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brian, painting a Rolls-Royce symbol on a Yugo may be okay in Slovinia, but it
ain't nowhere elsein. the discussion was about a non-citizen buying a US documented boat in the US and sailing it in the US and waters around and back to Europe. he can't do that. He can fake, maybe (as your Dalmatians do for Dalmatian reasons), but he will get his boat siezed if caught by the USCG and/or seriously fine by most countried if he tries to enter on faked or forged papers. How long, brian, do *you* think *you* would last driving a Yugo with fake Dalmatian license plates around the US? What would happen when some cop Idaho stopped you and asked you for your Dalmatian driver's license, for only Dalamatians are allowed to use Dalmatian docoumented cars (if a Yugo can be called a car). What would I expect? You ask, an international incident, probably. Even if you are right it, seems to me that it would be a disproportionate action that would bring the US government into further international opprobium. A bully-boy action on a small country for something that should, certaily could, be settled by diplomacy. I am only reporting what I saw and heard - that many, many Slovenians are sailing their boats south in the Adriatic to Croatia (their own coastline is only around 50nm) where I was cruising at the time, and flying the US flag, sometimes with a number purporting to be a registration number beginning with "DL". That a Slovenian skipper/owner (not a Dalmation, that's a dog and an adjective for a Croatian archipeligo) admitted to me that he paid for US registration to circumvent his country's swingeing (according to him) tax laws on imported boats. My post was neither condoning nor condemning, merely commenting on a relevant thread. They may be contravening a US law in US waters - internationally, hmmm, I dunno; maybe you're right. BrianH. JAXAshby wrote: brian, a.) anyone can register a boat in any state. registering is different from documenting, and b.) anyone can hoist any flag they choose on their boat. however, any boat with a US flag can legally be boarded by the USCG, at gun point if necessary, anywhere in the world. boats claiming to be US flagged but aren't can, and likely would be, siezed. that the USCG has few cutters in the area Dalmatia does not change that. c.) if the German speaking Dalmatian meant that someone formed a US corp in Delaware and then documented his boat with that corp as the owner, yes this can be done. However, the vessel still MUST be operated by aUS citizen in command. If it isn't and the USCG stops the boat the boat will be siezed and at the least the documentation will be revoked. what would you expect, dood? Jax, I spoke (in German, after he failed to understand my English) to one of the owners while waiting for the village post office to open on one of the small Dalmatian islands last summer, we were neighbours in the anchorage there; he said he had registered his yacht in Delaware for $100. It seems there are companies, sometimes a single lawyer, who facilitate this service. This must be a thriving business from the number of US ensigns I saw - it was clear who were genuine US boats and who were Slovenian from the size of the ensign - the latter were using smaller, courtesy flags, presumably the only type available locally. Best, BrianH JAXAshby wrote: Brian, they may be registered in say South Carlolina but they are not, can not, be US documented and operated by non-citizens. That some countries allow their citizens to register some boat with some state -- and then ignores the international conventions -- in no way means that some county -- say Brazil or Italy or Singapore -- will accept it as the same as US federal documentation. close, but a couple of points boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama, California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in that state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen to register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to pay your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by national governments of the world. There are many US registered yachts in the Adriatic - owned and sailed by Slovenian nationals; everywhere down the Croatian coast there are Ol' Glory ensigns flying on ships with no one speaking English on board. Slovenia, now a EU member state, has high import tarifs for recreational boats (to protect their own industry, Elan in particular) and many Slovenians register their new imported craft in Delaware - it's a cottage industry there. Imagine, the USA, a flag of convenience country. BrianH. |
jeffies, you are quoting the special case far outside the original poster's
question. a legally documented vessel (say the owner is Del corp) operated on a regular and continuing basis a single operater or set of operators who are not US citizens will loose said documentation should they be caught. google again, jeffies. all night long if you wish, but check with your wife before you post again. When you start posting like that its pretty clear you've lost the argument. However, one more nail for your coffin: "What has changed is that a foreigner is now allowed to be "in command" of a U.S. documented recreational vessel. The regulations were relaxed in 1996, only for recreational vessels, and this mainly benefits those who want to bareboat charter a documented vessel to a foreigner or a U.S. citizen who has a foreign spouse or boat partner. For all other endorsements of documented vessels -- coastwise, fishing, and registry -- a U.S. citizen must still be in command" of the vessel." http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._6/ai_69233945 "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, argue with the Coast Guard. documented boats have lost their right documentation by having a non-citizen in command. jeffies, you REALLY should drop out of this discussion, for your wife is nowhere near at hand to tell you that you are a dumb cluck. "Jeff Morris" Date: 9/30/2004 10:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: Once again, jaxie is proved wrong. Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110: Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates (a) A vessel may not be employed in a trade except a trade covered by the endorsement issued for that vessel. (b) A barge qualified to be employed in the coastwise trade may be employed, without being documented, in that trade on rivers, harbors, lakes (except the Great Lakes), canals, and inland waters. (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, this has been discussed before and the problem it seems is that you don't understand what the English word "command" means in relation to a documented vessel, as the word is understood by the US Congress. First of all, jaxie doesn't understand the rules. His claim that a citizen must be on documented vessels at all times is completely bogus. It may be true for commercial fishing vessels, but not for recreational boats. jeffies is wrong on this, and it has been argued before. Again, I say. jeffies is dead wrong on this. You've made this claim before but never substantiated it. Its pretty easy to find the regs that require Fishing vessels to be command by citizens; why can't you find the regs that apply to recreational vessels? US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being operating by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command. So, you're claiming that non-citzens can't charter a documented vessel in US waters? I should be pretty easy to find a rule about that - how about it jaxie? |
You made two claims, jaxie. One that it is illegal for a non-citizen to
document a boat in the US. On this I completely agree. You also claimed, as you have several times in the past, that non-citizens cannot be in command of a US documented vessels. As I've shown several times, this is completely false - it does not apply to vessels with only a "recreational" endorsement. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, you are quoting the special case far outside the original poster's question. a legally documented vessel (say the owner is Del corp) operated on a regular and continuing basis a single operater or set of operators who are not US citizens will loose said documentation should they be caught. google again, jeffies. all night long if you wish, but check with your wife before you post again. When you start posting like that its pretty clear you've lost the argument. However, one more nail for your coffin: "What has changed is that a foreigner is now allowed to be "in command" of a U.S. documented recreational vessel. The regulations were relaxed in 1996, only for recreational vessels, and this mainly benefits those who want to bareboat charter a documented vessel to a foreigner or a U.S. citizen who has a foreign spouse or boat partner. For all other endorsements of documented vessels -- coastwise, fishing, and registry -- a U.S. citizen must still be in command" of the vessel." http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._6/ai_69233945 "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, argue with the Coast Guard. documented boats have lost their right documentation by having a non-citizen in command. jeffies, you REALLY should drop out of this discussion, for your wife is nowhere near at hand to tell you that you are a dumb cluck. "Jeff Morris" Date: 9/30/2004 10:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: Once again, jaxie is proved wrong. Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110: Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates (a) A vessel may not be employed in a trade except a trade covered by the endorsement issued for that vessel. (b) A barge qualified to be employed in the coastwise trade may be employed, without being documented, in that trade on rivers, harbors, lakes (except the Great Lakes), canals, and inland waters. (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, this has been discussed before and the problem it seems is that you don't understand what the English word "command" means in relation to a documented vessel, as the word is understood by the US Congress. First of all, jaxie doesn't understand the rules. His claim that a citizen must be on documented vessels at all times is completely bogus. It may be true for commercial fishing vessels, but not for recreational boats. jeffies is wrong on this, and it has been argued before. Again, I say. jeffies is dead wrong on this. You've made this claim before but never substantiated it. Its pretty easy to find the regs that require Fishing vessels to be command by citizens; why can't you find the regs that apply to recreational vessels? US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being operating by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command. So, you're claiming that non-citzens can't charter a documented vessel in US waters? I should be pretty easy to find a rule about that - how about it jaxie? |
A simple Google search brought up plenty of offers to register AND document
a foreign person's yacht in the USA. Seems that a company is formed (LLC, which presumably a foreigner can own) which is administered in the US and the yacht is leased to the owner who operates it as a US flagged ship. I cannot believe that al these arrangements by US companies would exist to encourage other nationals to break US law. See: http://www.corpco.com/lc_yachts.html#yacht Note the clauses headed "Delaware Registration" and "U.S. Coastguard Documentation". Best, BrianH Jeff Morris wrote: You made two claims, jaxie. One that it is illegal for a non-citizen to document a boat in the US. On this I completely agree. You also claimed, as you have several times in the past, that non-citizens cannot be in command of a US documented vessels. As I've shown several times, this is completely false - it does not apply to vessels with only a "recreational" endorsement. |
brian, that information was posted -- by me -- three days ago. notice also
that US flagged vessels must be "under the command of" a US citizen (the box of rocks stupid jeffie's singular exception for recreational vessels put in charter service). but thanks anyway. please, in the future, keep up with the discusssions, or don't post at all. "BrianH" Date: 10/2/2004 10:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: A simple Google search brought up plenty of offers to register AND document a foreign person's yacht in the USA. Seems that a company is formed (LLC, which presumably a foreigner can own) which is administered in the US and the yacht is leased to the owner who operates it as a US flagged ship. I cannot believe that al these arrangements by US companies would exist to encourage other nationals to break US law. See: http://www.corpco.com/lc_yachts.html#yacht Note the clauses headed "Delaware Registration" and "U.S. Coastguard Documentation". Best, BrianH Jeff Morris wrote: You made two claims, jaxie. One that it is illegal for a non-citizen to document a boat in the US. On this I completely agree. You also claimed, as you have several times in the past, that non-citizens cannot be in command of a US documented vessels. As I've shown several times, this is completely false - it does not apply to vessels with only a "recreational" endorsement. |
The registration is legal, I'm not so sure about the documentation. The US Code
goes on a great length describing illegal versions of foreign owned or controlled fishing vessels. However, the rules might be relaxed for recreational vessels. I note that the link you cite is a bit vague on the documentation issue. "BrianH" wrote in message ... A simple Google search brought up plenty of offers to register AND document a foreign person's yacht in the USA. Seems that a company is formed (LLC, which presumably a foreigner can own) which is administered in the US and the yacht is leased to the owner who operates it as a US flagged ship. I cannot believe that al these arrangements by US companies would exist to encourage other nationals to break US law. See: http://www.corpco.com/lc_yachts.html#yacht Note the clauses headed "Delaware Registration" and "U.S. Coastguard Documentation". Best, BrianH Jeff Morris wrote: You made two claims, jaxie. One that it is illegal for a non-citizen to document a boat in the US. On this I completely agree. You also claimed, as you have several times in the past, that non-citizens cannot be in command of a US documented vessels. As I've shown several times, this is completely false - it does not apply to vessels with only a "recreational" endorsement. |
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
... brian, that information was posted -- by me -- three days ago. notice also that US flagged vessels must be "under the command of" a US citizen (the box of rocks stupid jeffie's singular exception for recreational vessels put in charter service). You really have a reading problem jaxie, the exception is for ALL recreational vessels; charterers were simply listed as one group that would benefit; non-citizen relatives are another. |
google, little-box-of-rocks-in-training-wheels, for several hours and show us
the *EXACT* paragraph in the CG regulations where it _expressly_ states ANY and ALL documented recreational vessel may be under the command of a non-citizen at ANY time and under ANY condition. please be specific, as your claim is specific. "Jeff -- box of rocks -- Morris" Date: 10/2/2004 12:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... brian, that information was posted -- by me -- three days ago. notice also that US flagged vessels must be "under the command of" a US citizen (the box of rocks stupid jeffie's singular exception for recreational vessels put in charter service). You really have a reading problem jaxie, the exception is for ALL recreational vessels; charterers were simply listed as one group that would benefit; non-citizen relatives are another. |
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
... google, little-box-of-rocks-in-training-wheels, for several hours and show us the *EXACT* paragraph in the CG regulations where it _expressly_ states ANY and ALL documented recreational vessel may be under the command of a non-citizen at ANY time and under ANY condition. please be specific, as your claim is specific. I already did. Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110: Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. This is the last published version of the US Code, otherwise known as "The Law" The law has been updated in the last year or so, with some new sections added, including: Section 12131. Command of documented vessels A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Section 12151. Penalties .... (e) Seizure and Forfeiture of Vessels.-- (1) Grounds.--The Government may seize and forfeit a vessel (including its equipment) if-- (A) the owner of the vessel or the representative or agent of the owner knowingly falsifies or conceals a material fact, or knowingly makes a false statement or representation, about the documentation of the vessel or in applying for documentation of the vessel; (B) a certificate of documentation is knowingly and fraudulently used for the vessel; (C) the vessel is operated after its endorsement has been denied or revoked under section 12152 of this title; (D) the vessel is employed in commerce without an appropriate endorsement; (E) the vessel has only a recreational endorsement and is operated other than for pleasure; (F) the vessel is a documented vessel (except a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) and is placed under the command of a person not a citizen of the United States ... |
JAXAshby wrote:
geoffie, the US CG can and does board US flagged vessels on the high seas. Right. And the Dalmatian coast is not the hight seas until 20 or 50 or whatever number miles offshore. within that zone the US coastguard would not have any jurisdiction. Arguably neither would it have any jurisdiction on the high seas, as the high seas are not gouverned by any nation. Apart from telling everybody off, which I assume you enjoy Jax, can you tell us what OP should do to export a US registered/documented vessel, but still be able to use it over there? I dont think he is interested in flying a US flag anyway, he just wants to buy a US boat and sail it. [...] -- vriendelijke groeten/kind regards, Jelle begin msblaster.pif |
