mod knock it off. even 25% alcohol to gas hardly raises the octane
---------------- rating ------------------ at all. you have been reading
1940's Popular Mechanix mags again. tsk tsk

Depends on the alcohol, but the most common added to gasoline are
ethanol and methanol, each with octane numbers of 100 or so. They
boost the octane.

Reduction of CO emissions during warm-up for carbureted engines.


mum mum vador, knock it off. for all practical purposes there are no carbueted
auto engines on the road for a very long time. I believe that last such sold
as new was the miserable CVCC engine, and that was well more than 25 years ago.

JAXAshby wrote:
Reduction of CO emissions during warm-up for carbureted engines.



mum mum vador, knock it off. for all practical purposes there are no carbueted
auto engines on the road for a very long time. I believe that last such sold
as new was the miserable CVCC engine, and that was well more than 25 years ago.

Jax...
You really should stick with what you don't know.
I happen to have - in my driveway - a 1987 Caravan - that is not only
OE with a carburetor, but open loop (no fuel control computer and
exhaust gas oxygen sensor) to boot. It has a manual transmission, too.
(and something close to 180K)

That puts you wrong by about a decade.

Matt

mattie, I guess I don't cari vans, but I was under the impression it had
throttle body injection. perhaps you looked and thought you saw a carb when
you didn't.

in any event 1987 autos were introduced 18 years ago.

(if counting to 18 is too difficult for you normalling, trying taking your
shoes off and counting your toes as well.)

Reduction of CO emissions during warm-up for carbureted engines.



mum mum vador, knock it off. for all practical purposes there are no
carbueted
auto engines on the road for a very long time. I believe that last such
sold
as new was the miserable CVCC engine, and that was well more than 25 years
ago.

Jax...
You really should stick with what you don't know.
I happen to have - in my driveway - a 1987 Caravan - that is not only
OE with a carburetor, but open loop (no fuel control computer and
exhaust gas oxygen sensor) to boot. It has a manual transmission, too.
(and something close to 180K)

That puts you wrong by about a decade.

Matt

Jaxie baby,

You are still wrong, It is a Holly 5200 series.
And you are still nearly a decade wrong agin.

You are also Wrong again about the Honda CVCC
It was marketed in this country between 1973 and 1981MY.
That still doesn't add up to 25.

You are in my home water here.

Matt

JAXAshby wrote:

mattie, I guess I don't cari vans, but I was under the impression it had
throttle body injection. perhaps you looked and thought you saw a carb when
you didn't.

in any event 1987 autos were introduced 18 years ago.

(if counting to 18 is too difficult for you normalling, trying taking your
shoes off and counting your toes as well.)


Reduction of CO emissions during warm-up for carbureted engines.



mum mum vador, knock it off. for all practical purposes there are no

carbueted

auto engines on the road for a very long time. I believe that last such

sold

as new was the miserable CVCC engine, and that was well more than 25 years

ago.

Jax...
You really should stick with what you don't know.
I happen to have - in my driveway - a 1987 Caravan - that is not only
OE with a carburetor, but open loop (no fuel control computer and
exhaust gas oxygen sensor) to boot. It has a manual transmission, too.
(and something close to 180K)

That puts you wrong by about a decade.

Matt

less cee. 2004 minus 25 equals what?

drats. lets me tries dats agins. twenty aught fore lessens twenty and fives
issa whats?

so, matt, genius that you are, are you STILL claiming gasoline is oxygenated to
reduce CO emissions upon cold engine startup for cars with carbs?

In other words, matt, you are claiming a car with a Holly 5200 glued onto the
intake manifold does not meet EPA standards and the EPA forced the petro
companies to change the fuel to "make it all better?"

you be paranoid, dood. but I guess you know more about 18 year old cari vans
than I do. good on ya, mattie.

Jaxie baby,

You are still wrong, It is a Holly 5200 series.
And you are still nearly a decade wrong agin.

You are also Wrong again about the Honda CVCC
It was marketed in this country between 1973 and 1981MY.
That still doesn't add up to 25.

You are in my home water here.

Matt

JAXAshby wrote:

mattie, I guess I don't cari vans, but I was under the impression it had
throttle body injection. perhaps you looked and thought you saw a carb
when
you didn't.

in any event 1987 autos were introduced 18 years ago.

(if counting to 18 is too difficult for you normalling, trying taking your
shoes off and counting your toes as well.)


