"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
to be US documented, the vessel must be owned -- and operated -- by a US
citizen. That means as a non-US citizen you can not own or operate a US
documented vessel. you *can* own and operate a _state_ *registered*
vessel
(state meaning one of the 50 states, or various US territories).

However, many countries will not allow a vessel without country
documentation
to enter. many (most?) Caribbean countries will allow a state registered
US
vesse to enter without US (federal) documentation, because a US citizen
from
say Florida is more than welcome to spend his money in say the Bahamas.
The
French Caribbean countries are reported to fine US registered vessels for
entering without "proper" US documentation.

hope this helps. if not, ask again and I'll try to explain it better.

.
I thinks I's gettin the jist of it.
A US documented vessel belongs to a US citizen. He offers it for sale. I
buy it.
BUT
I then must turn it into an Australian vessel and because I have done so
Australia is then responsible for my actions on the high seas, not America.
The USof A doesn't want a bucketload of Aussies or any-ies rushing about the
high seas in vessels purporting to be US vessels - they reserve their
responsibilities for their citizens.

As long as I make the yacht Australian, I am then free (customs/immigration
consenting) to tour the US and any other country that allows me as an
Australian registered vessel, not a US registered vessel.
Which makes sense.

You were getting me on the finer turns of phraseology. Where you were using
'documented' I think I lost you - if I call it "registered" would that match
what you meant?

Hate to be painful but as retirement approaches this is a possibility.
Strange as it may seem, a chappie from my little country seaside town on the
other side of the world to you wandered off the the Caribbean to buy hisself
a boat to sail back because of the vast range and modest prices and it's
certainly something I'd consider.

--
Hoges in WA
Remove the zeds.

"Hoges in WA" wrote in message
...
....

You were getting me on the finer turns of phraseology. Where you were using
'documented' I think I lost you - if I call it "registered" would that match
what you meant?

....

Its very simple:
Documentation is a process you go through with the Federal Government. It makes
the boat a "flagged vessel" of the US. It has to be measured, (the builder
usually supplies measurement papers), and will have various endorsements, such
as "recreational" or "fishing." Any legal claims and liens against the boat
must be filed with the Coast Guard, so the documentation can serve as a clear
title. Some boats are not eligible for documentation,or certain endorsements,
other must be documented to be used for their purpose.

Registration is a process you go through with state authorities, often the
Registry of Motor Vehicles (the Environmental Police in MA). Some states don't
require registration of documented vessels, other do. In any case, they can't
require that the state numbers be put on a documented vessel, though some
require a sticker. If you spend more than 60 (or is it 90?) days in a state,
you may be required to follow their rules, including proving that the
appropriate sales tax has been paid, so make sure you carry the receipt for the
original payment. Most small boats in the US are registered, but not
documented. Larger vessels, especially commercial, are generally documented.

Usually, documentation is viewed as an advantage. It can simplify selling or
mortgaging a boat, and is sometimes viewed more favorably by authorities. But
the rules are quite clear - a non-citizen may not own or in any way control a
documented vessel.

close, but a couple of points

boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama, California, Guam,
etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in that state for some period of
time. you do not need to be a US citizen to register or use a boat in any
state. mostly, you just have to pay your fees. state registration is usually
not recognized by national governments of the world.

boats can be "documented" by the US Coast Guard. There are some requirements
to this. one is the owner MUST be a US citizen (can include a US corporation).
Another is that the vessel can never be "under the command" of a non-US
citizen. (the reason for this is national defense, for if a war comes up all US
documented vessels are owned by US citizens, who presumably are loyal to the
US. This is more important with cargo vessels, but the documentation process
is the same for recreational vessels). Documentation is normally required by
other countries for a vessel to enter.

I thinks I's gettin the jist of it.
A US documented vessel belongs to a US citizen. He offers it for sale. I
buy it.
BUT
I then must turn it into an Australian vessel and because I have done so
Australia is then responsible for my actions on the high seas, not America.
The USof A doesn't want a bucketload of Aussies or any-ies rushing about the
high seas in vessels purporting to be US vessels - they reserve their
responsibilities for their citizens.

As long as I make the yacht Australian, I am then free (customs/immigration
consenting) to tour the US and any other country that allows me as an
Australian registered vessel, not a US registered vessel.
Which makes sense.

You were getting me on the finer turns of phraseology. Where you were using
'documented' I think I lost you - if I call it "registered" would that match
what you meant?

Hate to be painful but as retirement approaches this is a possibility.
Strange as it may seem, a chappie from my little country seaside town on the
other side of the world to you wandered off the the Caribbean to buy hisself
a boat to sail back because of the vast range and modest prices and it's
certainly something I'd consider.

--
Hoges in WA
Remove the zeds.

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

"Hoges in WA" wrote in message
...
...

You were getting me on the finer turns of phraseology. Where you were
using
'documented' I think I lost you - if I call it "registered" would that
match
what you meant?

...

Its very simple:
Documentation is a process you go through with the Federal Government. It
makes
the boat a "flagged vessel" of the US. It has to be measured, (the
builder
usually supplies measurement papers), and will have various endorsements,
such
as "recreational" or "fishing." Any legal claims and liens against the
boat
must be filed with the Coast Guard, so the documentation can serve as a
clear
title. Some boats are not eligible for documentation,or certain
endorsements,
other must be documented to be used for their purpose.

Registration is a process you go through with state authorities, often the
Registry of Motor Vehicles (the Environmental Police in MA). Some states
don't
require registration of documented vessels, other do. In any case, they
can't
require that the state numbers be put on a documented vessel, though some
require a sticker. If you spend more than 60 (or is it 90?) days in a
state,
you may be required to follow their rules, including proving that the
appropriate sales tax has been paid, so make sure you carry the receipt
for the
original payment. Most small boats in the US are registered, but not
documented. Larger vessels, especially commercial, are generally
documented.

