I am talking about Minnesota and upper Wisconsin. I, too, saw many times a
can or two of Heet thaw out a frozen gas line.

"My advice, sir, don't forget your De-Icer" was long an advertising slogan for
Standard Oil. Eventually, all petro companies added alcohol to wintertime gas.

Ever hear of Eureka or Durrand or Lykens or Frederic or Wayzata or Plymouth or
Dinkytown?

That stuff we were always using up in Minnesota. It came in a 10 oz or
so can, it was called "Heet". The gasline between the tank and the
engine was where the water would collect and freeze. You'd dump in a
can or two of Heet, go away for awhile, then come back and start the
engine.------You know, when I think about it, that doesn't make
sense.The correct way was to dump it in when you filled your tank, but
that implies having a plan, which usually wasn't the case 40 years
ago. Does anybody know if that stuff works after the fact, that is,
will it thaw a frozen line? I'm thinking yes. I remember 40's,
possibly 50 degrees below actual, not windchill. My first car, a '56
Rambler Super Cross Country, had clear vynil plastic covering the
seats. When I sat down on it, it was so cold it didn't just crack, the
whole front seat cover shattered like glass.

On 23 Sep 2004 12:12:48 -0700, (Matt Lang) wrote:

I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

There are, but tiny amounts. Gasoline is mostly hydrocarbon molecules,
which like the name implies, is only hydrogen and carbon atoms. There
are many of different types of hydrocarbon molecules in typical
gasoline. However, there are also trace amounts of other compounds in
there, some of which contain oxygen atoms as well as sulphur, nitrogen,
some metals ...

Steve

"My advice, sir, don't forget your De-Icer"

actually, "My advice, sir, get De-Icer."

With the stuff you get from the gas pump, ya, there is oxygen in the
formula. It is being put there by design for pollution purposes (EPA
mandates) and for economic reasons (sometimes its cheaper to blend straight
gas with something). At a chemical level, gasoline does not contain oxygen.
The key word is formula.

If only the powers that be would quit changing the formula. Carbs are
limited range animals that can't fully handle all that difference. Engines
demand a specific ratio of hydrocarbons to oxygen to produce optimum burn
(or a richer mixture for optimum power). With a constantly changing formula,
it becomes harder or impossible to adjust a carb to produce that optimum.

For more info on gas see
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/gasoline1.htm
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc.../chem99658.htm
http://www.smokemup.com/tech/fuels.php



"Matt Lang" wrote in message
om...
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message
...
One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along
with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen
and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.
No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and
sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved.
My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:28:58 GMT,
Rich Hampel wrote:
Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.


So does this mean that a 55 gal drum of water, will form an emulsion
when you add 1 drop of Ethanol to it? this doesn't make sense.

Surely there's some point at which adding more water to the ethanol will
leave a non-emulsified amount of water?



In article
ble.rogers.com,
Bowgus wrote:

Wrong.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
alcohol and water are 100% missible (sp?) with each other, meaning
there is no such thing as a water saturated alcohol solution.

--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Proud Member of THRUSH:
the Technological Hierarchy for the Removal of Undesirables
and the Subjugation of Humanity

Uhhh, kinda embarrassed. Too long since high school, should have done my
research before spouting off... I'll back the other Matt now. Cs&Hs, no Os
until you get into the additives etc.

Been fooling around with wood chemistry too much.

surfnturf

snip the embarassment
"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)

WRONG! No matter how much alcohol you add to gasoline, once it is mixed, any
water in the alcohol will separate almost immediately. Water does nothing to
increase the octane of any fossil fuel. When water injection was used on
automobiles it was used to slow the burn time of cheap low octane gasoline. By
adding water you could keep your timing advanced to specs without the clatter
of a pinging engine from detonation on high compression engines. One primary
reason alcohol is added to fuel is its ability to retain more oxygen so when
added to gasoline you actually end up with a more efficent burn. Its an EPA
thing. Alcohol actually has a lower octane rating but because of its added
oxygenation properties, its benficial when added to gasoline.

From: Rich Hampel
Date: 9/21/04 11:26 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Nope 10% ethanol mixed with gasoline will result in the water component
forming into an emulsified form which doesnt separate readily.

Actually the additional water content helps increase the "octane"
number, and also helps to clean the piston ring grooves, blows the
carbon out of the combustion chamber, etc.
Some engines (back in 'muscle car days') used water injection to boost
power output while helping to cool the combustion chambers.

WRONG! No matter how much alcohol you add to gasoline, once it is mixed, any
water in the alcohol will separate almost immediately

where did you learn this? please be specific, as millions of drivers with
experience in cold winter states disagree with you.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:28:58 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

Sorry, Jax is totally correct. You are wrong.
Ethanol and water forms an azeotrope .... no 'free' water, just water
in an emulsified form .... beneficial to engine performance.

The first line should warn you that a mistake is in the offing.

Here are some definitions:
"azeotrope" a mixture of liquids with a constant boiling temperature
- because the vapor has the same composition as the liquid.

Contrast this with a mix of grain acohol (aka ethanol) and water:
when heated, the ethanol evolves preferentially: this process is
called "distillation"

An "emulsion" is a preparation of two immiscible liquids: though they
will not mutually dissolve, finely divided particles of one phase
remain stable in the other component, often with a milky appearance:
mayonnaise is a classic example.

The problem in the lines quoted is the confusion between water/oil or
water/gasoline mixes which CAN emulsify - and water/alcohol mixes
which DO NOT emulsify.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK