don't tell it to me, tell to those with PhD's in chemistry.

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Immiscible liquids are liquids that do not dissolve in one another. Some
combinations of liquids mix in all proportions, e.g. alcohol and water, mix
at some compositions but not at others, or hardly mix at all, e.g. gasoline
and water.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
don't tell it to me, tell to those with PhD's in chemistry.

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning
there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some
in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the
water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved.
My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good
for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Scotch and water ...

"Bowgus" wrote in message
.cable.rogers.com...
Immiscible liquids are liquids that do not dissolve in one another. Some
combinations of liquids mix in all proportions, e.g. alcohol and water,
mix
at some compositions but not at others, or hardly mix at all, e.g.
gasoline
and water.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
don't tell it to me, tell to those with PhD's in chemistry.

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning
there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some
in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to
prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the
water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If
that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the
engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by
a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when
revved.
My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left
and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here
(Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good
for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas
in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional
(national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How
is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

You can use straight ethanol if you want ..... but you have to change
the jets in a carb or change the 'open' interval in a TBI or Injection
system. Ethanol burns hotter and more completely but requires a much
richer (fuel/air ratio) mixture. For simple injection systems all that
needed is to increase the fuel 'rail' pressure a bit to affect MORE
fuel pressure to the injector(s). For a carburated engine the old
'rule of thumb' when rejetting was to double the orfice diameter when
running on straight ETOH .... thats 180 proof, hic, ..... *;‹s
Depending on the coloric value of the fuel, 90% ETOH required 4 times
the volumetric flow in comparison to 100 Octane gasoline.

For the original poster who was complaing of hesitation, etc. with ETOH
10% ... you need to change the injector 'open' interval value or
consider changing jets to affect a richer mixture.


In article , JAXAshby
wrote:

Aside from that you should never use ethanol fuel in 2 strokes.


we used to mix ethanol into the gas in our outboards when I was kid to
increase
hp (local law limited hp to kids under 12 to 10) and it made our boats go
faster. why can't you use ethanol in 2 strokes?

Nope 10% ethanol mixed with gasoline will result in the water component
forming into an emulsified form which doesnt separate readily.

Actually the additional water content helps increase the "octane"
number, and also helps to clean the piston ring grooves, blows the
carbon out of the combustion chamber, etc.
Some engines (back in 'muscle car days') used water injection to boost
power output while helping to cool the combustion chambers.


article gers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.


In article
le.rogers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

"Woodchuck" wrote in message ...
Over here in Western Pennsylvania I use Sunoco 93 octane and haven't had any
problems. I used the same fuel since 99 in my Mercury OB. 10%, don't think
so as the max is no more than 5% from Sunoco.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Ok here some fact about alcohol addition to fuel:
For a long time people have sometimes added a bit of alcohol to the
gasoline in areas where water might get into the gas tank. The water
does not mix with the gasoline and in cold climates can freeze in the
gas line and in warmer climates prevent the engine from starting.
Water is not a good fuel. Addition of the alcohol will cause formation
of a ternarty mixture with the water and the gasoline and avoid the
water from separating out.

More recnetly in some states like california the EPA in order to
reduce engine pollution the government has mandated the use of
Oxygenated fuels. This is gasoline that has up to 10% alcohol added to
make the gasoline burn cleaner. The 10% number comes from an agreement
of automobile engine manufacturers who have agreed that up to 10 % the
engine is not harmed and no special adjustment is required.
With more than 10% alcohol the power of the engine is reduced and
parts may suffer. In Brazil some cars use pure alcohol, these are
special engines and people don't like them because they have no power
( I used to live there and had a car with an alcohol engine)

For these reasons I don't think that poor running of an engine with a
gasoline/10% alcohol is the problem. Water tends to cause starting
problems but once the engine is running at high speed the water tends
to disperse ( not dissolve ) and go through the engine with the
gasoline.

There may be several reasons for the stalling problem. Most likely the
engines are starved of fuel when revved. Since it occurs on both
engines it may be a simple as some blockage in the fuel line that
allows some fuel to get through, enough for idle, but not enough for a
high rev. S I would look for the problem in the fuel filters, fuel
line, fuel pump etc

Immiscible liquids are liquids that do not dissolve in one another.

so? green traffic lights mean "go", but so what?

Some
combinations of liquids mix in all proportions, e.g. alcohol and water, mix
at some compositions but not at others, or hardly mix at all,

you might wish to check your "facts" with a chemist next time before you open
your mouth.

e.g. gasoline
and water.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
don't tell it to me, tell to those with PhD's in chemistry.

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning
there
is no
such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

Ethanol, or alcohol, mixes with any water. It's used up here by some
in
the
winter (auto engines) to pick up any condensation and so on to prevent
gas
line freeze. So, if the alcohol in the mix becomes saturated (with
water), a
drop in temperature will cause that water to be dumped, leaving the
water
in
the fuel system ... especially not good in injected engines. If that's
what's happening, maybe a water separator mounted close to the engine
might
be an idea? The dumping of water by saturated ethanol fuel caused by a
drop
in temperature is a fact ... but a 10% mix ... ???

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved.
My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good
for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

does anyone remember "green bug juice" racing fuel? Sometimes known as "canned
horsepower"?



You can use straight ethanol if you want ..... but you have to change
the jets in a carb or change the 'open' interval in a TBI or Injection
system. Ethanol burns hotter and more completely but requires a much
richer (fuel/air ratio) mixture. For simple injection systems all that
needed is to increase the fuel 'rail' pressure a bit to affect MORE
fuel pressure to the injector(s). For a carburated engine the old
'rule of thumb' when rejetting was to double the orfice diameter when
running on straight ETOH .... thats 180 proof, hic, ..... *;‹s
Depending on the coloric value of the fuel, 90% ETOH required 4 times
the volumetric flow in comparison to 100 Octane gasoline.

For the original poster who was complaing of hesitation, etc. with ETOH
10% ... you need to change the injector 'open' interval value or
consider changing jets to affect a richer mixture.


In article , JAXAshby
wrote:

Aside from that you should never use ethanol fuel in 2 strokes.


we used to mix ethanol into the gas in our outboards when I was kid to
increase
hp (local law limited hp to kids under 12 to 10) and it made our boats go
faster. why can't you use ethanol in 2 strokes?

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."