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Problems with ethanol in fuel
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
Larry Weiss wrote in message ...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? I have experienced some cars also not runnig with ethanol blend ... I dont know the technical reason, but may speculate its different properties dont lead to proper air mix. Aside from that you should never use ethanol fuel in 2 strokes. Matt |
Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ??? "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
Larry Weiss wrote:
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." Here's a good compilation of current manufacturer's recommendations. Mercury seems especially against ethanol fuel. http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf |
So the problem would appear to be water.
"John Wentworth" wrote in message ... Larry Weiss wrote: Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." Here's a good compilation of current manufacturer's recommendations. Mercury seems especially against ethanol fuel. http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf |
It attracts water and when it reaches saturation the water dumps out. Not
so good in a boat as i's hard to avoid water. If you can remove the sending unit from your fuel tank and see if it has water in the bottom. Get it out if it does. Drain all your fuel filters regularly. Keep the water out and you'll have less trouble. But it's hard to do. "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
Over here in Western Pennsylvania I use Sunoco 93 octane and haven't had any
problems. I used the same fuel since 99 in my Mercury OB. 10%, don't think so as the max is no more than 5% from Sunoco. "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
Aside from that you should never use ethanol fuel in 2 strokes.
we used to mix ethanol into the gas in our outboards when I was kid to increase hp (local law limited hp to kids under 12 to 10) and it made our boats go faster. why can't you use ethanol in 2 strokes? |
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution. Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ??? "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
Wrong.
"JAXAshby" wrote in message ... alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there is no such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution. Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ??? "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
don't tell it to me, tell to those with PhD's in chemistry.
Wrong. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there is no such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution. Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ??? "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
Immiscible liquids are liquids that do not dissolve in one another. Some
combinations of liquids mix in all proportions, e.g. alcohol and water, mix at some compositions but not at others, or hardly mix at all, e.g. gasoline and water. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... don't tell it to me, tell to those with PhD's in chemistry. Wrong. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there is no such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution. Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ??? "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
Scotch and water ...
"Bowgus" wrote in message .cable.rogers.com... Immiscible liquids are liquids that do not dissolve in one another. Some combinations of liquids mix in all proportions, e.g. alcohol and water, mix at some compositions but not at others, or hardly mix at all, e.g. gasoline and water. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... don't tell it to me, tell to those with PhD's in chemistry. Wrong. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there is no such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution. Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ??? "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
You can use straight ethanol if you want ..... but you have to change
the jets in a carb or change the 'open' interval in a TBI or Injection system. Ethanol burns hotter and more completely but requires a much richer (fuel/air ratio) mixture. For simple injection systems all that needed is to increase the fuel 'rail' pressure a bit to affect MORE fuel pressure to the injector(s). For a carburated engine the old 'rule of thumb' when rejetting was to double the orfice diameter when running on straight ETOH .... thats 180 proof, hic, ..... *;‹s Depending on the coloric value of the fuel, 90% ETOH required 4 times the volumetric flow in comparison to 100 Octane gasoline. For the original poster who was complaing of hesitation, etc. with ETOH 10% ... you need to change the injector 'open' interval value or consider changing jets to affect a richer mixture. In article , JAXAshby wrote: Aside from that you should never use ethanol fuel in 2 strokes. we used to mix ethanol into the gas in our outboards when I was kid to increase hp (local law limited hp to kids under 12 to 10) and it made our boats go faster. why can't you use ethanol in 2 strokes? |
Nope 10% ethanol mixed with gasoline will result in the water component
forming into an emulsified form which doesnt separate readily. Actually the additional water content helps increase the "octane" number, and also helps to clean the piston ring grooves, blows the carbon out of the combustion chamber, etc. Some engines (back in 'muscle car days') used water injection to boost power output while helping to cool the combustion chambers. article gers.com, Bowgus wrote: Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ??? "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance. In article le.rogers.com, Bowgus wrote: Wrong. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there is no such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution. Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ??? "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
"Woodchuck" wrote in message ...
