Now you're just in fantasy land, jaxie.


JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, think about if for a few weeks, ask your wife for help, then think
about it for several weeks more. maybe -- just maybe -- you might come to
understand the what you said. let me explain it to you

*you* said there is a wide difference in heights between Hampton Bay and
Peconic Bay.

If by "Hampton Bay" you mean Shinnecock Bay, yes I did. So does NOAA.
The tides in the two bays are roughly 4 hours out of sync, so the tide
difference will be substantial for much of the time. The difference can
be 2 feet or more. The two reference point I've used are Peconic Bay,
near the northern end of the canal, and near the Ponquogue Bridge, a
mile or so from the southern end.



Q Is this always?

A Obviously not, for if one were always higher than the other the water would
flow only one direction and that is not the case. (it would also require a
lock in the canal)

They obviously alternate - one side is higher, then the other.


Q If the water on the HB side is higher than the PB side, why is that?

A Because the tide is flooding

Flooding yes, but not necessarily through the Shinnecock Canal.
Shinnecock Bay is connected to the ocean through several inlets on the
south side of Long Island - it would rise and fall regardless of the
current through the canal.



Q If the tide is flooding then the height difference must be enough to require
a lock, no?

A No. In fact Peconic Bay has no lock and is open to the Atlantic Ocean to
the east and the Peconic Bay is tidal water.

A height difference does not "require" a lock. There are serious height
differences in a variety of places where there is not lock. Hell Gate
and Cape Cod Canal are two areas that have major differences across a
few miles, and there is no lock.

However, when the current is strong, it can be desirable to put a lock
in to stop the flow and allow boat traffic more often. Apparently that
is what was decided for the Shinnecock Canal, because there is a lock there.

BTW, here's a quote from an early proposal. For financial reasons, the
lock was not added until some years after the tidal gates. However, the
need was recognized early:
"A lock should be constructed at each end of the canal to retain the
water at the elevation of high tide, and make slack water between the
bays. The tide rises at this place about three feet, and as there are
about three hours’ difference in the time of high water in the bays, the
locks will be necessary to prevent a rapid current in the canal, and
will permit the passage of vessels at all times of tide."
http://www.history.rochester.edu/can...06/Chap12.html



Q Then Hampton Bay must not be tidal water, right?

A Hampton Bay is tidal water.


Again, do you mean Shinnecock Bay?

Q So, why the lock?

A No lock, the water height difference is not enough but to cause ordinary
tidal flow.


Than how do you explain the picture of the lock? Good Grief, you're
arguing that it makes no sense to put a lock there when in fact they
did! I posted the picture of it - here it is again:

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

How do you explain the picture of the repair to the lock gates, just two
years ago? If they were to remain open, why would the county spend
several million to repair them?

And what do you mean by "height difference is not enough but to cause
ordinary tidal flow"? What is "ordinary tidal flow" and how much
height difference cause that?




Q So why the gates?

A To reduce the saltier HB water from entering PB in large quantities.

Wrong! The gates were constructed to allow salt water from Peconic Bay
to enter the fresh water Shinnecock Bay in an effort to clean it since
it had become polluted. They did not want the polluted water to return
north. The Shinnecock Inlet did not exist (despite several efforts to
create it) until the the hurricane of 1938.

Now, the situation is reversed, and Shinnecock Bay is salty, and Peconic
Bay is fresher and polluted. This is why there have been proposals to
reverse the gates. This is also why I granted that they may have left
the locks open. However, although this is a possibility, I've seen no
evidence of it.

Actually, before the hurricane opened Shinnecock Inlet, the gates were
left open much of the time, and flow was allowed in both directions.
After the inlet was opened, the gates were closed to keep the water
higher in Shinnecock Bay, to prevent silting in of the inlet.



Q Why is PB less saltier?

A PB has freshwater rivers flowing into it.

It may be less salty now, but it wasn't when the gates were built.



Q So, Hampton Bay must have the same water level, less tidal difference, as
PC.
A Of course. If HB water were always higher the canal would need a lock to
move boats. If PB water were always higher there would be no need to worry
about salty HB water from entering.

And yet, the published tide tables show there is often a two foot
difference between Peconic Bay and Shinnecock Bay. Are you claiming
those are wrong too?

BTW, here's a quote from a recent magazine article:

"This problem [erosion in the canal] was solved by building tide gates
and, in 1919, a lock in the canal. The one-way tide gates -- pushed open
by high tides running south from Peconic Bay and pushed closed by high
tides running from the opposite direction -- ensure that enough water
flushes out of Peconic Bay into Shinnecock Bay to carry all the sand and
silt that would otherwise accumulate and block the canal. The lock,
rebuilt about 30 years ago, allows boats to be floated up or down to
meet the differing water levels at either end."
http://www.newsday.com/community/gui...ory-navigation




Q So, what is the issue

A jeffies thinks because locks have two gates anything with two gates is a
lock.

Isn't that what a lock is? A chamber with gates at either end? Every
comment on the facility describes it as a lock. Why do you insist it is
not?



Q Is jaxie a fumb duck?

A Yes


At least there's something we can all agree with!