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What? You need an URL to find the United States Code? I'll give you a hint,
you can google on "United States Code" You didn't ask for an URL, you ask for a "the *EXACT* paragraph" and that's what I gave you. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... notice how box-of-boxs stupid jeffies avoided the url. box-of-rocks, check out what URL means, if you are capable. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/2/2004 4:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... google, little-box-of-rocks-in-training-wheels, for several hours and show us the *EXACT* paragraph in the CG regulations where it _expressly_ states ANY and ALL documented recreational vessel may be under the command of a non-citizen at ANY time and under ANY condition. please be specific, as your claim is specific. I already did. Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110: Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. This is the last published version of the US Code, otherwise known as "The Law" The law has been updated in the last year or so, with some new sections added, including: Section 12131. Command of documented vessels A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Section 12151. Penalties .... (e) Seizure and Forfeiture of Vessels.-- (1) Grounds.--The Government may seize and forfeit a vessel (including its equipment) if-- (A) the owner of the vessel or the representative or agent of the owner knowingly falsifies or conceals a material fact, or knowingly makes a false statement or representation, about the documentation of the vessel or in applying for documentation of the vessel; (B) a certificate of documentation is knowingly and fraudulently used for the vessel; (C) the vessel is operated after its endorsement has been denied or revoked under section 12152 of this title; (D) the vessel is employed in commerce without an appropriate endorsement; (E) the vessel has only a recreational endorsement and is operated other than for pleasure; (F) the vessel is a documented vessel (except a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) and is placed under the command of a person not a citizen of the United States ... |
IN CONTEXT, and **************NOT************************** a reprint of some
BoatsUS magazine article. you can't find it, can you jeffies, even with your wife's help. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/3/2004 8:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: What? You need an URL to find the United States Code? I'll give you a hint, you can google on "United States Code" You didn't ask for an URL, you ask for a "the *EXACT* paragraph" and that's what I gave you. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... notice how box-of-boxs stupid jeffies avoided the url. box-of-rocks, check out what URL means, if you are capable. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/2/2004 4:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... google, little-box-of-rocks-in-training-wheels, for several hours and show us the *EXACT* paragraph in the CG regulations where it _expressly_ states ANY and ALL documented recreational vessel may be under the command of a non-citizen at ANY time and under ANY condition. please be specific, as your claim is specific. I already did. Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110: Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. This is the last published version of the US Code, otherwise known as "The Law" The law has been updated in the last year or so, with some new sections added, including: Section 12131. Command of documented vessels A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Section 12151. Penalties .... (e) Seizure and Forfeiture of Vessels.-- (1) Grounds.--The Government may seize and forfeit a vessel (including its equipment) if-- (A) the owner of the vessel or the representative or agent of the owner knowingly falsifies or conceals a material fact, or knowingly makes a false statement or representation, about the documentation of the vessel or in applying for documentation of the vessel; (B) a certificate of documentation is knowingly and fraudulently used for the vessel; (C) the vessel is operated after its endorsement has been denied or revoked under section 12152 of this title; (D) the vessel is employed in commerce without an appropriate endorsement; (E) the vessel has only a recreational endorsement and is operated other than for pleasure; (F) the vessel is a documented vessel (except a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) and is placed under the command of a person not a citizen of the United States ... |
What, are you accusing me of making up parts of the US Code??? What a pathetic,
little worm you are jaxie. Finding portions of the US Code only takes a minutes, especially if you have title and section http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...:+46USC1211 0 Since the full code is only published every 6 years, the other sections aren't posted yet. Frankly, the entire title is being overhauled this session - the new wording was added last year (I think) and is also in the bill that has passed in the House and is on the Senate floor now. However, there is no substantive difference between the old version and the new on this issue. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... IN CONTEXT, and **************NOT************************** a reprint of some BoatsUS magazine article. you can't find it, can you jeffies, even with your wife's help. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/3/2004 8:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: What? You need an URL to find the United States Code? I'll give you a hint, you can google on "United States Code" You didn't ask for an URL, you ask for a "the *EXACT* paragraph" and that's what I gave you. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... notice how box-of-boxs stupid jeffies avoided the url. box-of-rocks, check out what URL means, if you are capable. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/2/2004 4:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... google, little-box-of-rocks-in-training-wheels, for several hours and show us the *EXACT* paragraph in the CG regulations where it _expressly_ states ANY and ALL documented recreational vessel may be under the command of a non-citizen at ANY time and under ANY condition. please be specific, as your claim is specific. I already did. Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110: Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. This is the last published version of the US Code, otherwise known as "The Law" The law has been updated in the last year or so, with some new sections added, including: Section 12131. Command of documented vessels A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Section 12151. Penalties .... (e) Seizure and Forfeiture of Vessels.-- (1) Grounds.--The Government may seize and forfeit a vessel (including its equipment) if-- (A) the owner of the vessel or the representative or agent of the owner knowingly falsifies or conceals a material fact, or knowingly makes a false statement or representation, about the documentation of the vessel or in applying for documentation of the vessel; (B) a certificate of documentation is knowingly and fraudulently used for the vessel; (C) the vessel is operated after its endorsement has been denied or revoked under section 12152 of this title; (D) the vessel is employed in commerce without an appropriate endorsement; (E) the vessel has only a recreational endorsement and is operated other than for pleasure; (F) the vessel is a documented vessel (except a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) and is placed under the command of a person not a citizen of the United States ... |
dummer than a box of rocks jeffies, I specifically asked you for the entire