Reduction of CO emissions during warm-up for carbureted engines.



mum mum vador, knock it off. for all practical purposes there are no

carbueted

auto engines on the road for a very long time. I believe that last such

sold

as new was the miserable CVCC engine, and that was well more than 25 years

ago.

Jax...
You really should stick with what you don't know.
I happen to have - in my driveway - a 1987 Caravan - that is not only
OE with a carburetor, but open loop (no fuel control computer and
exhaust gas oxygen sensor) to boot. It has a manual transmission, too.
(and something close to 180K)

That puts you wrong by about a decade.

Matt

Thanks for the correction, I did indeed leave the word "rating" off of
the end of that sentence (although "octane" is a common enough
abbreviation for "octane rating"). I also should have not implied that
methanol was commonly added to the gasoline that most people buy at
the gas pump, ethanol being preferred because of lower toxicity and
corrosivity.

While ethanol and methanol may not be as effective as other compounds,
the "blending number" of ethanol is 118, meaning when blended with
gasoline it boosts octane rating more than suggested by its rating in
pure form of 100 (R+M)/2. 10% ethanol can boost the octane rating by
3. Alcohols are in fact added to many common gasolines to boost octane
rating.

%mod%

(JAXAshby) wrote in message ...
mod knock it off. even 25% alcohol to gas hardly raises the octane
---------------- rating ------------------ at all. you have been reading
1940's Popular Mechanix mags again. tsk tsk

Depends on the alcohol, but the most common added to gasoline are
ethanol and methanol, each with octane numbers of 100 or so. They
boost the octane.

oder, they got poorer fuel mileage than catalytic converter engines, but you
knew that didn't you? they also sold poorer partly because of their poor fuel
mileage and more so because they were maintenance hogs. but you knew that,
didn't you?

are you *still* claiming that oxygenated gasoline exists because those carb'd
engine -- few in number -- needed special fuel upon warm up, AND the EPA wanted
to accomodate the car manufacturers?

yeah, sure. whatever you say.

(modervador)
Date: 9/29/2004 11:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

(JAXAshby) wrote in message
...
Reduction of CO emissions during warm-up for carbureted engines.


mum mum vador, knock it off. for all practical purposes there are no
carbueted
auto engines on the road for a very long time. I believe that last such
sold
as new was the miserable CVCC engine, and that was well more than 25 years
ago.

The carburetted CVCC engine's last year was 1985. By 1984 it was
running closed-loop with feedback from an O2 sensor in the exhaust
stream to maintain a stoichiometric mixture, so the "lean burning
stratified charge" feature of the original CVCC was no longer being
used although the head retained the pre-combustion chamber and carb
retained the auxilliary 3rd barrel to feed the prechamber. The
prechamber and 3rd barrel were done away with for 1986. The last year
for the standard carbed Accord engine was 1989 (injection was an
option starting in 1985) and the Civic models all got fuel injection
in 1988 I think.

But that's just the Hondas. There were plenty of other carbed engines
made which are still around, both open-loop and closed-loop, and I
don't care to dredge to find when the last one was sold new in the
U.S., but it was more like 14 years ago and it likely wasn't a Honda.
There are also open-loop fuel injection systems (no O2 sensor).

With open loop, before the engine warms up, combustion is less
controlled and the choke (or idle enrichment in FI) makes it run
slichtly rich, increasing CO output. Even with closed loop, the design
of the O2 sensor and engine management system is a factor. The O2
sensor does not send out a signal till it warms up, so the engine
management system must run in open-loop mode till then, defaulting to
slightly rich with elevated CO output. Many O2 sensors have a heating
element to speed the warm-up of the sensor to decrease the time
running open-loop. But then there's the catalytic converter, the final
link. Till it warms up, it allows the CO to escape unconverted. Some
catalytic converters are being designed to have heaters that decrease
warm-up time.

So even the most modern car has some period after a cold start, during
which it runs open-loop and spews more CO than it does after warm-up.
Oxygenated fuels increase the oxygen-to-hydrocarbon ratio during
open-loop running and thus promote more complete combustion that
produces CO2 rather than CO. In several metropolitan areas there
remains a high proportion of older cars with carbs and early-version
fuel injection systems. In winter months the warm-up time is increased
during which these cars emit increased CO to an extent large enough
that the EPA (or some other branch of gummint) has mandated oxygenated
fuels during the coldest months in these areas.

%mod%