brian, painting a Rolls-Royce symbol on a Yugo may be okay in Slovinia, but it
ain't nowhere elsein.

the discussion was about a non-citizen buying a US documented boat in the US
and sailing it in the US and waters around and back to Europe. he can't do
that. He can fake, maybe (as your Dalmatians do for Dalmatian reasons), but he
will get his boat siezed if caught by the USCG and/or seriously fine by most
countried if he tries to enter on faked or forged papers.

How long, brian, do *you* think *you* would last driving a Yugo with fake
Dalmatian license plates around the US? What would happen when some cop Idaho
stopped you and asked you for your Dalmatian driver's license, for only
Dalamatians are allowed to use Dalmatian docoumented cars (if a Yugo can be
called a car).

What would I expect? You ask, an international incident, probably. Even if
you are right it, seems to me that it would be a disproportionate action
that would bring the US government into further international opprobium. A
bully-boy action on a small country for something that should, certaily
could, be settled by diplomacy.

I am only reporting what I saw and heard - that many, many Slovenians are
sailing their boats south in the Adriatic to Croatia (their own coastline is
only around 50nm) where I was cruising at the time, and flying the US flag,
sometimes with a number purporting to be a registration number beginning
with "DL". That a Slovenian skipper/owner (not a Dalmation, that's a dog and
an adjective for a Croatian archipeligo) admitted to me that he paid for US
registration to circumvent his country's swingeing (according to him) tax
laws on imported boats.

My post was neither condoning nor condemning, merely commenting on a
relevant thread. They may be contravening a US law in US waters -
internationally, hmmm, I dunno; maybe you're right.

BrianH.


JAXAshby wrote:

brian,

a.) anyone can register a boat in any state. registering is different
from documenting, and

b.) anyone can hoist any flag they choose on their boat. however,
any boat with a US flag can legally be boarded by the USCG, at gun
point if necessary, anywhere in the world. boats claiming to be US
flagged but aren't can, and likely would be, siezed. that the USCG
has few cutters in the area Dalmatia does not change that.

c.) if the German speaking Dalmatian meant that someone formed a US
corp in Delaware and then documented his boat with that corp as the
owner, yes this can be done. However, the vessel still MUST be
operated by aUS citizen in command. If it isn't and the USCG stops
the boat the boat will be siezed and at the least the documentation
will be revoked.

what would you expect, dood?

Jax, I spoke (in German, after he failed to understand my English)
to one of the owners while waiting for the village post office to
open on one of the small Dalmatian islands last summer, we were
neighbours in the anchorage there; he said he had registered his
yacht in Delaware for $100. It seems there are companies, sometimes
a single lawyer, who facilitate this service.

This must be a thriving business from the number of US ensigns I saw
- it
was clear who were genuine US boats and who were Slovenian from the
size of the ensign - the latter were using smaller, courtesy flags,
presumably the only type available locally.

Best,

BrianH


JAXAshby wrote:
Brian, they may be registered in say South Carlolina but they are
not, can not, be US documented and operated by non-citizens.

That some countries allow their citizens to register some boat with
some state
-- and then ignores the international conventions -- in no way means
that some county -- say Brazil or Italy or Singapore -- will accept
it as the same as US federal documentation.

close, but a couple of points

boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama,
California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in
that
state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen
to register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to
pay
your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by
national governments of the world.


There are many US registered yachts in the Adriatic - owned and
sailed by Slovenian nationals; everywhere down the Croatian coast
there are Ol' Glory ensigns flying on ships with no one speaking
English on board.

Slovenia, now a EU member state, has high import tarifs for
recreational
boats (to protect their own industry, Elan in particular) and many
Slovenians register their new imported craft in Delaware - it's a
cottage industry there.

Imagine, the USA, a flag of convenience country.

BrianH.

jeffies, you are quoting the special case far outside the original poster's
question. a legally documented vessel (say the owner is Del corp) operated on
a regular and continuing basis a single operater or set of operators who are
not US citizens will loose said documentation should they be caught.

google again, jeffies. all night long if you wish, but check with your wife
before you post again.

When you start posting like that its pretty clear you've lost the argument.
However, one more nail for your coffin:

"What has changed is that a foreigner is now allowed to be "in command" of a
U.S. documented recreational vessel. The regulations were relaxed in 1996,
only
for recreational vessels, and this mainly benefits those who want to bareboat
charter a documented vessel to a foreigner or a U.S. citizen who has a
foreign
spouse or boat partner. For all other endorsements of documented vessels --
coastwise, fishing, and registry -- a U.S. citizen must still be in command"
of
the vessel."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._6/ai_69233945



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, argue with the Coast Guard. documented boats have lost their
right
documentation by having a non-citizen in command.

jeffies, you REALLY should drop out of this discussion, for your wife is
nowhere near at hand to tell you that you are a dumb cluck.