code, for you most stupidly quoted just a part of the code to make an incorrect point. go find the entire code, dummy, or shut up. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/3/2004 11:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: What, are you accusing me of making up parts of the US Code??? What a pathetic, little worm you are jaxie. Finding portions of the US Code only takes a minutes, especially if you have title and section http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...rowse_usc&doci d=Cite:+46USC12110 Since the full code is only published every 6 years, the other sections aren't posted yet. Frankly, the entire title is being overhauled this session - the new wording was added last year (I think) and is also in the bill that has passed in the House and is on the Senate floor now. However, there is no substantive difference between the old version and the new on this issue. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... IN CONTEXT, and **************NOT************************** a reprint of some BoatsUS magazine article. you can't find it, can you jeffies, even with your wife's help. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/3/2004 8:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: What? You need an URL to find the United States Code? I'll give you a hint, you can google on "United States Code" You didn't ask for an URL, you ask for a "the *EXACT* paragraph" and that's what I gave you. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... notice how box-of-boxs stupid jeffies avoided the url. box-of-rocks, check out what URL means, if you are capable. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/2/2004 4:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... google, little-box-of-rocks-in-training-wheels, for several hours and show us the *EXACT* paragraph in the CG regulations where it _expressly_ states ANY and ALL documented recreational vessel may be under the command of a non-citizen at ANY time and under ANY condition. please be specific, as your claim is specific. I already did. Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110: Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. This is the last published version of the US Code, otherwise known as "The Law" The law has been updated in the last year or so, with some new sections added, including: Section 12131. Command of documented vessels A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Section 12151. Penalties .... (e) Seizure and Forfeiture of Vessels.-- (1) Grounds.--The Government may seize and forfeit a vessel (including its equipment) if-- (A) the owner of the vessel or the representative or agent of the owner knowingly falsifies or conceals a material fact, or knowingly makes a false statement or representation, about the documentation of the vessel or in applying for documentation of the vessel; (B) a certificate of documentation is knowingly and fraudulently used for the vessel; (C) the vessel is operated after its endorsement has been denied or revoked under section 12152 of this title; (D) the vessel is employed in commerce without an appropriate endorsement; (E) the vessel has only a recreational endorsement and is operated other than for pleasure; (F) the vessel is a documented vessel (except a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) and is placed under the command of a person not a citizen of the United States ... |
What are you talking about, jaxie??? Do you really want me to post the entire
US Code here on the newsgroup? How about this: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/uscode/browse.html Now, you can show us the part where recreational vessels must be command by citizens. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... dummer than a box of rocks jeffies, I specifically asked you for the entire code, for you most stupidly quoted just a part of the code to make an incorrect point. go find the entire code, dummy, or shut up. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/3/2004 11:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: What, are you accusing me of making up parts of the US Code??? What a pathetic, little worm you are jaxie. Finding portions of the US Code only takes a minutes, especially if you have title and section http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...rowse_usc&doci d=Cite:+46USC12110 Since the full code is only published every 6 years, the other sections aren't posted yet. Frankly, the entire title is being overhauled this session - the new wording was added last year (I think) and is also in the bill that has passed in the House and is on the Senate floor now. However, there is no substantive difference between the old version and the new on this issue. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... IN CONTEXT, and **************NOT************************** a reprint of some BoatsUS magazine article. you can't find it, can you jeffies, even with your wife's help. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/3/2004 8:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: What? You need an URL to find the United States Code? I'll give you a hint, you can google on "United States Code" You didn't ask for an URL, you ask for a "the *EXACT* paragraph" and that's what I gave you. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... notice how box-of-boxs stupid jeffies avoided the url. box-of-rocks, check out what URL means, if you are capable. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/2/2004 4:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... google, little-box-of-rocks-in-training-wheels, for several hours and show us the *EXACT* paragraph in the CG regulations where it _expressly_ states ANY and ALL documented recreational vessel may be under the command of a non-citizen at ANY time and under ANY condition. please be specific, as your claim is specific. I already did. Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110: Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. This is the last published version of the US Code, otherwise known as "The Law" The law has been updated in the last year or so, with some new sections added, including: Section 12131. Command of documented vessels A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Section 12151. Penalties .... (e) Seizure and Forfeiture of Vessels.-- (1) Grounds.--The Government may seize and forfeit a vessel (including its equipment) if-- (A) the owner of the vessel or the representative or agent of the owner knowingly falsifies or conceals a material fact, or knowingly makes a false statement or representation, about the documentation of the vessel or in applying for documentation of the vessel; (B) a certificate of documentation is knowingly and fraudulently used for the vessel; (C) the vessel is operated after its endorsement has been denied or revoked under section 12152 of this title; (D) the vessel is employed in commerce without an appropriate endorsement; (E) the vessel has only a recreational endorsement and is operated other than for pleasure; (F) the vessel is a documented vessel (except a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) and is placed under the command of a person not a citizen of the United States ... |
yes.
What are you talking about, jaxie??? Do you really want me to post the entire US Code here on the newsgroup? ask your wife to help you find it, jeffies. |
jeffies, you dumb box of rocks. here is what the CG has to say on the
subject. you dumb dung. all because you keep trying to prove wrong the high school girls of long ago who snickered every time you opened your mouth in class. WHAT VESSELS MAY BE DOCUMENTED? A vessel must measure at least five net tons and, with the exception of certain oil spill response vessels, must be wholly owned by a citizen of the U.S. WHAT ARE THE REQUIREMENTS FOR DOCUMENTATION? The basic requirements for documentation are to demonstrate ownership of the vessel, U.S. citizenship, and eligibility for the endorsement sought. HOW DO I ESTABLISH U.S. CITIZENSHIP? Citizenship is established by completion of form CG-1258. In addition to individuals, corporations, partnerships, and other entities capable of holding legal title may be deemed citizens for documentation purposes. Corporations must be registered in a state or the U.S; the chief executive officer and chairman of the board of directors must be U.S. citizens, and no more than a minority of the number of directors necessary to constitute a quorum may be non-citizens WHY DOES THE COAST GUARD REQUIRE DESIGNATION OF A MANAGING OWNER? Many vessels have more than one owner. To make sure that the right person gets mail concerning the vessel, one must be designated as the managing owner. |
Why don't you post the U.S. Code, Bozo. Perhaps then you could prove your
point! "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... | yes. | | What are you talking about, jaxie??? Do you really want me to post the | entire | US Code here on the newsgroup? | | ask your wife to help you find it, jeffies. |
Why don't you post the U.S. Code, Bozo. Perhaps then you could prove your
point! I was trying to point out, as I did conclusively, that dumb as a box of rocks jeffies found a single paragraph in a BoatsUS mag article and used that quote to "prove" an incorrect point. jeffies spends hours each and every day trying o prove he really, really, really isn't THAT dumb that his wife has to balance the checkbook, even tho she does. |
And where does this talk about being in command? This discussion is not about
