"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation....
.... blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol.

Problems we had in motorcycles involved water. Seems that while gas and
ethonol mix fine and ethanol and water mix that ethanol saturated with water
doesn't mix with gas nor burn well.

Larry,

As so often happens in these groups, there is a good deal of less than
complete data. After several decades of working in the test labs of
Detroit let me fill in some of the problems.

Old issue:
Alcohol is a solvent for the "Permatex" that used to seal two-stroke
crankcases. This would allow charge mixture to leak out, air to leak in
during the cycle and the engine would go lean and self distruct. There
was also an issue raised with the alcohol interfering with the lubricity
of the ashless oil causing a breakdown under load. I never saw this
verfied and was told by a lubricant supplier that it was simply false.
This would make sense becuase the engine damage that I surveyed was all
piston damage most likely the result of lean mixture.

Fix - Use an alcohol resistant silcone base RTV sealant during assembly.

Known issue:
All elastomers have some absortion rate of almost all liquids. It is
additive. So, if Hexane make a 4% swell, and butane makes a 2% swell
then expect winter pump gasoline to cause 6% swell. Alcohol swell is
typically 3-4%, so it added to the fuel you should now expect a 10%
swell. That will FU (make less than optimal) a rubber tipped needle and
seat of an old carburetor float valve system in fine style.

Fix - Go find a Grose Jet to replace the rubber tipped needle and seat.
These were made for out labe by a shop in RI (Providence - I think). If
the neat guy that runs the shop is still there, he has data for most
things and can make what you have data for. - Not cheap - Very Good

Little known issue:
But, touched on by one poster. The F/A will be differnet for an -OH
(the family of alcohols) blend fuel than it is with pump grade non-OH
blended fuel. This can and often did cause drivability and performance
issues. Modern cars correct for this on the fly (not goingthere now).

Fix - Older engines can not do this automaticly, but can be corrected
for the 12-20$us that a box of carburetor jets will cost (you can stiil
buy at speed shops). Upsize the main jet(s) in the carburetor until
the engine runs as it should.

Unfortunately, this was much easier to do in a engine dynamometer test
room that I might be in a boat, but I have done it and it takes some
patience and persistance.

Good Luck
Matt Colie


Larry Weiss wrote:
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Geez ... the only opening of the mouth I've done so far is to sip my scotch
(alcohol) and water (water) solution. JAXAssby, you seem to have a real
problem with alcohol, whereas, everything I've said so far is 180 proof :-)
Adios buddy, it's been entertaining :-)

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Immiscible liquids are liquids that do not dissolve in one another.

so? green traffic lights mean "go", but so what?

Some
combinations of liquids mix in all proportions, e.g. alcohol and water,
mix
at some compositions but not at others, or hardly mix at all,

you might wish to check your "facts" with a chemist next time before you
open
your mouth.

e.g. gasoline
and water.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
don't tell it to me, tell to those with PhD's in chemistry.

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning
there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by
some
in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to
prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the
water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If
that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the
engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused
by a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when
revved.
My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left
and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here
(Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good
for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running
problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas
in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional
(national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How
is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

And when the temperature drops ... although I suppose some of you guys don't
live where that happens ... the alcohol can get dumped. Refer to the
excellent link posted by John Wentworth to "2003 Marine Manufacturere Fuel
Recommendations" at http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.


In article
le.rogers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning
there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some
in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to
prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the
water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If
that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by
a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved.
My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left
and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good
for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How
is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Oops ... must be the scotch ... the water gets dumped ... how true :-)

"Bowgus" wrote in message
.rogers.com...
And when the temperature drops ... although I suppose some of you guys
don't
live where that happens ... the alcohol can get dumped. Refer to the
excellent link posted by John Wentworth to "2003 Marine Manufacturere Fuel
Recommendations" at http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.


In article
le.rogers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning
there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by
some
in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to
prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the
water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If
that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the
engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused
by
a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when
revved.
My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left
and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here
(Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good
for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running
problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas
in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional
(national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How
is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

whatever are you talking about, blow gut. I lived a LOT of years where
wintertime temps were well below zero actual (the lowest I ever saw was -48
actual, not "windchill"), and alcohol was -- at the time -- a standard
ingredient added at gas tank fill time. in fact, one very large petro company
advertised they added alcohol at the refinery.

"Bowgus"
Date: 9/22/2004 6:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: ers.com

And when the temperature drops ... although I suppose some of you guys don't
live where that happens ... the alcohol can get dumped. Refer to the
excellent link posted by John Wentworth to "2003 Marine Manufacturere Fuel
Recommendations" at http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.


In article
le.rogers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning
there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some
in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to
prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the
water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If
that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by
a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved.
My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left
and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good
for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How
is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message ...
One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)


Matt Lang wrote:
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message ...

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

(JAXAshby) wrote in message ...
whatever are you talking about, blow gut. I lived a LOT of years where
wintertime temps were well below zero actual (the lowest I ever saw was -48
actual, not "windchill"), and alcohol was -- at the time -- a standard
ingredient added at gas tank fill time. in fact, one very large petro company
advertised they added alcohol at the refinery.

"Bowgus"
Date: 9/22/2004 6:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: ers.com

And when the temperature drops ... although I suppose some of you guys don't
live where that happens ... the alcohol can get dumped. Refer to the
excellent link posted by John Wentworth to "2003 Marine Manufacturere Fuel
Recommendations" at http://www.ethanolrfa.org/2003marine.pdf


That stuff we were always using up in Minnesota. It came in a 10 oz or
so can, it was called "Heet". The gasline between the tank and the
engine was where the water would collect and freeze. You'd dump in a
can or two of Heet, go away for awhile, then come back and start the
engine.------You know, when I think about it, that doesn't make
sense.The correct way was to dump it in when you filled your tank, but
that implies having a plan, which usually wasn't the case 40 years
ago. Does anybody know if that stuff works after the fact, that is,
will it thaw a frozen line? I'm thinking yes. I remember 40's,
possibly 50 degrees below actual, not windchill. My first car, a '56
Rambler Super Cross Country, had clear vynil plastic covering the
seats. When I sat down on it, it was so cold it didn't just crack, the
whole front seat cover shattered like glass.

Hi Matt,

Sorry, but I agree with Matt. Lotsa oxygen, but an organic chemist could
help us about the locations that they are stuck on. Suspect that is what
people are talking about with oxygenated fuels.

surfnturf

"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)


Matt Lang wrote:
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message
...

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along
with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen
and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.
No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and
sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."