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import duties and VAT
A few questions financial aspects of live aboard cruising....
I am English and plan to buy a US registered liveaboard boat in US. Although I intend to spend time in US waters and Caribbean initially, What is payable if I enter EU waters for a limited time and then leave, is there a time limit? Also are duties payable when I visit any other world cruising grounds? I intend to keep a small flat in England, what is the tax position if I am living away from UK for most of the time? Again, are there time limits etc. Can I still get my state pension paid if I am away from UK? Is there any angle to maximising this position etc? Thanks in advance for your advice. Ray |
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
... Ray, while you can *register* a US vessel as a non-citizen, you can NOT --- document --- a US vessel as a non-citizen. In fact, as a non-citizen, you can not even move a US documented vessel without a qualified US citizen aboard. dems the rules. registration is done on the state level, documentation on the federal level. Hear to tell most Caribbean countries (non-French) will accept registration, at least for US registered vessels arriving with US citizens in command. I suspect you really, really, really don't want to travel in a registered boat as a non-US citizen to non-US countries. [snipped] -- I'm not sure I completely understand the finer point you are making here. If I travel from Aus to US and by a yacht second hand I can sail her away to anywhere in the world. What I can't do is buy a US yacht and still call it a US yacht? I think. You obviously understand the rules very well - can you explain a bit more for someone who doesn't. thanks Hoges in WA Remove the zeds. |
First of all, jaxie doesn't understand the rules. His claim that a citizen must
be on documented vessels at all times is completely bogus. It may be true for commercial fishing vessels, but not for recreational boats. He is correct on the other point however. A non-citizen may not own (or in any way have a controlling interest in) a US "Documented" vessel. Therefore, the boat, if documented, must be undocumented before you buy it. After that, you can have it flagged in your home country (would that mean you have to pay the VAT?) or "registered" in whatever state of the US you reside in. However, a non-citizen owning a state registered boat is in an odd situation. I've heard that in this case you are not eligible for the normal cruising permit, and need special paperwork everytime you move the boat within the US. Further, the state title papers will not carry the same weight in Caribbean countries, especially since they will not match your papers. You should research this very carefully - you certainly want to have everything setup correctly before you buy. Try Googling "non-citizen documented vessel" and variations on that for hints. "Hoges in WA" wrote in message ... "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... Ray, while you can *register* a US vessel as a non-citizen, you can NOT --- document --- a US vessel as a non-citizen. In fact, as a non-citizen, you can not even move a US documented vessel without a qualified US citizen aboard. dems the rules. registration is done on the state level, documentation on the federal level. Hear to tell most Caribbean countries (non-French) will accept registration, at least for US registered vessels arriving with US citizens in command. I suspect you really, really, really don't want to travel in a registered boat as a non-US citizen to non-US countries. [snipped] -- I'm not sure I completely understand the finer point you are making here. If I travel from Aus to US and by a yacht second hand I can sail her away to anywhere in the world. What I can't do is buy a US yacht and still call it a US yacht? I think. You obviously understand the rules very well - can you explain a bit more for someone who doesn't. thanks Hoges in WA Remove the zeds. |
to be US documented, the vessel must be owned -- and operated -- by a US
citizen. That means as a non-US citizen you can not own or operate a US documented vessel. you *can* own and operate a _state_ *registered* vessel (state meaning one of the 50 states, or various US territories). However, many countries will not allow a vessel without country documentation to enter. many (most?) Caribbean countries will allow a state registered US vesse to enter without US (federal) documentation, because a US citizen from say Florida is more than welcome to spend his money in say the Bahamas. The French Caribbean countries are reported to fine US registered vessels for entering without "proper" US documentation. hope this helps. if not, ask again and I'll try to explain it better. I'm not sure I completely understand the finer point you are making here. If I travel from Aus to US and by a yacht second hand I can sail her away to anywhere in the world. What I can't do is buy a US yacht and still call it a US yacht? I think. You obviously understand the rules very well - can you explain a bit more for someone who doesn't. thanks Hoges in WA Remove the zeds. |
First of all, jaxie doesn't understand the rules. His claim that a citizen
must be on documented vessels at all times is completely bogus. It may be true for commercial fishing vessels, but not for recreational boats. jeffies is wrong on this, and it has been argued before. Again, I say. jeffies is dead wrong on this. US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being operating by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command. dems the rules. |
"JAXAshby" wrote in message ... First of all, jaxie doesn't understand the rules. His claim that a citizen must be on documented vessels at all times is completely bogus. It may be true for commercial fishing vessels, but not for recreational boats. jeffies is wrong on this, and it has been argued before. Again, I say. jeffies is dead wrong on this. You've made this claim before but never substantiated it. Its pretty easy to find the regs that require Fishing vessels to be command by citizens; why can't you find the regs that apply to recreational vessels? US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being operating by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command. So, you're claiming that non-citzens can't charter a documented vessel in US waters? I should be pretty easy to find a rule about that - how about it jaxie? |
jeffies, this has been discussed before and the problem it seems is that you
don't understand what the English word "command" means in relation to a documented vessel, as the word is understood by the US Congress. First of all, jaxie doesn't understand the rules. His claim that a citizen must be on documented vessels at all times is completely bogus. It may be true for commercial fishing vessels, but not for recreational boats. jeffies is wrong on this, and it has been argued before. Again, I say. jeffies is dead wrong on this. You've made this claim before but never substantiated it. Its pretty easy to find the regs that require Fishing vessels to be command by citizens; why can't you find the regs that apply to recreational vessels? US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being operating by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command. So, you're claiming that non-citzens can't charter a documented vessel in US waters? I should be pretty easy to find a rule about that - how about it jaxie? |
Jax, you couldn't arrange for a pack of hungry wolfs to find fresh meat.