"Jeff Morris"
Date: 9/30/2004 10:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Once again, jaxie is proved wrong.

Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110:

Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates
(a) A vessel may not be employed in a trade except a trade
covered by the endorsement issued for that vessel.
(b) A barge qualified to be employed in the coastwise trade may
be employed, without being documented, in that trade on rivers,
harbors, lakes (except the Great Lakes), canals, and inland waters.
(c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be
operated other than for pleasure.
(d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a
recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a
citizen of the United States.







"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, this has been discussed before and the problem it seems is that
you
don't understand what the English word "command" means in relation to a
documented vessel, as the word is understood by the US Congress.

First of all, jaxie doesn't understand the rules. His claim that a
citizen
must
be on documented vessels at all times is completely bogus. It may
be
true
for
commercial fishing vessels, but not for recreational boats.

jeffies is wrong on this, and it has been argued before. Again, I
say.
jeffies is dead wrong on this.

You've made this claim before but never substantiated it. Its pretty
easy
to
find the regs that require Fishing vessels to be command by citizens;
why
can't
you find the regs that apply to recreational vessels?


US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being
operating
by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command.

So, you're claiming that non-citzens can't charter a documented vessel
in
US
waters? I should be pretty easy to find a rule about that - how about
it
jaxie?

You made two claims, jaxie. One that it is illegal for a non-citizen to
document a boat in the US. On this I completely agree.

You also claimed, as you have several times in the past, that non-citizens
cannot be in command of a US documented vessels. As I've shown several times,
this is completely false - it does not apply to vessels with only a
"recreational" endorsement.





"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, you are quoting the special case far outside the original poster's
question. a legally documented vessel (say the owner is Del corp) operated on
a regular and continuing basis a single operater or set of operators who are
not US citizens will loose said documentation should they be caught.

google again, jeffies. all night long if you wish, but check with your wife
before you post again.

When you start posting like that its pretty clear you've lost the argument.
However, one more nail for your coffin:

"What has changed is that a foreigner is now allowed to be "in command" of a
U.S. documented recreational vessel. The regulations were relaxed in 1996,
only
for recreational vessels, and this mainly benefits those who want to bareboat
charter a documented vessel to a foreigner or a U.S. citizen who has a
foreign
spouse or boat partner. For all other endorsements of documented vessels --
coastwise, fishing, and registry -- a U.S. citizen must still be in command"
of
the vessel."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._6/ai_69233945



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, argue with the Coast Guard. documented boats have lost their
right
documentation by having a non-citizen in command.

jeffies, you REALLY should drop out of this discussion, for your wife is
nowhere near at hand to tell you that you are a dumb cluck.

"Jeff Morris"
Date: 9/30/2004 10:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Once again, jaxie is proved wrong.

Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110:

Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates
(a) A vessel may not be employed in a trade except a trade
covered by the endorsement issued for that vessel.
(b) A barge qualified to be employed in the coastwise trade may
be employed, without being documented, in that trade on rivers,
harbors, lakes (except the Great Lakes), canals, and inland waters.
(c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be
operated other than for pleasure.
(d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a
recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a
citizen of the United States.







"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, this has been discussed before and the problem it seems is that
you
don't understand what the English word "command" means in relation to a
documented vessel, as the word is understood by the US Congress.

First of all, jaxie doesn't understand the rules. His claim that a
citizen
must
be on documented vessels at all times is completely bogus. It may
be
true
for
commercial fishing vessels, but not for recreational boats.

jeffies is wrong on this, and it has been argued before. Again, I
say.
jeffies is dead wrong on this.

You've made this claim before but never substantiated it. Its pretty
easy
to
find the regs that require Fishing vessels to be command by citizens;
why
can't
you find the regs that apply to recreational vessels?


US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being
operating
by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command.

So, you're claiming that non-citzens can't charter a documented vessel
in
US
waters? I should be pretty easy to find a rule about that - how about
it
jaxie?

jeffies, you are way to stupid to argue with. you simply have no capablity to
think. you goggled for hours on end to find a single article in that Admiralty
legal journal called BoatUS hoping hope against hope to prove you are not so
stupid your wife has to balance the checkbook. you must be movie star good
looking for an ordinary woman to put up with your abject stupidity.

in the end, you found a single exception that relates *only* to recreational
boat IN CHARTER service.

you are a sophist (get your wife to explain what the big word means) pig of no
value to anyone in any discussion involving sailing or sailboats or even the
merits of lead pencils vs ball point pens.

because you are such a sophist pig hoping angainst hope to not really be the
stupid cluck the girls laughed at in high school you act in such a fashion that
adult men walk out of conversations you intrude upon and rednecks in pickup
trucks toss empty beer can at your head.