ownership, its about your claim that the operator of a US-documented vessel must be a US citizen. I've agreed, number of times, that owners must be citizens, and that's all this web site talks about. As I've pointed out, the US Code, otherwise known as "the law," specifically says that a recreational vessel may be commanded by a non-citizen. The Boat/US article was simply confirming what I had already posted, but it also explains that a decade ago, the law was different, and recreational were not excluded from the "citizen in command" requirement. The current law, one more time: Title 46 Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Under the new law, which passed the House last week, this will be Section 12131, with the wording: A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, you dumb box of rocks. here is what the CG has to say on the subject. you dumb dung. all because you keep trying to prove wrong the high school girls of long ago who snickered every time you opened your mouth in class. WHAT VESSELS MAY BE DOCUMENTED? A vessel must measure at least five net tons and, with the exception of certain oil spill response vessels, must be wholly owned by a citizen of the U.S. WHAT ARE THE REQUIREMENTS FOR DOCUMENTATION? The basic requirements for documentation are to demonstrate ownership of the vessel, U.S. citizenship, and eligibility for the endorsement sought. HOW DO I ESTABLISH U.S. CITIZENSHIP? Citizenship is established by completion of form CG-1258. In addition to individuals, corporations, partnerships, and other entities capable of holding legal title may be deemed citizens for documentation purposes. Corporations must be registered in a state or the U.S; the chief executive officer and chairman of the board of directors must be U.S. citizens, and no more than a minority of the number of directors necessary to constitute a quorum may be non-citizens WHY DOES THE COAST GUARD REQUIRE DESIGNATION OF A MANAGING OWNER? Many vessels have more than one owner. To make sure that the right person gets mail concerning the vessel, one must be designated as the managing owner. |
jefies, you are lost to this world. even your wife is shaking her head at your
stupidity. yo-yo, the non-citizen trying to document/operate a documented boat will lose his boat if caught by the CG. if he documented the boat illegally, then operated it, he would lose it. If you faked documentend then operated it he would lose it. If he fraudulently had a third party claim ownership and/or ownership of a US company and then operated the boat he would lose it if caught. if he claimed chartership but he was the only charterer he would lose the boat. he can charter/operate *your* documented boat, unless of course *you* used his money to buy the boat and he then operated it. jeffies, you are dummer than a box of rocks and the girls in high school who laughed at you have long since forgotten you, even if you haven't forgotten them. now, jeffies, go whimper on your wife's shoulder about all those bad boy jocks making fun of you because you have to think for a some time before you remember that two dimes and nickle make a quarter. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/3/2004 7:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: And where does this talk about being in command? This discussion is not about ownership, its about your claim that the operator of a US-documented vessel must be a US citizen. I've agreed, number of times, that owners must be citizens, and that's all this web site talks about. As I've pointed out, the US Code, otherwise known as "the law," specifically says that a recreational vessel may be commanded by a non-citizen. The Boat/US article was simply confirming what I had already posted, but it also explains that a decade ago, the law was different, and recreational were not excluded from the "citizen in command" requirement. The current law, one more time: Title 46 Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Under the new law, which passed the House last week, this will be Section 12131, with the wording: A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, you dumb box of rocks. here is what the CG has to say on the subject. you dumb dung. all because you keep trying to prove wrong the high school girls of long ago who snickered every time you opened your mouth in class. WHAT VESSELS MAY BE DOCUMENTED? A vessel must measure at least five net tons and, with the exception of certain oil spill response vessels, must be wholly owned by a citizen of the U.S. WHAT ARE THE REQUIREMENTS FOR DOCUMENTATION? The basic requirements for documentation are to demonstrate ownership of the vessel, U.S. citizenship, and eligibility for the endorsement sought. HOW DO I ESTABLISH U.S. CITIZENSHIP? Citizenship is established by completion of form CG-1258. In addition to individuals, corporations, partnerships, and other entities capable of holding legal title may be deemed citizens for documentation purposes. Corporations must be registered in a state or the U.S; the chief executive officer and chairman of the board of directors must be U.S. citizens, and no more than a minority of the number of directors necessary to constitute a quorum may be non-citizens WHY DOES THE COAST GUARD REQUIRE DESIGNATION OF A MANAGING OWNER? Many vessels have more than one owner. To make sure that the right person gets mail concerning the vessel, one must be designated as the managing owner. |
Jaxie, what are you babbling about? This has nothing to do with ownership. It
has nothing to do with "faked" documentation. It has nothing to with non-citizens trying to circumvent the law. Its very simple. A citizen buys a boat and has it documented, with Recreational endorsement. His spouse, a non-citizen, takes the boat for a day sail and is subjected to a routine boarding ("safety inspection") by the Coast Guard. You have claimed the boat can be seized because it is operated by a non-citizen. The law is quite clear, however; there is no problem in this case. It is also legal to loan the boat to a non-citizen, or to bare-boat charter it. There are two separate issues here. You claimed many times it was illegal for a non-citizen to be in command of a documented recreational vessel. That is clearly false. Now it appears you were so confused you didn't even know what you were talking about! "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jefies, you are lost to this world. even your wife is shaking her head at your stupidity. yo-yo, the non-citizen trying to document/operate a documented boat will lose his boat if caught by the CG. if he documented the boat illegally, then operated it, he would lose it. If you faked documentend then operated it he would lose it. If he fraudulently had a third party claim ownership and/or ownership of a US company and then operated the boat he would lose it if caught. if he claimed chartership but he was the only charterer he would lose the boat. he can charter/operate *your* documented boat, unless of course *you* used his money to buy the boat and he then operated it. jeffies, you are dummer than a box of rocks and the girls in high school who laughed at you have long since forgotten you, even if you haven't forgotten them. now, jeffies, go whimper on your wife's shoulder about all those bad boy jocks making fun of you because you have to think for a some time before you remember that two dimes and nickle make a quarter. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/3/2004 7:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: And where does this talk about being in command? This discussion is not about ownership, its about your claim that the operator of a US-documented vessel must be a US citizen. I've agreed, number of times, that owners must be citizens, and that's all this web site talks about. As I've pointed out, the US Code, otherwise known as "the law," specifically says that a recreational vessel may be commanded by a non-citizen. The Boat/US article was simply confirming what I had already posted, but it also explains that a decade ago, the law was different, and recreational were not excluded from the "citizen in command" requirement. The current law, one more time: Title 46 Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Under the new law, which passed the House last week, this will be Section 12131, with the wording: A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, you dumb box of rocks. here is what the CG has to say on the subject. you dumb dung. all because you keep trying to prove wrong the high school girls of long ago who snickered every time you opened your mouth in class. WHAT VESSELS MAY BE DOCUMENTED? A vessel must measure at least five net tons and, with the exception of certain oil spill response vessels, must be wholly owned by a citizen of the U.S. WHAT ARE THE REQUIREMENTS FOR DOCUMENTATION? The basic requirements for documentation are to demonstrate ownership of the vessel, U.S. citizenship, and eligibility for the endorsement sought. HOW DO I ESTABLISH U.S. CITIZENSHIP? Citizenship is established by completion of form CG-1258. In addition to individuals, corporations, partnerships, and other entities capable of holding legal title may be deemed citizens for documentation purposes. Corporations must be registered in a state or the U.S; the chief executive officer and chairman of the board of directors must be U.S. citizens, and no more than a minority of the number of directors necessary to constitute a quorum may be non-citizens WHY DOES THE COAST GUARD REQUIRE DESIGNATION OF A MANAGING OWNER? Many vessels have more than one owner. To make sure that the right person gets mail concerning the vessel, one must be designated as the managing owner. |
Jaxie, what are you babbling about? This has nothing to do with ownership.