"JAXAshby" wrote in message ... | So, you're claiming that non-citzens can't charter a documented vessel in US | waters? | | that's a fact. | | jeffies? wanna hand your documented vessel over to a non-citizen for a couple | hours off a CG station? Let me know ahead of time and I will arrange a | welcoming committee. | | |
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:07:24 +0100, "ray nash"
wrote: A few questions financial aspects of live aboard cruising.... I am English and plan to buy a US registered liveaboard boat in US. Although I intend to spend time in US waters and Caribbean initially, What is payable if I enter EU waters for a limited time and then leave, is there a time limit? Also are duties payable when I visit any other world cruising grounds? I intend to keep a small flat in England, what is the tax position if I am living away from UK for most of the time? Again, are there time limits etc. Can I still get my state pension paid if I am away from UK? Is there any angle to maximising this position etc? Thanks in advance for your advice. ======================================== You might want to consider redocumenting offshore, perhaps in the Cayman Islands which seems to be a popular home port these days. |
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
... to be US documented, the vessel must be owned -- and operated -- by a US citizen. That means as a non-US citizen you can not own or operate a US documented vessel. you *can* own and operate a _state_ *registered* vessel (state meaning one of the 50 states, or various US territories). However, many countries will not allow a vessel without country documentation to enter. many (most?) Caribbean countries will allow a state registered US vesse to enter without US (federal) documentation, because a US citizen from say Florida is more than welcome to spend his money in say the Bahamas. The French Caribbean countries are reported to fine US registered vessels for entering without "proper" US documentation. hope this helps. if not, ask again and I'll try to explain it better. . I thinks I's gettin the jist of it. A US documented vessel belongs to a US citizen. He offers it for sale. I buy it. BUT I then must turn it into an Australian vessel and because I have done so Australia is then responsible for my actions on the high seas, not America. The USof A doesn't want a bucketload of Aussies or any-ies rushing about the high seas in vessels purporting to be US vessels - they reserve their responsibilities for their citizens. As long as I make the yacht Australian, I am then free (customs/immigration consenting) to tour the US and any other country that allows me as an Australian registered vessel, not a US registered vessel. Which makes sense. You were getting me on the finer turns of phraseology. Where you were using 'documented' I think I lost you - if I call it "registered" would that match what you meant? Hate to be painful but as retirement approaches this is a possibility. Strange as it may seem, a chappie from my little country seaside town on the other side of the world to you wandered off the the Caribbean to buy hisself a boat to sail back because of the vast range and modest prices and it's certainly something I'd consider. -- Hoges in WA Remove the zeds. |
"Hoges in WA" wrote in message ... .... You were getting me on the finer turns of phraseology. Where you were using 'documented' I think I lost you - if I call it "registered" would that match what you meant? .... Its very simple: Documentation is a process you go through with the Federal Government. It makes the boat a "flagged vessel" of the US. It has to be measured, (the builder usually supplies measurement papers), and will have various endorsements, such as "recreational" or "fishing." Any legal claims and liens against the boat must be filed with the Coast Guard, so the documentation can serve as a clear title. Some boats are not eligible for documentation,or certain endorsements, other must be documented to be used for their purpose. Registration is a process you go through with state authorities, often the Registry of Motor Vehicles (the Environmental Police in MA). Some states don't require registration of documented vessels, other do. In any case, they can't require that the state numbers be put on a documented vessel, though some require a sticker. If you spend more than 60 (or is it 90?) days in a state, you may be required to follow their rules, including proving that the appropriate sales tax has been paid, so make sure you carry the receipt for the original payment. Most small boats in the US are registered, but not documented. Larger vessels, especially commercial, are generally documented. Usually, documentation is viewed as an advantage. It can simplify selling or mortgaging a boat, and is sometimes viewed more favorably by authorities. But the rules are quite clear - a non-citizen may not own or in any way control a documented vessel. |
close, but a couple of points
boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama, California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in that state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen to register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to pay your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by national governments of the world. boats can be "documented" by the US Coast Guard. There are some requirements to this. one is the owner MUST be a US citizen (can include a US corporation). Another is that the vessel can never be "under the command" of a non-US citizen. (the reason for this is national defense, for if a war comes up all US documented vessels are owned by US citizens, who presumably are loyal to the US. This is more important with cargo vessels, but the documentation process is the same for recreational vessels). Documentation is normally required by other countries for a vessel to enter. I thinks I's gettin the jist of it. A US documented vessel belongs to a US citizen. He offers it for sale. I buy it. BUT I then must turn it into an Australian vessel and because I have done so Australia is then responsible for my actions on the high seas, not America. The USof A doesn't want a bucketload of Aussies or any-ies rushing about the high seas in vessels purporting to be US vessels - they reserve their responsibilities for their citizens. As long as I make the yacht Australian, I am then free (customs/immigration consenting) to tour the US and any other country that allows me as an Australian registered vessel, not a US registered vessel. Which makes sense. You were getting me on the finer turns of phraseology. Where you were using 'documented' I think I lost you - if I call it "registered" would that match what you meant? Hate to be painful but as retirement approaches this is a possibility. Strange as it may seem, a chappie from my little country seaside town on the other side of the world to you wandered off the the Caribbean to buy hisself a boat to sail back because of the vast range and modest prices and it's certainly something I'd consider. -- Hoges in WA Remove the zeds. |
