On 01 Oct 2004 01:18:33 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

That some countries allow their citizens to register some boat with some state
-- and then ignores the international conventions -- in no way means that some
county -- say Brazil or Italy or Singapore -- will accept it as the same as US
federal documentation.

================================

It turns out there is a much easier, and legal, way to do this.
Certain countries such as Liberia and the Cayman Islands allow
non-citizens to form corporations with the help of co-operative
residents who perform these services for a fee. The offshore
corporation owns the boat and charters it back to who ever initiated
the transaction.

It's done all the time for tax and regulatory avoidance reasons. I'm
told that the standard fee is in the area of 5K to10K USD. On a mega
yacht where 100s of thousands in state sales tax might be due, that is
a bargain.

Jax, I spoke (in German, after he failed to understand my English) to one of
the owners while waiting for the village post office to open on one of the
small Dalmatian islands last summer, we were neighbours in the anchorage
there; he said he had registered his yacht in Delaware for $100. It seems
there are companies, sometimes a single lawyer, who facilitate this service.

This must be a thriving business from the number of US ensigns I saw - it
was clear who were genuine US boats and who were Slovenian from the size of
the ensign - the latter were using smaller, courtesy flags, presumably the
only type available locally.

Best,

BrianH


JAXAshby wrote:
Brian, they may be registered in say South Carlolina but they are
not, can not, be US documented and operated by non-citizens.

That some countries allow their citizens to register some boat with
some state
-- and then ignores the international conventions -- in no way means
that some county -- say Brazil or Italy or Singapore -- will accept
it as the same as US federal documentation.

close, but a couple of points

boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama,
California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in
that
state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen
to register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to
pay
your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by national
governments of the world.


There are many US registered yachts in the Adriatic - owned and
sailed by Slovenian nationals; everywhere down the Croatian coast
there are Ol' Glory ensigns flying on ships with no one speaking
English on board.

Slovenia, now a EU member state, has high import tarifs for
recreational
boats (to protect their own industry, Elan in particular) and many
Slovenians register their new imported craft in Delaware - it's a
cottage industry there.

Imagine, the USA, a flag of convenience country.

BrianH.

geoffie, the US CG can and does board US flagged vessels on the high seas. if
they find such a vessel operated by nationals who are not able to speak English
they will insist on seeing passports and documentation papers. this is not
unreasonable. anyone operates a US flagged vessel is required to meet the
requirements of operating a US flagged vessel.

Geoffrey W. Schultz"
Date: 9/30/2004 11:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

It's hardly hogwash. What was stated was their nationality, not their
citizenship! And I'd guess that was determined by their language as I
doubt that anyone checked their passports.

I can believe that this was scarcastic, but everyone doesn't know your
sense of humor. I can just imagine a non-US citizen reading this
article and repeating that US citizens suggesting sending the Coast
Guard to board US flagged vessels with foreigner speaking people aboard.
I've been amazed at what foreign cruisers have told me that they've read
on US Internet sites. Perhaps there's just as much rhetoric on non-
US/non-English web sites, but since the majority of American's can't
read them (myself included), we don't know.

What I wonder is what protection a US documented vessel would provide a
non-US citizen.

-- Geoff

"Jeff Morris" wrote in
:

Total hogwash! Have you left your brain ashore?

The article never mentioned "non-English speaking," it mentioned
"Slovenian nationals," which I take to imply non-US-citizens. While
documentation does not require knowledge of English, it absolutely
requires US citizenship. The poster described a situation where, if
true, people are fraudulently claiming to be US citizens to gain some
protection of traveling under a US flag.

I never suggested boarding boats based on the linguistic abilities of
the crew; on the contrary, I was suggesting checking out boats that
were flying a US flag, nominally claiming to be US citizens.

Frankly my comments were a bit sarcastic, because I doubt the practice
mentioned is widespread. However, if it is common, it should be
stopped because it does not bode well for those of who legitimately
travel under the US flag.







"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message
7...
In the article which prompted your response it was stated that US
flagged vessels are being operated by non-English speaking
individuals. From your statement it appears that you want to US
coastguard to board these vessels based upon their language and
potentially sieze them. Most people would call this "racial
profiling."