I am not much in favor of abortion, but jeffies, the world would be better off
if your mother had had one. I have utter disgust for the intellectual creep
you are. get used to it, squathead. you were born stupid, you are now stupid,
and you will die stupid. Stay out of the way. Adults are talking, and you
will never have adult intelligence.

"Jeff Morris"
Date: 10/2/2004 9:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

You made two claims, jaxie. One that it is illegal for a non-citizen to
document a boat in the US. On this I completely agree.

You also claimed, as you have several times in the past, that non-citizens
cannot be in command of a US documented vessels. As I've shown several
times,
this is completely false - it does not apply to vessels with only a
"recreational" endorsement.





"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, you are quoting the special case far outside the original poster's
question. a legally documented vessel (say the owner is Del corp) operated
on
a regular and continuing basis a single operater or set of operators who
are
not US citizens will loose said documentation should they be caught.

google again, jeffies. all night long if you wish, but check with your
wife
before you post again.

When you start posting like that its pretty clear you've lost the
argument.
However, one more nail for your coffin:

"What has changed is that a foreigner is now allowed to be "in command" of
a
U.S. documented recreational vessel. The regulations were relaxed in 1996,
only
for recreational vessels, and this mainly benefits those who want to
bareboat
charter a documented vessel to a foreigner or a U.S. citizen who has a
foreign
spouse or boat partner. For all other endorsements of documented vessels
--
coastwise, fishing, and registry -- a U.S. citizen must still be in
command"
of
the vessel."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._6/ai_69233945



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, argue with the Coast Guard. documented boats have lost their
right
documentation by having a non-citizen in command.

jeffies, you REALLY should drop out of this discussion, for your wife is
nowhere near at hand to tell you that you are a dumb cluck.

"Jeff Morris"
Date: 9/30/2004 10:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Once again, jaxie is proved wrong.

Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110:

Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates
(a) A vessel may not be employed in a trade except a trade
covered by the endorsement issued for that vessel.
(b) A barge qualified to be employed in the coastwise trade may
be employed, without being documented, in that trade on rivers,
harbors, lakes (except the Great Lakes), canals, and inland waters.
(c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be
operated other than for pleasure.
(d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a
recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a
citizen of the United States.







"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, this has been discussed before and the problem it seems is
that
you
don't understand what the English word "command" means in relation to
a
documented vessel, as the word is understood by the US Congress.

First of all, jaxie doesn't understand the rules. His claim that
a
citizen
must
be on documented vessels at all times is completely bogus. It
may
be
true
for
commercial fishing vessels, but not for recreational boats.

jeffies is wrong on this, and it has been argued before. Again, I
say.
jeffies is dead wrong on this.

You've made this claim before but never substantiated it. Its
pretty
easy
to
find the regs that require Fishing vessels to be command by
citizens;
why
can't
you find the regs that apply to recreational vessels?


US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to
being
operating
by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command.

So, you're claiming that non-citzens can't charter a documented
vessel
in
US
waters? I should be pretty easy to find a rule about that - how
about
it
jaxie?

A simple Google search brought up plenty of offers to register AND document
a foreign person's yacht in the USA. Seems that a company is formed (LLC,
which presumably a foreigner can own) which is administered in the US and
the yacht is leased to the owner who operates it as a US flagged ship. I
cannot believe that al these arrangements by US companies would exist to
encourage other nationals to break US law. See:
http://www.corpco.com/lc_yachts.html#yacht
Note the clauses headed "Delaware Registration" and "U.S. Coastguard
Documentation".

Best,

BrianH


Jeff Morris wrote:
You made two claims, jaxie. One that it is illegal for a non-citizen
to document a boat in the US. On this I completely agree.

You also claimed, as you have several times in the past, that
non-citizens cannot be in command of a US documented vessels. As
I've shown several times, this is completely false - it does not
apply to vessels with only a "recreational" endorsement.

brian, that information was posted -- by me -- three days ago. notice also
that US flagged vessels must be "under the command of" a US citizen (the box of
rocks stupid jeffie's singular exception for recreational vessels put in
charter service).

but thanks anyway. please, in the future, keep up with the discusssions, or
don't post at all.