"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
... "Hoges in WA" wrote in message ... ... You were getting me on the finer turns of phraseology. Where you were using 'documented' I think I lost you - if I call it "registered" would that match what you meant? ... Its very simple: Documentation is a process you go through with the Federal Government. It makes the boat a "flagged vessel" of the US. It has to be measured, (the builder usually supplies measurement papers), and will have various endorsements, such as "recreational" or "fishing." Any legal claims and liens against the boat must be filed with the Coast Guard, so the documentation can serve as a clear title. Some boats are not eligible for documentation,or certain endorsements, other must be documented to be used for their purpose. Registration is a process you go through with state authorities, often the Registry of Motor Vehicles (the Environmental Police in MA). Some states don't require registration of documented vessels, other do. In any case, they can't require that the state numbers be put on a documented vessel, though some require a sticker. If you spend more than 60 (or is it 90?) days in a state, you may be required to follow their rules, including proving that the appropriate sales tax has been paid, so make sure you carry the receipt for the original payment. Most small boats in the US are registered, but not documented. Larger vessels, especially commercial, are generally documented. Usually, documentation is viewed as an advantage. It can simplify selling or mortgaging a boat, and is sometimes viewed more favorably by authorities. But the rules are quite clear - a non-citizen may not own or in any way control a documented vessel. Now I gets it. Documenting is what I, as a Banker, want in anything I'm lending money for but not what I as a retiree actually need - then I only need to register. Took me a while but you gotta give me credit - I eventually saw the light. thanks and qwitchabitchin you two - you've both helped! -- Hoges in WA Remove the zeds. |
Once again, jaxie is proved wrong.
Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110: Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates (a) A vessel may not be employed in a trade except a trade covered by the endorsement issued for that vessel. (b) A barge qualified to be employed in the coastwise trade may be employed, without being documented, in that trade on rivers, harbors, lakes (except the Great Lakes), canals, and inland waters. (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, this has been discussed before and the problem it seems is that you don't understand what the English word "command" means in relation to a documented vessel, as the word is understood by the US Congress. First of all, jaxie doesn't understand the rules. His claim that a citizen must be on documented vessels at all times is completely bogus. It may be true for commercial fishing vessels, but not for recreational boats. jeffies is wrong on this, and it has been argued before. Again, I say. jeffies is dead wrong on this. You've made this claim before but never substantiated it. Its pretty easy to find the regs that require Fishing vessels to be command by citizens; why can't you find the regs that apply to recreational vessels? US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being operating by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command. So, you're claiming that non-citzens can't charter a documented vessel in US waters? I should be pretty easy to find a rule about that - how about it jaxie? |
JAXAshby wrote:
close, but a couple of points boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama, California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in that state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen to register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to pay your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by national governments of the world. There are many US registered yachts in the Adriatic - owned and sailed by Slovenian nationals; everywhere down the Croatian coast there are Ol' Glory ensigns flying on ships with no one speaking English on board. Slovenia, now a EU member state, has high import tarifs for recreational boats (to protect their own industry, Elan in particular) and many Slovenians register their new imported craft in Delaware - it's a cottage industry there. Imagine, the USA, a flag of convenience country. BrianH. |
On this I would agree with jaxie - it is patently illegal for a non-citizen of the US to own, or in
any way have a controlling interest, in a US Documented vessel. The laws go on at great length closing as many loopholes as the lawyers could think of. There is no exemption for recreational vessels. Vessels in violation certainly lose their documentation, and might be liable for seizure. I'm not sure how this works if the vessel is not in US waters. However, being a US flagged vessel means that it can be boarded and searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we should send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget deficit. -- -jeff "BrianH" wrote in message ... JAXAshby wrote: close, but a couple of points boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama, California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in that state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen to register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to pay your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by national governments of the world. There are many US registered yachts in the Adriatic - owned and sailed by Slovenian nationals; everywhere down the Croatian coast there are Ol' Glory ensigns flying on ships with no one speaking English on board. Slovenia, now a EU member state, has high import tarifs for recreational boats (to protect their own industry, Elan in particular) and many Slovenians register their new imported craft in Delaware - it's a cottage industry there. Imagine, the USA, a flag of convenience country. BrianH. |
"Jeff Morris" wrote in
: However, being a US flagged vessel means that it can be boarded and searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we should send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget deficit. Another fine example of American thinking on how to make friends around the world! Then again we're doing a great job with our current policies. -- Geoff |
I'm not sure what your problem is - why shouldn't the USCG be able to board a US
flagged ship? Why would this offend others around the world? "Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message 7... "Jeff Morris" wrote in : However, being a US flagged vessel means that it can be boarded and searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we should send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget deficit. Another fine example of American thinking on how to make friends around the world! Then again we're doing a great job with our current policies. -- Geoff |
In the article which prompted your response it was stated that US
flagged vessels are being operated by non-English speaking individuals. From your statement it appears that you want to US coastguard to board these vessels based upon their language and potentially sieze them. Most people would call this "racial profiling." There's nothing in the US consitution or US Coastguard documentation regulations which requires anyone to speak English. I know plenty of Croation people who are US citizens who do not speak English. Sending a Coastguard cutter to harass non-English speaking individuals, who may be well within the law, seems to be a poor idea. As someone who cruises 7+ month per year out of the country I can assure you that the US has a poor enough world image as it is. -- Geoff "Jeff Morris" wrote in : I'm not sure what your problem is - why shouldn't the USCG be able to board a US flagged ship? Why would this offend others around the world? "Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message 7... "Jeff Morris" wrote in : However, being a US flagged vessel means that it can be boarded and searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we should send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget deficit. Another fine example of American thinking on how to make friends around the world! Then again we're doing a great job with our current policies. -- Geoff |
Total hogwash! Have you left your brain ashore?
The article never mentioned "non-English speaking," it mentioned "Slovenian nationals," which I take to imply non-US-citizens. While documentation does not require knowledge of English, it absolutely requires US citizenship. The poster described a situation where, if true, people are fraudulently claiming to be US citizens to gain some protection of traveling under a US flag. I never suggested boarding boats based on the linguistic abilities of the crew; on the contrary, I was suggesting checking out boats that were flying a US flag, nominally claiming to be US citizens. Frankly my comments were a bit sarcastic, because I doubt the practice mentioned is widespread. However, if it is common, it should be stopped because it does not bode well for those of who legitimately travel under the US flag. "Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message 7... In the article which prompted your response it was stated that US flagged vessels are being operated by non-English speaking individuals. From your statement it appears that you want to US coastguard to board these vessels based upon their language and potentially sieze them. Most people would call this "racial profiling." There's nothing in the US consitution or US Coastguard documentation regulations which requires anyone to speak English. I know plenty of Croation people who are US citizens who do not speak English. Sending a Coastguard cutter to harass non-English speaking individuals, who may be well within the law, seems to be a poor idea. As someone who cruises 7+ month per year out of the country I can assure you that the US has a poor enough world image as it is. -- Geoff "Jeff Morris" wrote in : I'm not sure what your problem is - why shouldn't the USCG be able to board a US flagged ship? Why would this offend others around the world? "Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message 7... "Jeff Morris" wrote in : However, being a US flagged vessel means that it can be boarded and searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we should send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget deficit. Another fine example of American thinking on how to make friends around the world! Then again we're doing a great job with our current policies. -- Geoff |
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:29:50 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
wrote: On this I would agree with jaxie - it is patently illegal for a non-citizen of the US to own, or in any way have a controlling interest, in a US Documented vessel. The laws go on at great length closing as many loopholes as the lawyers could think of. There is no exemption for recreational vessels. Vessels in violation certainly lose their documentation, and might be liable for seizure. Uh-huh: the first phrase indicates a mistake is in progress. Owning a US registered vessel is the stuff for which lawyers exist: the usual mechanism for non-citizens is to vest ownership in a US corporation. The asset ownership issue is essentially pencil-whipped. A US corporation need not cost a whole lot of money : $250 can do it.... Brian Whatcott Altus OK |
Documenting is what I, as a Banker, want in anything I'm
lending money for but not what I as a retiree actually need - then I only need to register. Documentation is what you want if you leave the country for anywhere other than Canada and most Caribbean countries. |
jeffies, argue with the Coast Guard. documented boats have lost their right
documentation by having a non-citizen in command. jeffies, you REALLY should drop out of this discussion, for your wife is nowhere near at hand to tell you that you are a dumb cluck. "Jeff Morris" Date: 9/30/2004 10:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: Once again, jaxie is proved wrong. Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110: Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates (a) A vessel may not be employed in a trade except a trade covered by the endorsement issued for that vessel. (b) A barge qualified to be employed in the coastwise trade may be employed, without being documented, in that trade on rivers, harbors, lakes (except the Great Lakes), canals, and inland waters. (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, this has been discussed before and the problem it seems is that you don't understand what the English word "command" means in relation to a documented vessel, as the word is understood by the US Congress. First of all, jaxie doesn't understand the rules. His claim that a citizen must be on documented vessels at all times is completely bogus. It may be true for commercial fishing vessels, but not for recreational boats. jeffies is wrong on this, and it has been argued before. Again, I say. jeffies is dead wrong on this. You've made this claim before but never substantiated it. Its pretty easy to find the regs that require Fishing vessels to be command by citizens; why can't you find the regs that apply to recreational vessels? US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being operating by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command. So, you're claiming that non-citzens can't charter a documented vessel in US waters? I should be pretty easy to find a rule about that - how about it jaxie? |