There's nothing in the US consitution or US Coastguard documentation
regulations which requires anyone to speak English. I know plenty of
Croation people who are US citizens who do not speak English.
Sending a Coastguard cutter to harass non-English speaking
individuals, who may be well within the law, seems to be a poor idea.
As someone who cruises 7+ month per year out of the country I can
assure you that the US has a poor enough world image as it is.

-- Geoff

"Jeff Morris" wrote in
:

I'm not sure what your problem is - why shouldn't the USCG be able
to board a US flagged ship? Why would this offend others around
the world?


"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message
7...
"Jeff Morris" wrote in
:

However, being a US flagged vessel means that it can be boarded
and searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we
should send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget
deficit.

Another fine example of American thinking on how to make friends
around the world! Then again we're doing a great job with our
current policies.

-- Geoff

this is true, but the vessels are not US flagged.

That some countries allow their citizens to register some boat with some
state
-- and then ignores the international conventions -- in no way means that
some
county -- say Brazil or Italy or Singapore -- will accept it as the same as
US
federal documentation.

================================

It turns out there is a much easier, and legal, way to do this.
Certain countries such as Liberia and the Cayman Islands allow
non-citizens to form corporations with the help of co-operative
residents who perform these services for a fee. The offshore
corporation owns the boat and charters it back to who ever initiated
the transaction.

It's done all the time for tax and regulatory avoidance reasons. I'm
told that the standard fee is in the area of 5K to10K USD. On a mega
yacht where 100s of thousands in state sales tax might be due, that is
a bargain.

brian,

a.) anyone can register a boat in any state. registering is different from
documenting, and

b.) anyone can hoist any flag they choose on their boat. however, any boat
with a US flag can legally be boarded by the USCG, at gun point if necessary,
anywhere in the world. boats claiming to be US flagged but aren't can, and
likely would be, siezed. that the USCG has few cutters in the area Dalmatia
does not change that.

c.) if the German speaking Dalmatian meant that someone formed a US corp in
Delaware and then documented his boat with that corp as the owner, yes this can
be done. However, the vessel still MUST be operated by aUS citizen in command.
If it isn't and the USCG stops the boat the boat will be siezed and at the
least the documentation will be revoked.

what would you expect, dood?

Jax, I spoke (in German, after he failed to understand my English) to one of
the owners while waiting for the village post office to open on one of the
small Dalmatian islands last summer, we were neighbours in the anchorage
there; he said he had registered his yacht in Delaware for $100. It seems
there are companies, sometimes a single lawyer, who facilitate this service.

This must be a thriving business from the number of US ensigns I saw - it
was clear who were genuine US boats and who were Slovenian from the size of
the ensign - the latter were using smaller, courtesy flags, presumably the
only type available locally.

Best,

BrianH


JAXAshby wrote:
Brian, they may be registered in say South Carlolina but they are
not, can not, be US documented and operated by non-citizens.

That some countries allow their citizens to register some boat with
some state
-- and then ignores the international conventions -- in no way means
that some county -- say Brazil or Italy or Singapore -- will accept
it as the same as US federal documentation.

close, but a couple of points

boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama,
California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in
that
state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen
to register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to
pay
your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by national
governments of the world.


There are many US registered yachts in the Adriatic - owned and
sailed by Slovenian nationals; everywhere down the Croatian coast
there are Ol' Glory ensigns flying on ships with no one speaking
English on board.

Slovenia, now a EU member state, has high import tarifs for
recreational
boats (to protect their own industry, Elan in particular) and many
Slovenians register their new imported craft in Delaware - it's a
cottage industry there.

Imagine, the USA, a flag of convenience country.

BrianH.

"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message
. ..
It's hardly hogwash. What was stated was their nationality, not their
citizenship! And I'd guess that was determined by their language as I
doubt that anyone checked their passports.

It was pretty clear that when the poster said "Slovenian nationals" he meant
Slovenian citizens. His followup confirms that.


I can believe that this was scarcastic, but everyone doesn't know your
sense of humor. I can just imagine a non-US citizen reading this
article and repeating that US citizens suggesting sending the Coast
Guard to board US flagged vessels with foreigner speaking people aboard.