Over here in Western Pennsylvania I use Sunoco 93 octane and haven't had any problems. I used the same fuel since 99 in my Mercury OB. 10%, don't think so as the max is no more than 5% from Sunoco. "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." Ok here some fact about alcohol addition to fuel: For a long time people have sometimes added a bit of alcohol to the gasoline in areas where water might get into the gas tank. The water does not mix with the gasoline and in cold climates can freeze in the gas line and in warmer climates prevent the engine from starting. Water is not a good fuel. Addition of the alcohol will cause formation of a ternarty mixture with the water and the gasoline and avoid the water from separating out. More recnetly in some states like california the EPA in order to reduce engine pollution the government has mandated the use of Oxygenated fuels. This is gasoline that has up to 10% alcohol added to make the gasoline burn cleaner. The 10% number comes from an agreement of automobile engine manufacturers who have agreed that up to 10 % the engine is not harmed and no special adjustment is required. With more than 10% alcohol the power of the engine is reduced and parts may suffer. In Brazil some cars use pure alcohol, these are special engines and people don't like them because they have no power ( I used to live there and had a car with an alcohol engine) For these reasons I don't think that poor running of an engine with a gasoline/10% alcohol is the problem. Water tends to cause starting problems but once the engine is running at high speed the water tends to disperse ( not dissolve ) and go through the engine with the gasoline. There may be several reasons for the stalling problem. Most likely the engines are starved of fuel when revved. Since it occurs on both engines it may be a simple as some blockage in the fuel line that allows some fuel to get through, enough for idle, but not enough for a high rev. S I would look for the problem in the fuel filters, fuel line, fuel pump etc |
Immiscible liquids are liquids that do not dissolve in one another.
so? green traffic lights mean "go", but so what? Some combinations of liquids mix in all proportions, e.g. alcohol and water, mix at some compositions but not at others, or hardly mix at all, you might wish to check your "facts" with a chemist next time before you open your mouth. e.g. gasoline and water. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... don't tell it to me, tell to those with PhD's in chemistry. Wrong. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there is no such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution. Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ??? "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
does anyone remember "green bug juice" racing fuel? Sometimes known as "canned
horsepower"? You can use straight ethanol if you want ..... but you have to change the jets in a carb or change the 'open' interval in a TBI or Injection system. Ethanol burns hotter and more completely but requires a much richer (fuel/air ratio) mixture. For simple injection systems all that needed is to increase the fuel 'rail' pressure a bit to affect MORE fuel pressure to the injector(s). For a carburated engine the old 'rule of thumb' when rejetting was to double the orfice diameter when running on straight ETOH .... thats 180 proof, hic, ..... *;‹s Depending on the coloric value of the fuel, 90% ETOH required 4 times the volumetric flow in comparison to 100 Octane gasoline. For the original poster who was complaing of hesitation, etc. with ETOH 10% ... you need to change the injector 'open' interval value or consider changing jets to affect a richer mixture. In article , JAXAshby wrote: Aside from that you should never use ethanol fuel in 2 strokes. we used to mix ethanol into the gas in our outboards when I was kid to increase hp (local law limited hp to kids under 12 to 10) and it made our boats go faster. why can't you use ethanol in 2 strokes? |
One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems. With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem. "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation.... .... blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. Problems we had in motorcycles involved water. Seems that while gas and ethonol mix fine and ethanol and water mix that ethanol saturated with water doesn't mix with gas nor burn well. |
Larry,
As so often happens in these groups, there is a good deal of less than complete data. After several decades of working in the test labs of Detroit let me fill in some of the problems. Old issue: Alcohol is a solvent for the "Permatex" that used to seal two-stroke crankcases. This would allow charge mixture to leak out, air to leak in during the cycle and the engine would go lean and self distruct. There was also an issue raised with the alcohol interfering with the lubricity of the ashless oil causing a breakdown under load. I never saw this verfied and was told by a lubricant supplier that it was simply false. This would make sense becuase the engine damage that I surveyed was all piston damage most likely the result of lean mixture. Fix - Use an alcohol resistant silcone base RTV sealant during assembly. Known issue: All elastomers have some absortion rate of almost all liquids. It is additive. So, if Hexane make a 4% swell, and butane makes a 2% swell then expect winter pump gasoline to cause 6% swell. Alcohol swell is typically 3-4%, so it added to the fuel you should now expect a 10% swell. That will FU (make less than optimal) a rubber tipped needle and seat of an old carburetor float valve system in fine style. Fix - Go find a Grose Jet to replace the rubber tipped needle and seat. These were made for out labe by a shop in RI (Providence - I think). If the neat guy that runs the shop is still there, he has data for most things and can make what you have data for. - Not cheap - Very Good Little known issue: But, touched on by one poster. The F/A will be differnet for an -OH (the family of alcohols) blend fuel than it is with pump grade non-OH blended fuel. This can and often did cause drivability and performance issues. Modern cars correct for this on the fly (not goingthere now). Fix - Older engines can not do this automaticly, but can be corrected for the 12-20$us that a box of carburetor jets will cost (you can stiil buy at speed shops). Upsize the main jet(s) in the carburetor until the engine runs as it should. Unfortunately, this was much easier to do in a engine dynamometer test room that I might be in a boat, but I have done it and it takes some patience and persistance. Good Luck Matt Colie Larry Weiss wrote: Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