Brian, they may be registered in say South Carlolina but they are not, can not,
be US documented and operated by non-citizens. That some countries allow their citizens to register some boat with some state -- and then ignores the international conventions -- in no way means that some county -- say Brazil or Italy or Singapore -- will accept it as the same as US federal documentation. close, but a couple of points boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama, California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in that state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen to register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to pay your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by national governments of the world. There are many US registered yachts in the Adriatic - owned and sailed by Slovenian nationals; everywhere down the Croatian coast there are Ol' Glory ensigns flying on ships with no one speaking English on board. Slovenia, now a EU member state, has high import tarifs for recreational boats (to protect their own industry, Elan in particular) and many Slovenians register their new imported craft in Delaware - it's a cottage industry there. Imagine, the USA, a flag of convenience country. BrianH. |
it is not a "US flagged vessel" with a state government registration on it. It
is a state registered vessel. A "US flagged vessel" is (federally) DOCUMENTED. To be documented, the vessel MUST be owned and operated by a US citizen. guys, knock it off. this is law and any ng bickering don't change it. On this I would agree with jaxie - it is patently illegal for a non-citizen of the US to own, or in any way have a controlling interest, in a US Documented vessel. The laws go on at great length closing as many loopholes as the lawyers could think of. There is no exemption for recreational vessels. Vessels in violation certainly lose their documentation, and might be liable for seizure. I'm not sure how this works if the vessel is not in US waters. However, being a US flagged vessel means that it can be boarded and searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we should send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget deficit. -- -jeff "BrianH" wrote in message ... JAXAshby wrote: close, but a couple of points boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama, California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in that state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen to register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to pay your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by national governments of the world. There are many US registered yachts in the Adriatic - owned and sailed by Slovenian nationals; everywhere down the Croatian coast there are Ol' Glory ensigns flying on ships with no one speaking English on board. Slovenia, now a EU member state, has high import tarifs for recreational boats (to protect their own industry, Elan in particular) and many Slovenians register their new imported craft in Delaware - it's a cottage industry there. Imagine, the USA, a flag of convenience country. BrianH. |
In the article which prompted your response it was stated that US
flagged vessels are being operated by non-English speaking individuals. no, not non-English-speaking (note the required second hyphon) individuals, but rather non-US-citizens operating US documented vessels. this is illegal, and the US CG has a legal right to board US-flagged vessel anywhere in the world. If the vessel is operated by a non-citizen, the CG has a right -- indeed, a duty -- to sieze the vessel. you don't like that, don't operate a US-flagged vessel as a non-citizen. what the hell do yo expect, dood? |
I know plenty of
Croation people who are US citizens who do not speak English. no you don't. you can't get to be a US citizen without knowing English (unless you were born in the US, in which makes not knowing English unlikely). you can't pass the tests to become a citizen otherwise. |
the usual mechanism for non-citizens is to vest ownership in a US
corporation. this *can* be done, but most certainly is not the norm, for it brings on its own issues. besides, the law STILL requires a US-flagged vessel to be under the command of a US citizen. playing silly games will get your boat taken away from you, as well it should. |
It's hardly hogwash. What was stated was their nationality, not their
citizenship! And I'd guess that was determined by their language as I doubt that anyone checked their passports. I can believe that this was scarcastic, but everyone doesn't know your sense of humor. I can just imagine a non-US citizen reading this article and repeating that US citizens suggesting sending the Coast Guard to board US flagged vessels with foreigner speaking people aboard. I've been amazed at what foreign cruisers have told me that they've read on US Internet sites. Perhaps there's just as much rhetoric on non- US/non-English web sites, but since the majority of American's can't read them (myself included), we don't know. What I wonder is what protection a US documented vessel would provide a non-US citizen. -- Geoff "Jeff Morris" wrote in : Total hogwash! Have you left your brain ashore? The article never mentioned "non-English speaking," it mentioned "Slovenian nationals," which I take to imply non-US-citizens. While documentation does not require knowledge of English, it absolutely requires US citizenship. The poster described a situation where, if true, people are fraudulently claiming to be US citizens to gain some protection of traveling under a US flag. I never suggested boarding boats based on the linguistic abilities of the crew; on the contrary, I was suggesting checking out boats that were flying a US flag, nominally claiming to be US citizens. Frankly my comments were a bit sarcastic, because I doubt the practice mentioned is widespread. However, if it is common, it should be stopped because it does not bode well for those of who legitimately travel under the US flag. "Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message 7... In the article which prompted your response it was stated that US flagged vessels are being operated by non-English speaking individuals. From your statement it appears that you want to US coastguard to board these