"BrianH"
Date: 10/2/2004 10:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

A simple Google search brought up plenty of offers to register AND document
a foreign person's yacht in the USA. Seems that a company is formed (LLC,
which presumably a foreigner can own) which is administered in the US and
the yacht is leased to the owner who operates it as a US flagged ship. I
cannot believe that al these arrangements by US companies would exist to
encourage other nationals to break US law. See:
http://www.corpco.com/lc_yachts.html#yacht
Note the clauses headed "Delaware Registration" and "U.S. Coastguard
Documentation".

Best,

BrianH


Jeff Morris wrote:
You made two claims, jaxie. One that it is illegal for a non-citizen
to document a boat in the US. On this I completely agree.

You also claimed, as you have several times in the past, that
non-citizens cannot be in command of a US documented vessels. As
I've shown several times, this is completely false - it does not
apply to vessels with only a "recreational" endorsement.

The registration is legal, I'm not so sure about the documentation. The US Code
goes on a great length describing illegal versions of foreign owned or
controlled fishing vessels. However, the rules might be relaxed for
recreational vessels. I note that the link you cite is a bit vague on the
documentation issue.



"BrianH" wrote in message ...
A simple Google search brought up plenty of offers to register AND document
a foreign person's yacht in the USA. Seems that a company is formed (LLC,
which presumably a foreigner can own) which is administered in the US and
the yacht is leased to the owner who operates it as a US flagged ship. I
cannot believe that al these arrangements by US companies would exist to
encourage other nationals to break US law. See:
http://www.corpco.com/lc_yachts.html#yacht
Note the clauses headed "Delaware Registration" and "U.S. Coastguard
Documentation".

Best,

BrianH


Jeff Morris wrote:
You made two claims, jaxie. One that it is illegal for a non-citizen
to document a boat in the US. On this I completely agree.

You also claimed, as you have several times in the past, that
non-citizens cannot be in command of a US documented vessels. As
I've shown several times, this is completely false - it does not
apply to vessels with only a "recreational" endorsement.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
brian, that information was posted -- by me -- three days ago. notice also
that US flagged vessels must be "under the command of" a US citizen (the box
of
rocks stupid jeffie's singular exception for recreational vessels put in
charter service).


You really have a reading problem jaxie, the exception is for ALL recreational
vessels; charterers were simply listed as one group that would benefit;
non-citizen relatives are another.

google, little-box-of-rocks-in-training-wheels, for several hours and show us
the *EXACT* paragraph in the CG regulations where it _expressly_ states ANY and
ALL documented recreational vessel may be under the command of a non-citizen at
ANY time and under ANY condition.

please be specific, as your claim is specific.

"Jeff -- box of rocks -- Morris"
Date: 10/2/2004 12:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
brian, that information was posted -- by me -- three days ago. notice also
that US flagged vessels must be "under the command of" a US citizen (the
box
of
rocks stupid jeffie's singular exception for recreational vessels put in
charter service).


You really have a reading problem jaxie, the exception is for ALL
recreational
vessels; charterers were simply listed as one group that would benefit;
non-citizen relatives are another.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
google, little-box-of-rocks-in-training-wheels, for several hours and show us
the *EXACT* paragraph in the CG regulations where it _expressly_ states ANY
and
ALL documented recreational vessel may be under the command of a non-citizen
at
ANY time and under ANY condition.

please be specific, as your claim is specific.

I already did.

Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110:

Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates
...
(c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be
operated other than for pleasure.
(d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a
recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a
citizen of the United States.

This is the last published version of the US Code, otherwise known as "The Law"

The law has been updated in the last year or so, with some new sections added,
including:

Section 12131. Command of documented vessels

A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational
endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United
States.


Section 12151. Penalties
....
(e) Seizure and Forfeiture of Vessels.--

(1) Grounds.--The Government may seize and forfeit a vessel
(including its equipment) if--

(A) the owner of the vessel or the representative or agent of the
owner knowingly falsifies or conceals a material fact, or knowingly makes a
false statement or representation, about the documentation of the vessel or in
applying for documentation of the vessel;

(B) a certificate of documentation is knowingly and fraudulently
used for the vessel;

(C) the vessel is operated after its endorsement has been denied or
revoked under section 12152 of this title;

(D) the vessel is employed in commerce without an appropriate
endorsement;

(E) the vessel has only a recreational endorsement and is operated
other than for pleasure;

(F) the vessel is a documented vessel (except a vessel with only a
recreational endorsement) and is placed under the command of a person not a
citizen of the United States
...