and no gates across) and one hell of a lot less current than the Harlem
River (which has no locks and no gates across) and about the current of the
Cape Cod canal (which has no locks and no gates across) and just a bit more
current than Block Island Sound (which has no locks and no gates across).

Now, jeffies, just because some gate tender who may wish to argue for a pay
raise calls a lock a gate no more makes it a lock than some pretentious local
politician (looking for federal funds to maintain it?) calling a gate a lock.
The CG says it is not a lock and the C of Eng says it is not a lock. It is no
more a lock because it is shaped like a lock than a rubber doll is a woman
because it is shaped like a woman.

geesh, do you suppose that jeffies really does think an inflatable doll can
cook just because it is shaped like a woman? jeffies, how many orifaces does
an inflatable doll have? I have no experience with inflatable dolls and so
have to trust your experience on this.

From: Jeff Morris
Date: 11/26/2004 10:02 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

JAXAshby continues to prove he's a complete idiot:

jeffies, *you* have never seen that canal and never will, not even from the
highway.

You're right. I've never seen it. Neither have you.

what's more, your wife would never let you attempt to pass through it
because you would have to take your mast down at one end and put it back up
(something she would never allow you to do without professional help)

Do you mean like we did in the Erie Canal? Of course, we did have a
professional crane operator to put it back up - this is a serious sized
mast we have. However, the Oswego Marina has a manual crane that they
allow the amateurs to use.

and
because the water is shallow in the bay and the channel is too winding for you
to follow.

Yes - very shallow. Not like the shallow water we had in Florida Bay.
But we know you're terrified of shallow water - you actually claimed it
was impossible to sail down the Chesapeake without local knowledge!



now, listen up jeffies. the height difference between the bays is slight the
current there never gets much above 4 knots either direction.

Why do all of the tide table show the height difference is often two
feet?

Here's a web site -
http://www.tides.com/cgi-bin/tcweb.exe

Even in the more modest tides right now, the difference between the
north side of the canal (Peconic Bay, Shinnecock Canal) and the south
side (Ponquogue Bridge) is about 1.5 feet at 6PM today. The printouts I
saved from 2 weeks ago show a 2 foot difference for most of the day.

And remember, I posted a link to an old report that said the tidal
difference was often 5 feet before the inlet was cut in 1938. The lock
was built some twenty years before that.


That is less
current than either way in The Race (which has no locks and no gates across)
and less current either way than the East River (which has no locks and no
gates across) and about the current through the Verazano Narrows (which has no
locks and no gates across) and one hell of a lot less current than the Harlem
River (which has no locks and no gates across) and about the current of the
Cape Cod canal (which has no locks and no gates across) and just a bit more
current than Block Island Sound (which has no locks and no gates across).

Do you have a point here or are you just trying to show your stupidity?
The decision to put in locks is a combination of factors. For
example, a 4 knot current in a channel a mile wide is a little different
from 4 knots in a cut 100 feet wide.

However, the only reason I mentioned Hell Gate was to point out that
there are numerous places the have a tidal difference of several feet
across a few miles. You seemed to think this is physically impossible.


Now, jeffies, just because some gate tender who may wish to argue for a pay
raise calls a lock a gate no more makes it a lock than some pretentious local
politician (looking for federal funds to maintain it?) calling a gate a lock.

How about the Coast Pilot? What "hidden agenda" do they have?

The CG says it is not a lock

No. They say its a lock. If you want to claim different, post a link.
Otherwise you just an idiot.

and the C of Eng says it is not a lock.

No. the C of Eng says its a lock. I even posted a reference where they
described its action. Again, you're just too much of a coward to admit
you were lying in the beginning.

It is no
more a lock because it is shaped like a lock than a rubber doll is a woman
because it is shaped like a woman.

Finally you brought up a topic where you have some knowledge. We'll
have to take your word about that.

Its a lock because it was built as a lock and continues to function as a
lock. The fact that it is only used to when the current runs north
(as I pointed out in my first post) is not relevant.

notice how junior vee takes yet another straight posting and turns it to his
preference.

From: JayVee
Date: 11/26/2004 5:54 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Reading your posts jax is getting worse and worse. Get some
professional help jax. Spend less time on the
computer and more time in therapy. You would be a happier person and we
would all benefit. I have seen your photos
and suggest you may be having a midlife crisis of some sort.
Condescending prick !

JAXAshby wrote:

[sigh] attempting discussion with jeffies is like attempting discussion
with
junior high school dropout TV minister.

JAXAshby wrote:
[sigh] attempting discussion with jeffies is like attempting discussion with
junior high school dropout TV minister.


That's about as close as jaxie ever gets to admitting he was completely
wrong. Somehow I thought the picture of the lock might have been
enough to convince jaxie there really is a lock, but like a beheaded
chicken, jaxie always has to run in circles for a while longer ...