What if there were thousands of non-US-citizens using fake US passports? Do you
think this might be of interest to Americans?

I've been amazed at what foreign cruisers have told me that they've read
on US Internet sites.

I've been amazed by what I've read on foreign sites!


Perhaps there's just as much rhetoric on non-
US/non-English web sites, but since the majority of American's can't
read them (myself included), we don't know.

What I wonder is what protection a US documented vessel would provide a
non-US citizen.

We can guess a lot, if non-citizens are willing to perjure thmeselves and put
their boats at risk to obtain the papers.



-- Geoff

"Jeff Morris" wrote in
:

Total hogwash! Have you left your brain ashore?

The article never mentioned "non-English speaking," it mentioned
"Slovenian nationals," which I take to imply non-US-citizens. While
documentation does not require knowledge of English, it absolutely
requires US citizenship. The poster described a situation where, if
true, people are fraudulently claiming to be US citizens to gain some
protection of traveling under a US flag.

I never suggested boarding boats based on the linguistic abilities of
the crew; on the contrary, I was suggesting checking out boats that
were flying a US flag, nominally claiming to be US citizens.

Frankly my comments were a bit sarcastic, because I doubt the practice
mentioned is widespread. However, if it is common, it should be
stopped because it does not bode well for those of who legitimately
travel under the US flag.







"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message
7...
In the article which prompted your response it was stated that US
flagged vessels are being operated by non-English speaking
individuals. From your statement it appears that you want to US
coastguard to board these vessels based upon their language and
potentially sieze them. Most people would call this "racial
profiling."

There's nothing in the US consitution or US Coastguard documentation
regulations which requires anyone to speak English. I know plenty of
Croation people who are US citizens who do not speak English.
Sending a Coastguard cutter to harass non-English speaking
individuals, who may be well within the law, seems to be a poor idea.
As someone who cruises 7+ month per year out of the country I can
assure you that the US has a poor enough world image as it is.

-- Geoff

"Jeff Morris" wrote in
:

I'm not sure what your problem is - why shouldn't the USCG be able
to board a US flagged ship? Why would this offend others around
the world?


"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message
7...
"Jeff Morris" wrote in
:

However, being a US flagged vessel means that it can be boarded
and searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we
should send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget
deficit.

Another fine example of American thinking on how to make friends
around the world! Then again we're doing a great job with our
current policies.

-- Geoff

When you start posting like that its pretty clear you've lost the argument.
However, one more nail for your coffin:

"What has changed is that a foreigner is now allowed to be "in command" of a
U.S. documented recreational vessel. The regulations were relaxed in 1996, only
for recreational vessels, and this mainly benefits those who want to bareboat
charter a documented vessel to a foreigner or a U.S. citizen who has a foreign
spouse or boat partner. For all other endorsements of documented vessels --
coastwise, fishing, and registry -- a U.S. citizen must still be in command" of
the vessel."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._6/ai_69233945



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, argue with the Coast Guard. documented boats have lost their right
documentation by having a non-citizen in command.

jeffies, you REALLY should drop out of this discussion, for your wife is
nowhere near at hand to tell you that you are a dumb cluck.

"Jeff Morris"
Date: 9/30/2004 10:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Once again, jaxie is proved wrong.

Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110:

Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates
(a) A vessel may not be employed in a trade except a trade
covered by the endorsement issued for that vessel.
(b) A barge qualified to be employed in the coastwise trade may
be employed, without being documented, in that trade on rivers,
harbors, lakes (except the Great Lakes), canals, and inland waters.
(c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be
operated other than for pleasure.
(d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a
recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a
citizen of the United States.







"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, this has been discussed before and the problem it seems is that
you
don't understand what the English word "command" means in relation to a
documented vessel, as the word is understood by the US Congress.

First of all, jaxie doesn't understand the rules. His claim that a
citizen
must
be on documented vessels at all times is completely bogus. It may be
true
for
commercial fishing vessels, but not for recreational boats.

jeffies is wrong on this, and it has been argued before. Again, I say.
jeffies is dead wrong on this.