Geez ... the only opening of the mouth I've done so far is to sip my scotch
(alcohol) and water (water) solution. JAXAssby, you seem to have a real problem with alcohol, whereas, everything I've said so far is 180 proof :-) Adios buddy, it's been entertaining :-) "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... Immiscible liquids are liquids that do not dissolve in one another. so? green traffic lights mean "go", but so what? Some combinations of liquids mix in all proportions, e.g. alcohol and water, mix at some compositions but not at others, or hardly mix at all, you might wish to check your "facts" with a chemist next time before you open your mouth. e.g. gasoline and water. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... don't tell it to me, tell to those with PhD's in chemistry. Wrong. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there is no such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution. Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ??? "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
And when the temperature drops ... although I suppose some of you guys don't
live where that happens ... the alcohol can get dumped. Refer to the excellent link posted by John Wentworth to "2003 Marine Manufacturere Fuel Recommendations" at http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf "Rich Hampel" wrote in message ... Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong. Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance. In article le.rogers.com, Bowgus wrote: Wrong. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there is no such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution. Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ??? "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
Oops ... must be the scotch ... the water gets dumped ... how true :-)
"Bowgus" wrote in message .rogers.com... And when the temperature drops ... although I suppose some of you guys don't live where that happens ... the alcohol can get dumped. Refer to the excellent link posted by John Wentworth to "2003 Marine Manufacturere Fuel Recommendations" at http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf "Rich Hampel" wrote in message ... Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong. Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance. In article le.rogers.com, Bowgus wrote: Wrong. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there is no such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution. Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ??? "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
whatever are you talking about, blow gut. I lived a LOT of years where
wintertime temps were well below zero actual (the lowest I ever saw was -48 actual, not "windchill"), and alcohol was -- at the time -- a standard ingredient added at gas tank fill time. in fact, one very large petro company advertised they added alcohol at the refinery. "Bowgus" Date: 9/22/2004 6:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: ers.com And when the temperature drops ... although I suppose some of you guys don't live where that happens ... the alcohol can get dumped. Refer to the excellent link posted by John Wentworth to "2003 Marine Manufacturere Fuel Recommendations" at http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf "Rich Hampel" wrote in message ... Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong. Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance. In article le.rogers.com, Bowgus wrote: Wrong. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there is no such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution. Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ??? "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....
Matt "Ken" wrote in message ... One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems. With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem. "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
Matt,
Believe it. Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae. It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline... What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates. Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency. Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret) Matt Lang wrote: I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas.... Matt "Ken" wrote in message ... One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems. With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem. "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
Hi Matt,
Sorry, but I agree with Matt. Lotsa oxygen, but an organic chemist could help us about the locations that they are stuck on. Suspect that is what people are talking about with oxygenated fuels. surfnturf "Matt Colie" wrote in message ... Matt, Believe it. Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae. It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline... What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates. Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency. Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret) Matt Lang wrote: I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas.... Matt "Ken" wrote in message ... One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems. With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem. "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
I am talking about Minnesota and upper Wisconsin. I, too, saw many times a