vessels based upon their language and potentially sieze them. Most people would call this "racial profiling." There's nothing in the US consitution or US Coastguard documentation regulations which requires anyone to speak English. I know plenty of Croation people who are US citizens who do not speak English. Sending a Coastguard cutter to harass non-English speaking individuals, who may be well within the law, seems to be a poor idea. As someone who cruises 7+ month per year out of the country I can assure you that the US has a poor enough world image as it is. -- Geoff "Jeff Morris" wrote in : I'm not sure what your problem is - why shouldn't the USCG be able to board a US flagged ship? Why would this offend others around the world? "Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message 7... "Jeff Morris" wrote in : However, being a US flagged vessel means that it can be boarded and searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we should send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget deficit. Another fine example of American thinking on how to make friends around the world! Then again we're doing a great job with our current policies. -- Geoff |
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Jax, I spoke (in German, after he failed to understand my English) to one of
the owners while waiting for the village post office to open on one of the small Dalmatian islands last summer, we were neighbours in the anchorage there; he said he had registered his yacht in Delaware for $100. It seems there are companies, sometimes a single lawyer, who facilitate this service. This must be a thriving business from the number of US ensigns I saw - it was clear who were genuine US boats and who were Slovenian from the size of the ensign - the latter were using smaller, courtesy flags, presumably the only type available locally. Best, BrianH JAXAshby wrote: Brian, they may be registered in say South Carlolina but they are not, can not, be US documented and operated by non-citizens. That some countries allow their citizens to register some boat with some state -- and then ignores the international conventions -- in no way means that some county -- say Brazil or Italy or Singapore -- will accept it as the same as US federal documentation. close, but a couple of points boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama, California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in that state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen to register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to pay your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by national governments of the world. There are many US registered yachts in the Adriatic - owned and sailed by Slovenian nationals; everywhere down the Croatian coast there are Ol' Glory ensigns flying on ships with no one speaking English on board. Slovenia, now a EU member state, has high import tarifs for recreational boats (to protect their own industry, Elan in particular) and many Slovenians register their new imported craft in Delaware - it's a cottage industry there. Imagine, the USA, a flag of convenience country. BrianH. |
geoffie, the US CG can and does board US flagged vessels on the high seas. if
they find such a vessel operated by nationals who are not able to speak English they will insist on seeing passports and documentation papers. this is not unreasonable. anyone operates a US flagged vessel is required to meet the requirements of operating a US flagged vessel. Geoffrey W. Schultz" Date: 9/30/2004 11:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: It's hardly hogwash. What was stated was their nationality, not their citizenship! And I'd guess that was determined by their language as I doubt that anyone checked their passports. I can believe that this was scarcastic, but everyone doesn't know your sense of humor. I can just imagine a non-US citizen reading this article and repeating that US citizens suggesting sending the Coast Guard to board US flagged vessels with foreigner speaking people aboard. I've been amazed at what foreign cruisers have told me that they've read on US Internet sites. Perhaps there's just as much rhetoric on non- US/non-English web sites, but since the majority of American's can't read them (myself included), we don't know. What I wonder is what protection a US documented vessel would provide a non-US citizen. -- Geoff "Jeff Morris" wrote in : Total hogwash! Have you left your brain ashore? The article never mentioned "non-English speaking," it mentioned "Slovenian nationals," which I take to imply non-US-citizens. While documentation does not require knowledge of English, it absolutely requires US citizenship. The poster described a situation where, if true, people are fraudulently claiming to be US citizens to gain some protection of traveling under a US flag. I never suggested boarding boats based on the linguistic abilities of the crew; on the contrary, I was suggesting checking out boats that were flying a US flag, nominally claiming to be US citizens. Frankly my comments were a bit sarcastic, because I doubt the practice mentioned is widespread. However, if it is common, it should be stopped because it does not bode well for those of who legitimately travel under the US flag. "Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message 7... In the article which prompted your response it was stated that US flagged vessels are being operated by non-English speaking individuals. From your statement it appears that you want to US coastguard to board these vessels based upon their language and potentially sieze them. Most people would call this "racial profiling." There's nothing in the US consitution or US Coastguard documentation regulations which requires anyone to speak English. I know plenty of Croation people who are US citizens who do not speak English. Sending a Coastguard cutter to harass non-English speaking individuals, who may be well within the law, seems to be a poor idea. As someone who cruises 7+ month per year out of the country I can assure you that the US has a poor enough world image as it is. -- Geoff "Jeff Morris" wrote in : I'm not sure what your problem is - why shouldn't the USCG be able to board a US flagged ship? Why would this offend others around the world? "Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message 7... "Jeff Morris" wrote in : However, being a US flagged vessel means that it can be boarded and searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we should send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget deficit. Another fine example of American thinking on how to make friends around the world! Then again we're doing a great job with our current policies. -- Geoff |
this is true, but the vessels are not US flagged.