You've made this claim before but never substantiated it. Its pretty easy
to
find the regs that require Fishing vessels to be command by citizens; why
can't
you find the regs that apply to recreational vessels?


US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being
operating
by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command.

So, you're claiming that non-citzens can't charter a documented vessel in
US
waters? I should be pretty easy to find a rule about that - how about it
jaxie?

"Jeff Morris" wrote in
:

When you start posting like that its pretty clear you've lost the
argument. However, one more nail for your coffin:

"What has changed is that a foreigner is now allowed to be "in
command" of a U.S. documented recreational vessel. The regulations
were relaxed in 1996, only for recreational vessels, and this mainly
benefits those who want to bareboat charter a documented vessel to a
foreigner or a U.S. citizen who has a foreign spouse or boat partner.
For all other endorsements of documented vessels -- coastwise,
fishing, and registry -- a U.S. citizen must still be in command" of
the vessel."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._6/ai_69233945

Thank you for posting this. I was just about to post a question as to how
US documented boats could be placed into a charter fleet where non-US
citizens could command them. I see it all of the time.

-- Geoff

What would I expect? You ask, an international incident, probably. Even if
you are right it, seems to me that it would be a disproportionate action
that would bring the US government into further international opprobium. A
bully-boy action on a small country for something that should, certaily
could, be settled by diplomacy.

I am only reporting what I saw and heard - that many, many Slovenians are
sailing their boats south in the Adriatic to Croatia (their own coastline is
only around 50nm) where I was cruising at the time, and flying the US flag,
sometimes with a number purporting to be a registration number beginning
with "DL". That a Slovenian skipper/owner (not a Dalmation, that's a dog and
an adjective for a Croatian archipeligo) admitted to me that he paid for US
registration to circumvent his country's swingeing (according to him) tax
laws on imported boats.

My post was neither condoning nor condemning, merely commenting on a
relevant thread. They may be contravening a US law in US waters -
internationally, hmmm, I dunno; maybe you're right.

BrianH.


JAXAshby wrote:

brian,

a.) anyone can register a boat in any state. registering is different
from documenting, and

b.) anyone can hoist any flag they choose on their boat. however,
any boat with a US flag can legally be boarded by the USCG, at gun
point if necessary, anywhere in the world. boats claiming to be US
flagged but aren't can, and likely would be, siezed. that the USCG
has few cutters in the area Dalmatia does not change that.

c.) if the German speaking Dalmatian meant that someone formed a US
corp in Delaware and then documented his boat with that corp as the
owner, yes this can be done. However, the vessel still MUST be
operated by aUS citizen in command. If it isn't and the USCG stops
the boat the boat will be siezed and at the least the documentation
will be revoked.

what would you expect, dood?

Jax, I spoke (in German, after he failed to understand my English)
to one of the owners while waiting for the village post office to
open on one of the small Dalmatian islands last summer, we were
neighbours in the anchorage there; he said he had registered his
yacht in Delaware for $100. It seems there are companies, sometimes
a single lawyer, who facilitate this service.

This must be a thriving business from the number of US ensigns I saw
- it
was clear who were genuine US boats and who were Slovenian from the
size of the ensign - the latter were using smaller, courtesy flags,
presumably the only type available locally.

Best,

BrianH


JAXAshby wrote:
Brian, they may be registered in say South Carlolina but they are
not, can not, be US documented and operated by non-citizens.

That some countries allow their citizens to register some boat with
some state
-- and then ignores the international conventions -- in no way means
that some county -- say Brazil or Italy or Singapore -- will accept
it as the same as US federal documentation.

close, but a couple of points

boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama,
California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in
that
state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen
to register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to
pay
your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by
national governments of the world.


There are many US registered yachts in the Adriatic - owned and
sailed by Slovenian nationals; everywhere down the Croatian coast
there are Ol' Glory ensigns flying on ships with no one speaking
English on board.

Slovenia, now a EU member state, has high import tarifs for
recreational
boats (to protect their own industry, Elan in particular) and many
Slovenians register their new imported craft in Delaware - it's a
cottage industry there.

Imagine, the USA, a flag of convenience country.

BrianH.