can or two of Heet thaw out a frozen gas line. "My advice, sir, don't forget your De-Icer" was long an advertising slogan for Standard Oil. Eventually, all petro companies added alcohol to wintertime gas. Ever hear of Eureka or Durrand or Lykens or Frederic or Wayzata or Plymouth or Dinkytown? That stuff we were always using up in Minnesota. It came in a 10 oz or so can, it was called "Heet". The gasline between the tank and the engine was where the water would collect and freeze. You'd dump in a can or two of Heet, go away for awhile, then come back and start the engine.------You know, when I think about it, that doesn't make sense.The correct way was to dump it in when you filled your tank, but that implies having a plan, which usually wasn't the case 40 years ago. Does anybody know if that stuff works after the fact, that is, will it thaw a frozen line? I'm thinking yes. I remember 40's, possibly 50 degrees below actual, not windchill. My first car, a '56 Rambler Super Cross Country, had clear vynil plastic covering the seats. When I sat down on it, it was so cold it didn't just crack, the whole front seat cover shattered like glass. |
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"My advice, sir, don't forget your De-Icer"
actually, "My advice, sir, get De-Icer." |
With the stuff you get from the gas pump, ya, there is oxygen in the
formula. It is being put there by design for pollution purposes (EPA mandates) and for economic reasons (sometimes its cheaper to blend straight gas with something). At a chemical level, gasoline does not contain oxygen. The key word is formula. If only the powers that be would quit changing the formula. Carbs are limited range animals that can't fully handle all that difference. Engines demand a specific ratio of hydrocarbons to oxygen to produce optimum burn (or a richer mixture for optimum power). With a constantly changing formula, it becomes harder or impossible to adjust a carb to produce that optimum. For more info on gas see http://auto.howstuffworks.com/gasoline1.htm http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc.../chem99658.htm http://www.smokemup.com/tech/fuels.php "Matt Lang" wrote in message om... I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas.... Matt "Ken" wrote in message ... One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems. With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem. "Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems (unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each boat was purchased at a different fuel dock. If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?) problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the marine industry addressing this? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" "a little after..." |
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:28:58 GMT,
Rich Hampel wrote: Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong. Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance. So does this mean that a 55 gal drum of water, will form an emulsion when you add 1 drop of Ethanol to it? this doesn't make sense. Surely there's some point at which adding more water to the ethanol will leave a non-emulsified amount of water? In article ble.rogers.com, Bowgus wrote: Wrong. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there is no such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution. -- Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock Proud Member of THRUSH: the Technological Hierarchy for the Removal of Undesirables and the Subjugation of Humanity |
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Uhhh, kinda embarrassed. Too long since high school, should have done my
research before spouting off... I'll back the other Matt now. Cs&Hs, no Os until you get into the additives etc. Been fooling around with wood chemistry too much. surfnturf snip the embarassment "Matt Colie" wrote in message ... Matt, Believe it. Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae. It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline... What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates. Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency. Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret) |
WRONG! No matter how much alcohol you add to gasoline, once it is mixed, any
water in the alcohol will separate almost immediately. Water does nothing to increase the octane of any fossil fuel. When water injection was used on automobiles it was used to slow the burn time of cheap low octane gasoline. By adding water you could keep your timing advanced to specs without the clatter of a pinging engine from detonation on high compression engines. One primary reason alcohol is added to fuel is its ability to retain more oxygen so when added to gasoline you actually end up with a more efficent burn. Its an EPA thing. Alcohol actually has a lower octane rating but because of its added oxygenation properties, its benficial when added to gasoline. From: Rich Hampel Date: 9/21/04 11:26 PM Central Daylight Time Message-id: Nope 10% ethanol mixed with gasoline will result in the water component forming into an emulsified form which doesnt separate readily. Actually the additional water content helps increase the "octane" number, and also helps to clean the piston ring grooves, blows the carbon out of the combustion chamber, etc. Some engines (back in 'muscle car days') used water injection to boost power output while helping to cool the combustion chambers. |
WRONG! No matter how much alcohol you add to gasoline, once it is mixed, any
water in the alcohol will separate almost immediately where did you learn this? please be specific, as millions of drivers with experience in cold winter states disagree with you. |
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:28:58 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote: Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong. Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance. The first line should warn you that a mistake is in the offing. Here are some definitions: "azeotrope" a mixture of liquids with a constant boiling temperature - because the vapor has the same composition as the liquid. Contrast this with a mix of grain acohol (aka ethanol) and water: when heated, the ethanol evolves preferentially: this process is called "distillation" An "emulsion" is a preparation of two immiscible liquids: though they will not mutually dissolve, finely divided particles of one phase remain stable in the other component, often with a milky appearance: mayonnaise is a classic example. The problem in the lines quoted is the confusion between water/oil or water/gasoline mixes which CAN emulsify - and water/alcohol mixes which DO NOT emulsify. Brian Whatcott Altus OK |
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