It has nothing to do with "faked" documentation. It has nothing to with non-citizens trying to circumvent the law. jeffies, you are too stew ped to read the header on this thread. stop embarrassing your wife. |
On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:52:05 -0400, "Jeff Morris"
wrote: The current law, one more time: Title 46 Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Under the new law, which passed the House last week, this will be Section 12131, with the wording: A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Jeff: Some folks have difficulties with double negatives and legalese. How about easing the burden with a translation of Title 46, Sec 12110 para d) - something like this for example: " A documented vessel with only a recreational endorsement may be placed under the command of a non-citizen of the United States." Brian W |
I don't write them! I tried to put it in simple English, but jaxie insisted on
the exact paragraph in the law. The thought the Boat/US magazine article was pretty clear. "Brian Whatcott" wrote in message ... On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:52:05 -0400, "Jeff Morris" wrote: The current law, one more time: Title 46 Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Under the new law, which passed the House last week, this will be Section 12131, with the wording: A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Jeff: Some folks have difficulties with double negatives and legalese. How about easing the burden with a translation of Title 46, Sec 12110 para d) - something like this for example: " A documented vessel with only a recreational endorsement may be placed under the command of a non-citizen of the United States." Brian W |
I am currently cruising in Australia and read the above thread in a yacht club
in company with a group of Oz yachties who were amused by JAX's postings. One commented ..."That JAX must have been born with two penises." When I looked puzzled he explained ... "JAX couldn't get that silly playing with one." Fair winds Graeme |
jeffies, you in fact ignored -- or were utterly ignorant of -- the issue. a
non-citizen can NOT be the primary operator of a documented vessel, because to be so clearly makes of sham of any claim of non-ownership of the vessel. That is why I pushed you to come up with the complete code, and you were not able to do so. In the end, I produced the information. Even now, I doubt you understand what it says, as witness your dumb cluck statement below. note, box of rocks, the use of the term primary. ask your wife to explain it to you. From: "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/3/2004 11:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: I don't write them! I tried to put it in simple English, but jaxie insisted on the exact paragraph in the law. The thought the Boat/US magazine article was pretty clear. "Brian Whatcott" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:52:05 -0400, "Jeff Morris" wrote: The current law, one more time: Title 46 Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Under the new law, which passed the House last week, this will be Section 12131, with the wording: A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Jeff: Some folks have difficulties with double negatives and legalese. How about easing the burden with a translation of Title 46, Sec 12110 para d) - something like this for example: " A documented vessel with only a recreational endorsement may be placed under the command of a non-citizen of the United States." Brian W |
|
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
... jeffies, you in fact ignored -- or were utterly ignorant of -- the issue. a non-citizen can NOT be the primary operator of a documented vessel, because to be so clearly makes of sham of any claim of non-ownership of the vessel. Are you actually claiming that the operator of a vessel is the same as the owner of a vessel??? You're trying to backpedal out of this by shifting the meaning of "operator" from the person in command to the actual owner. But in various previous posts you were quite explicit in your claim that a citizen must be on board and in command at all times: "US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being operating by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command." "wanna hand your documented vessel over to a non-citizen for a couple hours off a CG station? Let me know ahead of time and I will arrange a welcoming committee." As I've shown, it is perfectly legal for a vessel with only a recreational endorsement to be loaned or chartered to a non-citizen. I've shown the actual law, and some commentary on it from a major insurance company. All you've shown is a CG site that never addresses the issue of who can or cannot be in command. I gave you the link to the US Code, feel free to search it for anything that supports you position. What you'll find is a lot of law that puts restrictions on commercial vessels, especially fishing vessels. But recreational vessels are specifically excluded. Remember, this discussion has nothing to do with the original poster; it is entirely about your false claim that a citizen must be onboard and in command at all times. That is why I pushed you to come up with the complete code, and you were not able to do so. In the end, I produced the information. Even now, I doubt you understand what it says, as witness your dumb cluck statement below. note, box of rocks, the use of the term primary. ask your wife to explain it to you. From: "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/3/2004 11:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: I don't write them! I tried to put it in simple English, but jaxie insisted on the exact paragraph in the law. The thought the Boat/US magazine article was pretty clear. "Brian Whatcott" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:52:05 -0400, "Jeff Morris" wrote: The current law, one more time: Title 46 Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Under the new law, which passed the House last week, this will be Section 12131, with the wording: A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Jeff: Some folks have difficulties with double negatives and legalese. How about easing the burden with a translation of Title 46, Sec 12110 para d) - something like this for example: " A documented vessel with only a recreational endorsement may be placed under the command of a non-citizen of the United States." Brian W |
Jeff,
You need to realize that you're driving this argument into the ground. I believe that the only person that is taking any exception to this is JAXhole. Just ignore him. Better yet, place him into your kill file. You won't see any more posts from him. Unfortunately people will quote him in their replies, but hey, what can you do? I've kill filed him and haven't found the news group any less useful. As a matter of a fact, it's better. JAXhole has no concept of normal social dialog. His standard method of discourse is to demean people over and over. No one needs that. Unfortunately he's one of the breed of anonymous Internet posters who acts this way. I googled the new groups and found that he's had over 2,200 posts in the last 6 months into sailing new groups. You can't have much of a social or cruising life if you're spending that much time posting. Then again, if his face to face interactions are as rude as his postings, who would want to be around him? So do yourself a favor and ignore the guy. Kill file him and end this useless fight. You clearly have fact on your side. -- Geoff |
Geoff,
I generally ignore jaxie, but there are times when his misinformation does a true disservice to the boating community. For instance, any lurker might believe, or pass on, his false claim that citizen must always be onboard a documented vessel. In fact, that was true a decade ago, so the claim has a "ring of truth" to it. However, the law has been long changed. Anyone who feels that this issue may be important to them, should check with the CG to verify my claim. While I agree with your assessment of jaxie, at least he mainly discusses boating issues, so he's a big step above the idiots who flood other boating forums with political nonsense. "Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message . .. Jeff, You need to realize that you're driving this argument into the ground. I believe that the only person that is taking any exception to this is JAXhole. Just ignore him. Better yet, place him into your kill file. You won't see any more posts from him. Unfortunately people will quote him in their replies, but hey, what can you do? I've kill filed him and haven't found the news group any less useful. As a matter of a fact, it's better. JAXhole has no concept of normal social dialog. His standard method of discourse is to demean people over and over. No one needs that. Unfortunately he's one of the breed of anonymous Internet posters who acts this way. I googled the new groups and found that he's had over 2,200 posts in the last 6 months into sailing new groups. You can't have much of a social or cruising life if you're spending that much time posting. Then again, if his face to face interactions are as rude as his postings, who would want to be around him? So do yourself a favor and ignore the guy. Kill file him and end this useless fight. You clearly have fact on your side. -- Geoff |
Geoffrey W. Schultz wrote:
Jeff, Better yet, place him into your kill file. You won't see any more posts from him. Unfortunately people will quote him in their replies, but hey, what can you do? I've kill filed him and haven't found the news group any less useful. As a matter of a fact, it's better. Amen, I did that as soon as I saw where the rant was going and the language being used. JAXhole has no concept of normal social dialog. His standard method of discourse is to demean people over and over. I noticed that, with much surprise as a newbie here. I am amazed how Jeff can be as civil as he is with such gratuitous invective directed at him. I'm sorry I even contributed and perhaps encouraged the direction of the thread. Regards, BrianH |
jeffies, this discussion was about a non-citizen operating a documented vesse.