That some countries allow their citizens to register some boat with some state -- and then ignores the international conventions -- in no way means that some county -- say Brazil or Italy or Singapore -- will accept it as the same as US federal documentation. ================================ It turns out there is a much easier, and legal, way to do this. Certain countries such as Liberia and the Cayman Islands allow non-citizens to form corporations with the help of co-operative residents who perform these services for a fee. The offshore corporation owns the boat and charters it back to who ever initiated the transaction. It's done all the time for tax and regulatory avoidance reasons. I'm told that the standard fee is in the area of 5K to10K USD. On a mega yacht where 100s of thousands in state sales tax might be due, that is a bargain. |
brian,
a.) anyone can register a boat in any state. registering is different from documenting, and b.) anyone can hoist any flag they choose on their boat. however, any boat with a US flag can legally be boarded by the USCG, at gun point if necessary, anywhere in the world. boats claiming to be US flagged but aren't can, and likely would be, siezed. that the USCG has few cutters in the area Dalmatia does not change that. c.) if the German speaking Dalmatian meant that someone formed a US corp in Delaware and then documented his boat with that corp as the owner, yes this can be done. However, the vessel still MUST be operated by aUS citizen in command. If it isn't and the USCG stops the boat the boat will be siezed and at the least the documentation will be revoked. what would you expect, dood? Jax, I spoke (in German, after he failed to understand my English) to one of the owners while waiting for the village post office to open on one of the small Dalmatian islands last summer, we were neighbours in the anchorage there; he said he had registered his yacht in Delaware for $100. It seems there are companies, sometimes a single lawyer, who facilitate this service. This must be a thriving business from the number of US ensigns I saw - it was clear who were genuine US boats and who were Slovenian from the size of the ensign - the latter were using smaller, courtesy flags, presumably the only type available locally. Best, BrianH JAXAshby wrote: Brian, they may be registered in say South Carlolina but they are not, can not, be US documented and operated by non-citizens. That some countries allow their citizens to register some boat with some state -- and then ignores the international conventions -- in no way means that some county -- say Brazil or Italy or Singapore -- will accept it as the same as US federal documentation. close, but a couple of points boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama, California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in that state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen to register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to pay your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by national governments of the world. There are many US registered yachts in the Adriatic - owned and sailed by Slovenian nationals; everywhere down the Croatian coast there are Ol' Glory ensigns flying on ships with no one speaking English on board. Slovenia, now a EU member state, has high import tarifs for recreational boats (to protect their own industry, Elan in particular) and many Slovenians register their new imported craft in Delaware - it's a cottage industry there. Imagine, the USA, a flag of convenience country. BrianH. |
"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message
. .. It's hardly hogwash. What was stated was their nationality, not their citizenship! And I'd guess that was determined by their language as I doubt that anyone checked their passports. It was pretty clear that when the poster said "Slovenian nationals" he meant Slovenian citizens. His followup confirms that. I can believe that this was scarcastic, but everyone doesn't know your sense of humor. I can just imagine a non-US citizen reading this article and repeating that US citizens suggesting sending the Coast Guard to board US flagged vessels with foreigner speaking people aboard. What if there were thousands of non-US-citizens using fake US passports? Do you think this might be of interest to Americans? I've been amazed at what foreign cruisers have told me that they've read on US Internet sites. I've been amazed by what I've read on foreign sites! Perhaps there's just as much rhetoric on non- US/non-English web sites, but since the majority of American's can't read them (myself included), we don't know. What I wonder is what protection a US documented vessel would provide a non-US citizen. We can guess a lot, if non-citizens are willing to perjure thmeselves and put their boats at risk to obtain the papers. -- Geoff "Jeff Morris" wrote in : Total hogwash! Have you left your brain ashore? The article never mentioned "non-English speaking," it mentioned "Slovenian nationals," which I take to imply non-US-citizens. While documentation does not require knowledge of English, it absolutely requires US citizenship. The poster described a situation where, if true, people are fraudulently claiming to be US citizens to gain some protection of traveling under a US flag. I never suggested boarding boats based on the linguistic abilities of the crew; on the contrary, I was suggesting checking out boats that were flying a US flag, nominally claiming to be US citizens. Frankly my comments were a bit sarcastic, because I doubt the practice mentioned is widespread. However, if it is common, it should be stopped because it does not bode well for those of who legitimately travel under the US flag. "Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message 7... In the article which prompted your response it was stated that US flagged vessels are being operated by non-English speaking individuals. From your statement it appears that you want to US coastguard to board these vessels based upon their language and potentially sieze them. Most people would call this "racial profiling." There's nothing in the US consitution or US Coastguard documentation regulations which requires anyone to speak English. I know plenty of Croation people who are US citizens who do not speak English. Sending a Coastguard cutter to harass non-English speaking individuals, who may be well within the law, seems to be a poor idea. As someone who cruises 7+ month per year out of the country I can assure you that the US has a poor enough world image as it is. -- Geoff "Jeff Morris" wrote in : I'm not sure what your problem is - why shouldn't the USCG be able to board a US flagged ship? Why would this offend others around the world? "Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message 7... "Jeff Morris" wrote in : However, being a US flagged vessel means that it can be boarded and searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we should send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget deficit. Another fine example of American thinking on how to make friends around the world! Then again we're doing a great job with our current policies. -- Geoff |
When you start posting like that its pretty clear you've lost the argument.