Usually, documentation is viewed as an advantage. It can simplify selling
or
mortgaging a boat, and is sometimes viewed more favorably by authorities.
But
the rules are quite clear - a non-citizen may not own or in any way
control a
documented vessel.


Now I gets it. Documenting is what I, as a Banker, want in anything I'm
lending money for but not what I as a retiree actually need - then I only
need to register.

Took me a while but you gotta give me credit - I eventually saw the light.
thanks


and qwitchabitchin you two - you've both helped!


--
Hoges in WA
Remove the zeds.

Once again, jaxie is proved wrong.

Here's the United States Code, Title 46, Section 12110:

Section 12110. Limitations on operations authorized by certificates
(a) A vessel may not be employed in a trade except a trade
covered by the endorsement issued for that vessel.
(b) A barge qualified to be employed in the coastwise trade may
be employed, without being documented, in that trade on rivers,
harbors, lakes (except the Great Lakes), canals, and inland waters.
(c) A vessel with only a recreational endorsement may not be
operated other than for pleasure.
(d) A documented vessel, other than a vessel with only a
recreational endorsement, may be placed under the command only of a
citizen of the United States.







"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, this has been discussed before and the problem it seems is that you
don't understand what the English word "command" means in relation to a
documented vessel, as the word is understood by the US Congress.

First of all, jaxie doesn't understand the rules. His claim that a
citizen
must
be on documented vessels at all times is completely bogus. It may be true
for
commercial fishing vessels, but not for recreational boats.

jeffies is wrong on this, and it has been argued before. Again, I say.
jeffies is dead wrong on this.

You've made this claim before but never substantiated it. Its pretty easy to
find the regs that require Fishing vessels to be command by citizens; why
can't
you find the regs that apply to recreational vessels?


US documentation has been lost on recreational vessels found to being
operating
by a non-citizen with not citizens onboard and in command.

So, you're claiming that non-citzens can't charter a documented vessel in US
waters? I should be pretty easy to find a rule about that - how about it
jaxie?

JAXAshby wrote:
close, but a couple of points

boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama,
California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in that
state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen to
register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to pay
your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by national
governments of the world.


There are many US registered yachts in the Adriatic - owned and sailed by
Slovenian nationals; everywhere down the Croatian coast there are Ol' Glory
ensigns flying on ships with no one speaking English on board.

Slovenia, now a EU member state, has high import tarifs for recreational
boats (to protect their own industry, Elan in particular) and many
Slovenians register their new imported craft in Delaware - it's a cottage
industry there.

Imagine, the USA, a flag of convenience country.

BrianH.

On this I would agree with jaxie - it is patently illegal for a non-citizen of the US to own, or in
any way have a controlling interest, in a US Documented vessel. The laws go on at great length
closing as many loopholes as the lawyers could think of. There is no exemption for recreational
vessels. Vessels in violation certainly lose their documentation, and might be liable for seizure.

I'm not sure how this works if the vessel is not in US waters. However, being a US flagged vessel
means that it can be boarded and searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we should
send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget deficit.


--
-jeff

"BrianH" wrote in message ...
JAXAshby wrote:
close, but a couple of points

boats can be "registered" with a state (New York, Alabama,
California, Guam, etc), and usually have to be to kept in use in that
state for some period of time. you do not need to be a US citizen to
register or use a boat in any state. mostly, you just have to pay
your fees. state registration is usually not recognized by national
governments of the world.


There are many US registered yachts in the Adriatic - owned and sailed by Slovenian nationals;
everywhere down the Croatian coast there are Ol' Glory ensigns flying on ships with no one
speaking English on board.

Slovenia, now a EU member state, has high import tarifs for recreational boats (to protect their
own industry, Elan in particular) and many Slovenians register their new imported craft in
Delaware - it's a cottage industry there.

Imagine, the USA, a flag of convenience country.

BrianH.

"Jeff Morris" wrote in
:

However, being a US flagged vessel means that it can be boarded and
searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we should
send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget deficit.

Another fine example of American thinking on how to make friends around the
world! Then again we're doing a great job with our current policies.

-- Geoff

I'm not sure what your problem is - why shouldn't the USCG be able to board a US
flagged ship? Why would this offend others around the world?


"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message
7...
"Jeff Morris" wrote in
:

However, being a US flagged vessel means that it can be boarded and
searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we should
send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget deficit.

Another fine example of American thinking on how to make friends around the
world! Then again we're doing a great job with our current policies.

-- Geoff

In the article which prompted your response it was stated that US
flagged vessels are being operated by non-English speaking individuals.
From your statement it appears that you want to US coastguard to board
these vessels based upon their language and potentially sieze them.
Most people would call this "racial profiling."

There's nothing in the US consitution or US Coastguard documentation
regulations which requires anyone to speak English. I know plenty of
Croation people who are US citizens who do not speak English. Sending a
Coastguard cutter to harass non-English speaking individuals, who may be
well within the law, seems to be a poor idea. As someone who cruises 7+
month per year out of the country I can assure you that the US has a
poor enough world image as it is.

-- Geoff

"Jeff Morris" wrote in
:

I'm not sure what your problem is - why shouldn't the USCG be able to
board a US flagged ship? Why would this offend others around the
world?


"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote in message
7...
"Jeff Morris" wrote in
:

However, being a US flagged vessel means that it can be boarded and
searched anywhere in the world by US authorities. Maybe we should
send a cutter to the Adriatic to help close the budget deficit.

Another fine example of American thinking on how to make friends
around the world! Then again we're doing a great job with our
current policies.

-- Geoff