operation of a vessel exclusively or nearly exclusively be a single non-citizen or a single group of closely associated non-citizens clearly is a violation and the boat will be sieze if caught. you, jeffies -- trying against all hope to stop the memories of all those girls in high school laughing at your stupidity -- are looking for a way out of the discussion exception. jeffies, those girls who laughed at you can't even remember your name, and wouldn't care in the slightest if someone told them. jeffies, you have to intrinsic value to society. get used to it. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/4/2004 9:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, you in fact ignored -- or were utterly ignorant of -- the issue. a non-citizen can NOT be the primary operator of a documented vessel, because to be so clearly makes of sham of any claim of non-ownership of the vessel. Are you actually claiming that the operator of a vessel is the same as the owner of a vessel??? You're trying to backpedal out of this by shifting the meaning of "operator" from the person in command to the actual owner. But in various previous posts you were quite explicit in your claim that a citizen must be on board and in command at all times: "US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being operating by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command." "wanna hand your documented vessel over to a non-citizen for a couple hours off a CG station? Let me know ahead of time and I will arrange a welcoming committee." As I've shown, it is perfectly legal for a vessel with only a recreational endorsement to be loaned or chartered to a non-citizen. I've shown the actual law, and some commentary on it from a major insurance company. All you've shown is a CG site that never addresses the issue of who can or cannot be in command. I gave you the link to the US Code, feel free to search it for anything that supports you position. What you'll find is a lot of law that puts restrictions on commercial vessels, especially fishing vessels. But recreational vessels are specifically excluded. Remember, this discussion has nothing to do with the original poster; it is entirely about your false claim that a citizen must be onboard and in command at all times. That is why I pushed you to come up with the complete code, and you were not able to do so. In the end, I produced the information. Even now, I doubt you understand what it says, as witness your dumb cluck statement below. note, box of rocks, the use of the term primary. ask your wife to explain it to you. From: "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/3/2004 11:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: I don't write them! I tried to put it in simple English, but jaxie insisted on the exact paragraph in the law. The thought the Boat/US magazine article was pretty clear. "Brian Whatcott" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:52:05 -0400, "Jeff Morris" wrote: The current law, one more time: Title 46 Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Under the new law, which passed the House last week, this will be Section 12131, with the wording: A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Jeff: Some folks have difficulties with double negatives and legalese. How about easing the burden with a translation of Title 46, Sec 12110 para d) - something like this for example: " A documented vessel with only a recreational endorsement may be placed under the command of a non-citizen of the United States." Brian W |
As I said in my first post, your claim the non-citizens could not legally
circumvent the law with some ownership fiction was correct. The discussion since that point has been about the case where the ownership is properly established, but a non-citizen is in command. On that topic, you were dead wrong; you're admitting as much with your backpedaling. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, this discussion was about a non-citizen operating a documented vesse. operation of a vessel exclusively or nearly exclusively be a single non-citizen or a single group of closely associated non-citizens clearly is a violation and the boat will be sieze if caught. you, jeffies -- trying against all hope to stop the memories of all those girls in high school laughing at your stupidity -- are looking for a way out of the discussion exception. jeffies, those girls who laughed at you can't even remember your name, and wouldn't care in the slightest if someone told them. jeffies, you have to intrinsic value to society. get used to it. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/4/2004 9:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, you in fact ignored -- or were utterly ignorant of -- the issue. a non-citizen can NOT be the primary operator of a documented vessel, because to be so clearly makes of sham of any claim of non-ownership of the vessel. Are you actually claiming that the operator of a vessel is the same as the owner of a vessel??? You're trying to backpedal out of this by shifting the meaning of "operator" from the person in command to the actual owner. But in various previous posts you were quite explicit in your claim that a citizen must be on board and in command at all times: "US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being operating by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command." "wanna hand your documented vessel over to a non-citizen for a couple hours off a CG station? Let me know ahead of time and I will arrange a welcoming committee." As I've shown, it is perfectly legal for a vessel with only a recreational endorsement to be loaned or chartered to a non-citizen. I've shown the actual law, and some commentary on it from a major insurance company. All you've shown is a CG site that never addresses the issue of who can or cannot be in command. I gave you the link to the US Code, feel free to search it for anything that supports you position. What you'll find is a lot of law that puts restrictions on commercial vessels, especially fishing vessels. But recreational vessels are specifically excluded. Remember, this discussion has nothing to do with the original poster; it is entirely about your false claim that a citizen must be onboard and in command at all times. That is why I pushed you to come up with the complete code, and you were not able to do so. In the end, I produced the information. Even now, I doubt you understand what it says, as witness your dumb cluck statement below. note, box of rocks, the use of the term primary. ask your wife to explain it to you. From: "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/3/2004 11:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: I don't write them! I tried to put it in simple English, but jaxie insisted on the exact paragraph in the law. The thought the Boat/US magazine article was pretty clear. "Brian Whatcott" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:52:05 -0400, "Jeff Morris" wrote: The current law, one more time: Title 46 Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Under the new law, which passed the House last week, this will be Section 12131, with the wording: A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Jeff: Some folks have difficulties with double negatives and legalese. How about easing the burden with a translation of Title 46, Sec 12110 para d) - something like this for example: " A documented vessel with only a recreational endorsement may be placed under the command of a non-citizen of the United States." Brian W |