However, one more nail for your coffin: "What has changed is that a foreigner is now allowed to be "in command" of a U.S. documented recreational vessel. The regulations were relaxed in 1996, only for recreational vessels, and this mainly benefits those who want to bareboat charter a documented vessel to a foreigner or a U.S. citizen who has a foreign spouse or boat partner. For all other endorsements of documented vessels -- coastwise, fishing, and registry -- a U.S. citizen must still be in command" of the vessel." http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._6/ai_69233945 "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, argue with the Coast Guard. documented boats have lost their right documentation by having a non-citizen in command. jeffies, you REALLY should drop out of this discussion, for your wife is nowhere near at hand to tell you that you are a dumb cluck. "Jeff Morris" Date: 9/30/2004 10:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: Once again, jaxie is proved wrong. Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110: Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates (a) A vessel may not be employed in a trade except a trade covered by the endorsement issued for that vessel. (b) A barge qualified to be employed in the coastwise trade may be employed, without being documented, in that trade on rivers, harbors, lakes (except the Great Lakes), canals, and inland waters. (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, this has been discussed before and the problem it seems is that you don't understand what the English word "command" means in relation to a documented vessel, as the word is understood by the US Congress. First of all, jaxie doesn't understand the rules. His claim that a citizen must be on documented vessels at all times is completely bogus. It may be true for commercial fishing vessels, but not for recreational boats. jeffies is wrong on this, and it has been argued before. Again, I say. jeffies is dead wrong on this. You've made this claim before but never substantiated it. Its pretty easy to find the regs that require Fishing vessels to be command by citizens; why can't you find the regs that apply to recreational vessels? US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being operating by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command. So, you're claiming that non-citzens can't charter a documented vessel in US waters? I should be pretty easy to find a rule about that - how about it jaxie? |
"Jeff Morris" wrote in
: When you start posting like that its pretty clear you've lost the argument. However, one more nail for your coffin: "What has changed is that a foreigner is now allowed to be "in command" of a U.S. documented recreational vessel. The regulations were relaxed in 1996, only for recreational vessels, and this mainly benefits those who want to bareboat charter a documented vessel to a foreigner or a U.S. citizen who has a foreign spouse or boat partner. For all other endorsements of documented vessels -- coastwise, fishing, and registry -- a U.S. citizen must still be in command" of the vessel." http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._6/ai_69233945 Thank you for posting this. I was just about to post a question as to how US documented boats could be placed into a charter fleet where non-US citizens could command them. I see it all of the time. -- Geoff |
What would I expect? You ask, an international incident, probably. Even if
you are right it, seems to me that it would be a disproportionate action that would bring the US government into further international opprobium. A bully-boy action on a small country for something that should, certaily could, be settled by diplomacy. I am only reporting what I saw and heard - that many, many Slovenians are sailing their boats south in the Adriatic to Croatia (their own coastline is only around 50nm) where I was cruising at the time, and flying the US flag, sometimes with a number purporting to be a registration number beginning with "DL". That a Slovenian skipper/owner (not a Dalmation, that's a dog and an adjective for a Croatian archipeligo) admitted to me that he paid for US registration to circumvent his country's swingeing (according to him) tax laws on imported boats. My post was neither condoning nor condemning, merely commenting on a relevant thread. They may be contravening a US law in US waters - internationally, hmmm, I dunno; maybe you're right. BrianH. JAXAshby wrote: brian, a.) anyone can register a boat in any state. registering is different from documenting, and b.) anyone can hoist any flag they choose on their boat. however, any boat with a US flag can legally be boarded by the USCG, at gun point if necessary, anywhere in the world. boats claiming to be US flagged but aren't can, and likely would be, siezed. that the USCG has few cutters in the area Dalmatia does not change that. c.) if the German speaking Dalmatian meant that someone formed a US corp in Delaware and then documented his boat with that corp as the owner, yes this can be done. However, the vessel still MUST be operated by aUS citizen in command. If it isn't and the USCG stops the boat the boat will be siezed and at the least the documentation will be revoked. what would you expect, dood? Jax, I spoke (in German, after he failed to understand my English) to one of the owners while waiting for the village post office to open on one of the small Dalmatian islands last summer, we were neighbours in the anchorage there; he said he had registered his yacht in Delaware for $100. It seems there are companies, sometimes a single lawyer, who facilitate this service. This must be a thriving business from the number of US ensigns I saw - it was clear who were genuine US boats and who were Slovenian from the size of the ensign - the latter were using smaller, courtesy flags, presumably the only type available locally. Best, BrianH JAXAshby wrote: Brian, they may be registered in say South Carlolina but they are not, can not, be US documented and operated by non-citizens. That some countries allow their citizens to register some boat with some state -- and then ignores the international conventions -- in no way means that some county -- say Brazil or Italy or Singapore -- will accept it as the same as US federal documentation. close, but a couple of points boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama, California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in that state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen to register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to pay your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by national governments of the world. There are many US registered yachts in the Adriatic - owned and sailed by Slovenian nationals; everywhere down the Croatian coast there are Ol' Glory ensigns flying on ships with no one speaking English on board. Slovenia, now a EU member state, has high import tarifs for recreational boats (to protect their own industry, Elan in particular) and many Slovenians register their new imported craft in Delaware - it's a cottage industry there. Imagine, the USA, a flag of convenience country. BrianH. |
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