"BrianH" wrote in message ... Geoffrey W. Schultz wrote: Jeff, Better yet, place him into your kill file. You won't see any more posts from him. Unfortunately people will quote him in their replies, but hey, what can you do? I've kill filed him and haven't found the news group any less useful. As a matter of a fact, it's better. Amen, I did that as soon as I saw where the rant was going and the language being used. JAXhole has no concept of normal social dialog. His standard method of discourse is to demean people over and over. I noticed that, with much surprise as a newbie here. I am amazed how Jeff can be as civil as he is with such gratuitous invective directed at him. We've learned to ignore that side of jaxie; he has Tourette's Syndrome. As I've said, I wouldn't have bothered to stay this far if there had not been an important legal issue here. I'm sorry I even contributed and perhaps encouraged the direction of the thread. Actually, this was interesting - One point that surprised me was that the law allowing non-citizens to be in command was changed less than 10 years ago. Before that, for instance, it would not have been legal for a Canadian to do a bare-boat charter on a documented vessel from Hinckley. |
Jeff Morris wrote:
"BrianH" wrote in message ... Geoffrey W. Schultz wrote: Jeff, Better yet, place him into your kill file. . I am amazed how Jeff can be as civil as he is with such gratuitous invective directed at him. We've learned to ignore that side of jaxie; he has Tourette's Syndrome. I had to look that one up .... "Behavioral and Developmental - Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, obsessions and compulsions, emotional lability, irritability, impulsivity, aggressivity, and self-injurious behaviors; varied learning disabilities. " Ah, well, okay - even so, it's not necessary to see such vitriolic rudeness and blind refusal to accept another's point of view with wild, irrelevant ramblings - ergo plonk. I'm sorry I even contributed and perhaps encouraged the direction of the thread. Actually, this was interesting - One point that surprised me was that the law allowing non-citizens to be in command was changed less than 10 years ago. Before that, for instance, it would not have been legal for a Canadian to do a bare-boat charter on a documented vessel from Hinckley. To belabor a point, probably the Slovenes have registered but not documented their craft and that is enough for the authorities in Ljubljana to accept - perhaps not knowing of the subtle double procedure. How else could someone have a US flagged ship for $100 (if my informant was honest about his transaction)? That then begs the question of their true status when cruising into other nations' waters. The advertisement I cited was, as you mentioned, extremely vague about how documentation for foreigners was accomplished. Perhaps it circumvented the letter of the law but the spirit is clearly violated in some shady way and they do not want to advertise it. Best, BrianH. |
jeffies, until five days after this discussion started you were still claiming
that properly ducumented vessels could be operated by a non-citizen under any circumstance and under all condition. this is not true. a *casual* non-citizen user can under *some* conditions. Even then, jeffies, you could not produce the specifics, except by a suspect reference in a single BoatsUS mag article, said article missing a major portion of the law. if I had not done the work you claimed to have done, you would STILL be arguing that ANY duc vessel can be used by ANY non-citizen under ANY and ALL conditions, as you were up to that point arguing. All, jeffies, because you hear those little girls voices laughing from high school days. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/5/2004 12:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: As I said in my first post, your claim the non-citizens could not legally circumvent the law with some ownership fiction was correct. The discussion since that point has been about the case where the ownership is properly established, but a non-citizen is in command. On that topic, you were dead wrong; you're admitting as much with your backpedaling. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, this discussion was about a non-citizen operating a documented vesse. operation of a vessel exclusively or nearly exclusively be a single non-citizen or a single group of closely associated non-citizens clearly is a violation and the boat will be sieze if caught. you, jeffies -- trying against all hope to stop the memories of all those girls in high school laughing at your stupidity -- are looking for a way out of the discussion exception. jeffies, those girls who laughed at you can't even remember your name, and wouldn't care in the slightest if someone told them. jeffies, you have to intrinsic value to society. get used to it. "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/4/2004 9:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... jeffies, you in fact ignored -- or were utterly ignorant of -- the issue. a non-citizen can NOT be the primary operator of a documented vessel, because to be so clearly makes of sham of any claim of non-ownership of the vessel. Are you actually claiming that the operator of a vessel is the same as the owner of a vessel??? You're trying to backpedal out of this by shifting the meaning of "operator" from the person in command to the actual owner. But in various previous posts you were quite explicit in your claim that a citizen must be on board and in command at all times: "US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being operating by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command." "wanna hand your documented vessel over to a non-citizen for a couple hours off a CG station? Let me know ahead of time and I will arrange a welcoming committee." As I've shown, it is perfectly legal for a vessel with only a recreational endorsement to be loaned or chartered to a non-citizen. I've shown the actual law, and some commentary on it from a major insurance company. All you've shown is a CG site that never addresses the issue of who can or cannot be in command. I gave you the link to the US Code, feel free to search it for anything that supports you position. What you'll find is a lot of law that puts restrictions on commercial vessels, especially fishing vessels. But recreational vessels are specifically excluded. Remember, this discussion has nothing to do with the original poster; it is entirely about your false claim that a citizen must be onboard and in command at all times. That is why I pushed you to come up with the complete code, and you were not able to do so. In the end, I produced the information. Even now, I doubt you understand what it says, as witness your dumb cluck statement below. note, box of rocks, the use of the term primary. ask your wife to explain it to you. From: "Jeff Morris" Date: 10/3/2004 11:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: I don't write them! I tried to put it in simple English, but jaxie insisted on the exact paragraph in the law. The thought the Boat/US magazine article was pretty clear. "Brian Whatcott" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:52:05 -0400, "Jeff Morris" wrote: The current law, one more time: Title 46 Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates ... (c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be operated other than for pleasure. (d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Under the new law, which passed the House last week, this will be Section 12131, with the wording: A documented vessel (other than a vessel with only a recreational endorsement) may be placed under the command only of a citizen of the United States. Jeff: Some folks have difficulties with double negatives and legalese. How about easing the burden with a translation of Title 46, Sec 12110 para d) - something like this for example: " A documented vessel with only a recreational endorsement may be placed under the command of a non-citizen of the United States." Brian W |
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